Diversity for diversity’s sake is not a good goal

[Lisa558]

I keep that evil thing in the timeout corner.

I keep him in timeout on and off. Sometimes when someone responds to one of his more disgusting comments, curiosity gets the best of me. It’s like looking at a car crash. You know the view will be stomach-turning, but you can’t help yourself.

Besides, he’s a great poster child for the hypocritical bigots on the left.

 

[OhPleaseJustQuit]

I keep him in timeout on and off. Sometimes when someone responds to one of his more disgusting comments, curiosity gets the best of me. It’s like looking at a car crash. You know the view will be stomach-turning, but you can’t help yourself.

Besides, he’s a great poster child for the hypocritical bigots on the left.

That's a very apt description.

 

[initforme]

I look at both the demonRats and the ReTHUGS as parties I could never ever be a part of. Corrupt. Both of them. Fells great to rip on them.

 

[JoeB131]

Odd how Joe, who says the most bigoted, disdainful things about Jews, calls ME a racist cow.

He’s one of the worst hypocrites on this forum.

Just saying.

Jews aren't a race
Religion is a choice.
If you choose to believe silly shit, then you will be judged for believing silly shit.

 

[JoeB131]

Agree. But to leftists like Joe, any criticism of Harris is due to racism. The fact that she is incompetent and unqualified is not to be mentioned.

That, btw, is what we can expect if she (G-d forbid) becomes president. She can be the biggest idiot, and answer every question with cackle and word salad, and if anyone points out the obvious - that she is completely unqualified - he or she will be called a racist.

Again, where were you when Dan Quayle was one heartbeat away from the presidency? You seem to want to go on and on about Harris, but, um you guys had someone who couldn't spell "Potato".

 

[Coyote]

Nope. You have to include test scores too. It provides a more complete picture.

The only thing test scores show these days is the ability to take a test and those who are affluent enough to afford all the extra tutoring and courses will be over represented and those who can’t will be less likely to get a college education. It negates automatically admitting the top 5 or 10% of every high school.

Interesting article here on how diversity INCREASED in this school when they took the top percent of all the area middle schools instead of using standard test scores Which had resulted in only two schools comprising almost the entire student body. I could support that.

Elite school accepts more blacks and Hispanics, fewer Asians

A premier public high school in northern Virginia has dramatically increased the number of Black and Hispanic students offered admission under a new application system that some Asian American parents say is discriminatory

abcnews.go.com

No, that’s not what that means. It means that the minimum GPA and test scores are reduced for black students.

I can’t do that because because they don’t report data by religion. Jews are lumped in with whites, who must score higher than blacks. A Jew with a 3.4 is NOT getting into any medical school in this country, where many blacks will.

Yes, they came of age before these programs, and thus they weren’t rejected from college in favor of blacks with poorer grades.

You just did the libersl thing again and called me a racist, so I’m not going to respond to your nasty accusations. Stop it.

Look, I think it is a fair question to ask when colleges also take gender into account as well as legacy admissions, and first generation college students, Hispanics and native Americans, but only blacks receive this extra scrutiny.

I showed them to you upthread - charts from the AAMC showing how much easier it is for blacks to get in to med school than whites, even when blacks have much worse scores. Blacks with a specific GPA and MCAT get in the majority of the time when those same measurements have the majority of whites kicked to the curb.

ok, I think I found at least one of your posts with an article from EOC. EOC seems to be a rightwing site with the usual rightwing fodder. It is a bit disconcerting to see it claiming to want a color blind society yet linking to an article that seems to suggest black students should be shunted off to vocational schools because they are more likely to have “inflated“ highschool diplomas.

It‘s time for liberals to stop employing racist policies when selecting students for admission, and intentionally divising false tests designed specifically for blacks to score higher.

What false tests?

What about Harvard and their “personality test,” which they used to reject highly qualified Asians? They said Asians scored higher on “unlikeability.” It‘s pretty dammed racist when leftist educators design a completely subjective test designed so that the unwanted race - Asians in this case - are judged to score lower, and thus they can reject them?

