Dissecting John Stossel's Anti-Communist Lies

[Red Front]

It worked for Russia.
Just look at how many men they landed on the Moon.
And all their exploration of Mars, Venus, Jupiter.......

You can hardly find a spot in the solar system that doesn't have a hammer and sickle planted on it.

LOL!

You gotta write for Colbert......You're fucking hilarious!!!!

You're smarter than that, you're just bitter. How old are you? 70, 87? The Western cold war propaganda really did a number on you. The US in the early 20th century already had at least a century of industrialization and development way ahead of Russia. Tsarist Russia was a midget, as far as its infrastructure and economy compared to the United States in the early 1900s. If you seriously and fairly consider all of the challenges that Russia had to overcome to become a world superpower, rivaling the US, you wouldn't be so unfair and arrogant.

Soviet Russia, from its inception, was invaded by foreign expeditions (the US and 14 other countries invaded Russia in 1918) and later suffered the heaviest casualties during WW2 (it also inflicted the most casualties against Nazi Germany than any other allied power). It survived the Cold War for 45 years, when just 25 years earlier it was a nation of mostly poor illiterate peasants. It just shows how much more efficient a socialist economy is. It's able to survive many things that would decimate most if not all capitalist-run countries for decades. China, Vietnam and Cuba continue to show the same endurance and potential for growth, despite adversity and sabotage.

WHAT ARE THE ACHIEVEMENTS OF THE USSR (UNION OF SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLICS)?

The Soviet Union got into space first before we did. They even launched the first manned missions, probes to the moon and Venus, and even built the first space stations:

10 Greastest Inventions Made By The Soviet Union

Below are ten Soviet inventions that have had a particular impact on health sciences, space exploration, and technology in everyday life.

www.worldatlas.com

The first nuclear electric plant was built by the Soviets.

Obninsk Nuclear Power Plant - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The first Tokamak fusion reactors as well:

Radware Bot Manager Captcha

iopscience.iop.org

Here is a list of many Russian inventions, including the inventions of the USSR:

Timeline of Russian innovation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Science and technology in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How can anyone pretend that the USSR didn't accomplish much? It did all of the above despite all of the challenges to its survival by the US and other countries that were doing everything possible to destroy it. Todd's arguments are disingenuous at best. He doesn't care what the facts are.

Here is some information on the Soviet Economy:

Rates of Growth of Labour Productivity Among Industrial Workers in the USSR and in Capitalist Countries (1923=100), (page 788).

Source:

Robert Maxwell (ed. and comp.), Information U.S.S.R.: An Authoritative Encyclopaedia about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Oxford, London, New York, Paris: Pergamon Press, 1962. xii + 982 pp. $30.00. | Slavic Review | Cambridge Core

Robert Maxwell (ed. and comp.), Information U.S.S.R.: An Authoritative Encyclopaedia about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Oxford, London, New York, Paris: Pergamon Press, 1962. xii + 982 pp. $30.00. - Volume 22 Issue 1

www.cambridge.org

Rates of Growth Of Industrial Production in the USSR and the USA (in percentages of 1913), (page 791).

Source:

Robert Maxwell (ed. and comp.), Information U.S.S.R.: An Authoritative Encyclopaedia about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Oxford, London, New York, Paris: Pergamon Press, 1962. xii + 982 pp. $30.00. | Slavic Review | Cambridge Core

Robert Maxwell (ed. and comp.), Information U.S.S.R.: An Authoritative Encyclopaedia about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Oxford, London, New York, Paris: Pergamon Press, 1962. xii + 982 pp. $30.00. - Volume 22 Issue 1

www.cambridge.org

Rates of growth of the national income of the USSR. Compared with the major capitalist countries (page 844)
​

Source:

Robert Maxwell (ed. and comp.), Information U.S.S.R.: An Authoritative Encyclopaedia about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Oxford, London, New York, Paris: Pergamon Press, 1962. xii + 982 pp. $30.00. | Slavic Review | Cambridge Core