It would be racist if it were designed to exclude Asians. I don’t think it is, but…I do think it is an unfair assessment tool. To claim it is designed to “exclude” an unwanted race is patently false. Schools have a right to use a variety of metrics beyond strict academics to select their student body, they have a right to strive to have a diverse student body whether it is racial, ethnic, economic, religion, or gender. What rightists are trying to do is restrict or eliminate that but only in some schools. Harvard is a private school.

(My doctor is Asian, and she is the BEST doctor I’ve had since I graduated from the pediatrician’s office.)

I have had good doctors of all types

 

[Coyote]

Coyote

Whenever you prioritize the selection of managers, or base promotions, on factors other than competence and ability, you likely don’t end up with the best.

And it doesn’t just have to be about race. I worked for a company that was very big on gays, and to a lesser extent blacks. If you were gay, your odds for getting hired, or getting promoted, were significantly higher than if you were straight. (Word got around, and the place was about 30% gay.) And if you were gay AND black, you were golden - promoted right up the ladder to the top, regardless of ability.

The result? The most bloated, mismanaged place I ever worked. The white and/or straight subordinates to the incompetent black and/or gay managers ended up doing their jobs, and making the decisions they were unable to.

The turnover among the white and straight subordinates was massive - and there was nobody who remained after a few years. In the meantime, there were managers there who had been there for 15 years and more, and why? Because they knew they couldn’t get an equivalent job elsewhere.

Most mismanaged company I ever worked for.

My answer to that is “it depends”. There I more to a successful hire than strict merit. There is also how they will fit in to the company culture. We’ve had hires that ticked all the boxes for credentials but we’re nightmares to work with. We’ve had hires heavily weighted towards under represented groups over credentials who were disasters. We’ve also had hires of under represented groups who were just fine.

 

[Lisa558]

The only thing test scores show these days is the ability to take a test and those who are affluent enough to afford all the extra tutoring and courses will be over represented and those who can’t will be less likely to get a college education. It negates automatically admitting the top 5 or 10% of every high school.

That’s why it’s done high school by high school. The poor black kids (you only care about blacks, obviously) in DC’s 8th District, for example, are almost all impoverished kids living with welfare mothers - and nobody has any money for test prep. They compete with their own cohort.

Now the rich white liberals in Bethesda, MD? They have the money to send little Susie and Bob to test prep, but the affluent students all compete among themselves.

Interesting article here on how diversity INCREASED in this school when they took the top percent of all the area middle schools instead of using standard test scores Which had resulted in only two schools comprising almost the entire student body. I could support that.

Elite school accepts more blacks and Hispanics, fewer Asians

A premier public high school in northern Virginia has dramatically increased the number of Black and Hispanic students offered admission under a new application system that some Asian American parents say is discriminatory

abcnews.go.com

OMG…..are you kidding me?! All you’re saying is that the elite high school was able to slide in more blacks and reject more Asians when they eliminated the difficult admissions test - which was by DESIGN! They leftist educators were upset that there were too many smart Asians acing the test, so they figured they’d get rid of it as a way to justify getting rid of more of them so they could get in more blacks!

And you are not reading what I’m posting, and I’m losing patience. You are so focused on “more diversity” as a goal that you are ignoring that what the TJ high school did - devise a policy with the end goal of keeping out more Asians and sliding in more blacks - was ruled ILLEGAL DISCRIMINATION in Court!!

Look, I think it is a fair question to ask when colleges also take gender into account as well as legacy admissions, and first generation college students, Hispanics and native Americans, but only blacks receive this extra scrutiny.

ok, I think I found at least one of your posts with an article from EOC. EOC seems to be a rightwing site with the usual rightwing fodder. It is a bit disconcerting to see it claiming to want a color blind society yet linking to an article that seems to suggest black students should be shunted off to vocational schools because they are more likely to have “inflated“ highschool diplomas.

The article didn’t suggest that blacks should be shunted off to vocational,schools. Theee you go with your accusations of racism again. All the article is doing is pointing out the truth - that blacks with a specific GPA and test scores are very likely to get into med school while whites and Asians with the identical scores are likely to get rejected. But shhhhh….can’t say that.

You leftists still want a racist policy that favors blacks, and then deny that standards are lowered for blacks to provide that favoritism. You can’t have it both ways.

What false tests?


It would be racist if it were designed to exclude Asians. I don’t think it is, but…I do think it is an unfair assessment tool. To claim it is designed to “exclude” an unwanted race is patently false. Schools have a right to use a variety of metrics beyond strict academics to select their student body, they have a right to strive to have a diverse student body whether it is racial, ethnic, economic, religion, or gender. What rightists are trying to do is restrict or eliminate that but only in some schools. Harvard is a private school.

I have had good doctors of all types

 

[Lisa558]

Coyote

The rest of your post didn’t come out, so I respond to your last point here.

YES, the liberals at TJ High School eliminated the test to get rid of high-scoring Asians and get in more blacks, That YOU don’t think so is irrelevant. A Court ruled that the educators DID alter admissions standards with the specific goal to get rid of the “excess” of Asians and get in blacks - and that it was racist, and ILLEGAL.

Racism is racism. Being racist against Asians is no more acceptable than being racist against blacks. You liberals need to grasp that concept.

 

[Coyote]

That’s why it’s done high school by high school. The poor black kids (you only care about blacks, obviously) in DC’s 8th District, for example, are almost all impoverished kids living with welfare mothers - and nobody has any money for test prep. They compete with their own cohort.

I care about all of them, but given education is still the best way to get out of poverty, I think it is particularly important in for first generation students. (Btw…most of Harvard’s 2022 black freshmen are first Gen).

OMG…..are you kidding me?! All you’re saying is that the elite high school was able to slide in more blacks and reject more Asians when they eliminated the difficult admissions test - which was by DESIGN! They leftist educators were upset that there were too many smart Asians acing the test, so they figured they’d get rid of it as a way to justify getting rid of more of them so they could get in more blacks!

Why are you obsessing about them “getting in more blacks”? They are taking the top percent from every school, surely that is a good thing? Why should only those who can afford all the test prep and extra tutoring be the only ones to get in? You just said you supported idea of taking the top percentages and now you suddenly don’t?

And you are not reading what I’m posting, and I’m losing patience. You are so focused on “more diversity” as a goal that you are ignoring that what the TJ high school did - devise a policy with the end goal of keeping out more Asians and sliding in more blacks - was ruled ILLEGAL DISCRIMINATION in Court!!

And it is being appealed.

If taking the top percent of every school is “discriminatory” because it favors blacks then so is basing it on standardized test scores because that favors Asians.

The article didn’t suggest that blacks should be shunted off to vocational,schools. Theee you go with your accusations of racism again. All the article is doing is pointing out the truth - that blacks with a specific GPA and test scores are very likely to get into med school while whites and Asians with the identical scores are likely to get rejected. But shhhhh….can’t say that.

You leftists still want a racist policy that favors blacks, and then deny that standards are lowered for blacks to provide that favoritism. You can’t have it both ways.

Kind of sounds like you rightists favor a policy which keeps out blacks by basing it solely on test scores.

 

[JoeB131]

YES, the liberals at TJ High School eliminated the test to get rid of high-scoring Asians and get in more blacks, That YOU don’t think so is irrelevant. A Court ruled that the educators DID alter admissions standards with the specific goal to get rid of the “excess” of Asians and get in blacks - and that it was racist, and ILLEGAL.

Racism is racism. Being racist against Asians is no more acceptable than being racist against blacks. You liberals need to grasp that concept.

Nobody brought in Asians in chains.
There was never a clause in the constitution counting Asians as 3/5th of a white person.
Nobody created a system of discrimination against Asians.
There was never a KKK analogy terrorizing Asians in their homes.
There were not laws passed to keep Asians from marrying white people, like there were for blacks until 1969.

Again, the problem is that we look at Asians as that "Ideal" minority. The one that doesn't complain. Forgetting that they never encountered the obstacles that other minorities have faced.

The problem isn't just the outright racists (like you), it's the levels of institutionalized racism in academia, business, law enforcement that most people don't even notice.

I don't know of anyone who admits to be a racist, even when they are complaining about "the blacks" constantly.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote

The rest of your post didn’t come out, so I respond to your last point here.

YES, the liberals at TJ High School eliminated the test to get rid of high-scoring Asians and get in more blacks, That YOU don’t think so is irrelevant. A Court ruled that the educators DID alter admissions standards with the specific goal to get rid of the “excess” of Asians and get in blacks - and that it was racist, and ILLEGAL.

Racism is racism. Being racist against Asians is no more acceptable than being racist against blacks. You liberals need to grasp that concept.

It is also being appealed, let’s wait and see what happens there.

I don’t agree that taking the top percent of every school is in and of itself racist. If so, then the state Texas is racist because that is what they do for their state universities and colleges. Maybe you conservatives need to rethink this.

 

[Coyote]

Nobody brought in Asians in chains.
There was never a clause in the constitution counting Asians as 3/5th of a white person.
Nobody created a system of discrimination against Asians.
There was never a KKK analogy terrorizing Asians in their homes.
There were not laws passed to keep Asians from marrying white people, like there were for blacks until 1969.

Again, the problem is that we look at Asians as that "Ideal" minority. The one that doesn't complain. Forgetting that they never encountered the obstacles that other minorities have faced.

The problem isn't just the outright racists (like you), it's the levels of institutionalized racism in academia, business, law enforcement that most people don't even notice.

I don't know of anyone who admits to be a racist, even when they are complaining about "the blacks" constantly.

In all fairness, Asian Americans have encountered significant historic discrimination: Chinese exclusion act, interment of Japanese Americans.

 

[Lisa558]

I care about all of them, but given education is still the best way to get out of poverty, I think it is particularly important in for first generation students. (Btw…most of Harvard’s 2022 black freshmen are first Gen).



Why are you obsessing about them “getting in more blacks”? They are taking the top percent from every school, surely that is a good thing? Why should only those who can afford all the test prep and extra tutoring be the only ones to get in? You just said you supported idea of taking the top percentages and now you suddenly don’t?



And it is being appealed.

If taking the top percent of every school is “discriminatory” because it favors blacks then so is basing it on standardized test scores because that favors Asians.


Kind of sounds like you rightists favor a policy which keeps out blacks by basing it solely on test scores.

I’m about ready to give up on you. You‘re out with the “racist!” accusation and so stuck in your own leftist world that you can’t even comprehend what I’m saying.

For the last time, it’s not about just those who can afford the test prep! It goes school by school, so the schools in the poor districts do NOT compete with the affluent students.

And finally, do you not even hear yourself?? The competitive admissions test favors Asians, so let’s get rid of the test? Good way to race to the bottom, by eliminating entrance standards and tests, because “diversity” is all that counts.

And you SEE what happens when “diversity” is the ultimate goal. We end up with an idiot for VP because the most important thing was that we get in a black.

You leftists won’t be satisfied until the most intelligent, disciplined, hard-working, and motivated students are kept out, and admissions standards be adjusted to let in more blacks and fewer Asians regardless of ability.

And while you yell “racist” at anyone who doesn’t think standards should be modified to achieve a specific racial quota, those of us with logic can see who the REAL racists are.

Good thing we didn’t have this nonsense when my poor but bright parents went to college. They aced the test that got them in, but these days….the test would be eliminated to get in more blacks, and my parents would have had much worse lives. But hey, they were white, so they could just be shunted off to vocational school.

 

[Circe]

Interesting article here on how diversity INCREASED in this school when they took the top percent of all the area middle schools instead of using standard test scores Which had resulted in only two schools comprising almost the entire student body. I could support that.

Quite interesting. The Asians want the pool to be larger, because their scores are generally higher. If the pool is quite local, school by school, Asians are competing with each other but not with all-black schools. I think I could support that, too. It's a creative idea for a hard problem about meritocracy.

Rethink, after reading more of the thread. If the area the school draws from is overwhelmingly poor black schools, obviously taking the top 1% of each school would result in a heavily black school, which would be unacceptable to white and Asian parents and so would change the nature of the school entirely (I assume this is about that Bronx school that historically served the brightest New York children, IIRC). And would leave a whole lot of very smart Asian and Jewish white kids not able to get in, though their tests scored much higher than most of the black 1% kids. They'd have to go to private schools.

Well, this is a matter for the city to decide. It is too bad that public schools can't serve very gifted children, but if the city politicians decide they want to change the nature of the school, they can, that's all. Cream always floats and very smart kids will probably do all right. That's why God made private schools anyway, for able kids to get away from such social catastrophes as we are going through now.

 

[Circe]

Schools have a right to use a variety of metrics beyond strict academics to select their student body, they have a right to strive to have a diverse student body whether it is racial, ethnic, economic, religion, or gender. What rightists are trying to do is restrict or eliminate that but only in some schools. Harvard is a private school.

I agree with this. I don't see why any school can't use legacy enrollments if they want, or choose on the basis of ANY characteristic --- race, sports, Christianity. And many do: some are black colleges, some Christian colleges. These are businesses and I know that there is an historical basis for the meritocracy that doesn't go back past the early 20th century. The meritocracy idea was purely to let in Jews, on the basis of their high intelligence (great historical article on this in the New Yorker years ago that I read), and in switching criteria, it seemed to mean the colleges served the country by sucking out all the smart kids and spitting them into the corporations, law schools, government. And that IS the reputation Harvard has had ever since, having the smartest students by testing. At least till all the affirmative action mess, so now no one believes they are the smartest.

But there is no reason this meritocracy thing has to go on forever! The colleges don't HAVE to do it, and many don't. Smart kids don't have a right to these coveted places: colleges can give them to whomever, Chinese and Indians, and they do, by the thousands, because these people can pay, too many Americans can't. If they want to give all the places to blacks, why shouldn't they? My old college is predominantly black and Indian and Chinese now, it seems ---- sad, for me, but they get to do that. They won't get so much alumnae money, however.

Colleges have become so ideologically corrupted that I am hoping more and more people will just not bother with that pointless credentialling. The credentialling was just to keep out blacks anyway, by hiring only on the basis of having a degree, which most blacks can't get. That's four wasted years getting indoctrinated with Marxism for no point good for the student. Better just go get a job.

 

[JoeB131]

In all fairness, Asian Americans have encountered significant historic discrimination: Chinese exclusion act, interment of Japanese Americans.

again, nothing compared to what blacks have gone through.

 

[JoeB131]

I’m about ready to give up on you. You‘re out with the “racist!” accusation and so stuck in your own leftist world that you can’t even comprehend what I’m saying.

The sad thing is we comprehend what you say perfectly well, Lizard88.

For the last time, it’s not about just those who can afford the test prep! It goes school by school, so the schools in the poor districts do NOT compete with the affluent students.

And finally, do you not even hear yourself?? The competitive admissions test favors Asians, so let’s get rid of the test? Good way to race to the bottom, by eliminating entrance standards and tests, because “diversity” is all that counts.

And you SEE what happens when “diversity” is the ultimate goal. We end up with an idiot for VP because the most important thing was that we get in a black.

Harris is far more qualified than Dan Quayle or Sarah Palin, people who were picked because they appealed to Christian Funditards. Harris was picked for a good reason. Blacks stayed home in 2016, and as a result, we ended up with Trump. Biden gave them a good reason to come out and vote.

Come to think of it, most of our politicians are idiots. Trump is an idiot. Biden is an idiot. Most member of congress are idiots, but their idiocy is rarely put on full display because they aren't on TV every night. We don't elect smart people not because smart people aren't there, but because we tend to vote for superficial reasons.

And while you yell “racist” at anyone who doesn’t think standards should be modified to achieve a specific racial quota, those of us with logic can see who the REAL racists are.

Well, you kind of are, because you seem to think that diversity means "not qualified". Anyone with a high GPA and a reasonably good test score is going to be considered. If you take a black kid with a 1500 SAT and a 3.2 GPA, he's still going to be pretty bright. So the Asian kid doesn't get picked for the Elite school with his 1600 SAT and 3.6GPA, he gets to go to a slightly less prestigious state school.

Here's the more important question, why have we allowed the "Elite" schools to have an outsized influence in politics and business?

Good thing we didn’t have this nonsense when my poor but bright parents went to college. They aced the test that got them in, but these days….the test would be eliminated to get in more blacks, and my parents would have had much worse lives. But hey, they were white, so they could just be shunted off to vocational school.

And so what if they were? We have 6000 colleges in this country, it's not like they didn't have other options, is it? You act like " Harvard" and "VOcational School" are the only choices on the menu.

I didn't get into an "elite" school (I applied to Annapolis), so instead I went to a state college, I worked two minimum wage jobs and joined the National Guard to pay for it, and during the time I was in college, I had to deal with both parents going through terminal illnesses. So the last thing I want to hear is someone whining, "I didn't get into an elite school because a black kid with a slightly lower test score got in!" Get back to me when you've encountered some real adversity, Princess.

 

[JoeB131]

I agree with this. I don't see why any school can't use legacy enrollments if they want, or choose on the basis of ANY characteristic --- race, sports, Christianity. And many do: some are black colleges, some Christian colleges. These are businesses and I know that there is an historical basis for the meritocracy that doesn't go back past the early 20th century. The meritocracy idea was purely to let in Jews, on the basis of their high intelligence (great historical article on this in the New Yorker years ago that I read), and in switching criteria, it seemed to mean the colleges served the country by sucking out all the smart kids and spitting them into the corporations, law schools, government. And that IS the reputation Harvard has had ever since, having the smartest students by testing. At least till all the affirmative action mess, so now no one believes they are the smartest.

Have you met graduates of "Christian Colleges"? Stupider people you can't hope to meet.

But there is no reason this meritocracy thing has to go on forever! The colleges don't HAVE to do it, and many don't. Smart kids don't have a right to these coveted places: colleges can give them to whomever, Chinese and Indians, and they do, by the thousands, because these people can pay, too many Americans can't. If they want to give all the places to blacks, why shouldn't they? My old college is predominantly black and Indian and Chinese now, it seems ---- sad, for me, but they get to do that. They won't get so much alumnae money, however.

Here's the thing. I went to the University of Illinois at Chicago, which was originally supposed to be the college for inner city youth, so they'd stop whining to get into Urbana where the white kids were. But then this funny thing happened. All the white kids who couldn't get into Urbana ended up there, too. So did the international students. So today, blacks make up less than 9% of UIC's enrollment. Tuition there is about 18,000 a year (compared to the $2000 a year it was when I went there.) so it ends up being priced out of the range of most inner city youth.

Colleges have become so ideologically corrupted that I am hoping more and more people will just not bother with that pointless credentialling. The credentialling was just to keep out blacks anyway, by hiring only on the basis of having a degree, which most blacks can't get. That's four wasted years getting indoctrinated with Marxism for no point good for the student. Better just go get a job.

I agree College is highly overrated. But we've also made it the ticket to the Middle Class in this country.

 

[initforme]

You leftists and you rightists shouldn't be in charge of anything.