Robert Maxwell (ed. and comp.), Information U.S.S.R.: An Authoritative Encyclopaedia about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Oxford, London, New York, Paris: Pergamon Press, 1962. xii + 982 pp. $30.00. - Volume 22 Issue 1

www.cambridge.org

National income calculated per capita (page 845)
​

Source:

Robert Maxwell (ed. and comp.), Information U.S.S.R.: An Authoritative Encyclopaedia about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Oxford, London, New York, Paris: Pergamon Press, 1962. xii + 982 pp. $30.00. | Slavic Review | Cambridge Core

Robert Maxwell (ed. and comp.), Information U.S.S.R.: An Authoritative Encyclopaedia about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Oxford, London, New York, Paris: Pergamon Press, 1962. xii + 982 pp. $30.00. - Volume 22 Issue 1

www.cambridge.org

Beginning in 1930, the course of the economy of the Soviet Union was guided by a series of five-year plans. By the 1950s, the Soviet Union had rapidly evolved from a mainly agrarian society into a major industrial power.[15] Its transformative capacity meant communism consistently appealed to the intellectuals of developing countries in Asia.[16] Impressive growth rates during the first three five-year plans (1928–1940) are particularly notable given that this period is nearly congruent with the Great Depression.[17] During this period, the Soviet Union saw rapid industrial growth while other regions were suffering from crisis.[18] The White House National Security Council of the United States described the continuing growth as a "proven ability to carry backward countries speedily through the crisis of modernization and industrialization".

The Soviet Union maintained itself as the world's second largest economy in both nominal and purchasing power parity values throughout the Cold War, when Japan's economy exceeded $3 trillion in nominal value.[24]


SOURCE: Economy of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

The above book debunks many of the myths about the collapse of the USSR

Read it here in PDF format:

https://valleysunderground.files.wordpress.com/2020/05/socialism-betrayed.pdf

Audio Version:



Information on the author..

Roger Keeran - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here are some interesting videos on the USSR:







​

Most of what you've learned about the USSR and communism here in the West is false, capitalist-imperialist propaganda. Here are more books you can read:

Khrushchev Lied (Grover Furr) (z-lib.org).pdf

drive.google.com

Livro-28-DOUGLAS-TOTTLE-â-FOME-FRAUDE-E-FASCISMO (1).pdf

drive.google.com

M. P. Britt is under construction

mpbritt.com

Todd, again for the 18th time, answer the following question. What is the capitalist solution to the replacement of wage labor with advanced 21st-century automation technology? Stop running and answer it.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You're smarter than that, you're just bitter. How old are you? 70, 87? The Western cold war propaganda really did a number on you. The US in the early 20th century already had at least a century of industrialization and development way ahead of Russia. Tsarist Russia was a midget, as far as its infrastructure and economy compared to the United States in the early 1900s. When you seriously and fairly consider all of the challenges that Russia had to overcome to become a world superpower, rivaling the US, you wouldn't be so unfair and arrogant.

Soviet Russia, from its inception, was invaded by foreign expeditions (the US and 14 other countries invaded Russia in 1918) and later suffered the heaviest casualties during WW2 (it also inflicted the most against Nazi Germany).
It survived the Cold War for 45 years, when just 25 years earlier it was a nation of mostly poor illiterate peasants. It just shows how much more efficient a socialist economy is. It's able to survive many things that would decimate a normal, capitalist-run country for decades. China, Vietnam and Cuba continue to show the same endurance and potential for growth, despite adversity and sabotage.


WHAT ARE THE ACHIEVEMENTS OF THE USSR (UNION OF SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLICS)?

The Soviet Union got into space first before we did. They even launched the first manned missions, probes to the moon and Venus, and even built the first space stations:

10 Greastest Inventions Made By The Soviet Union

Below are ten Soviet inventions that have had a particular impact on health sciences, space exploration, and technology in everyday life.

www.worldatlas.com

The first nuclear electric plant was built by the Soviets.

Obninsk Nuclear Power Plant - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The first Tokamak fusion reactors as well:

Radware Bot Manager Captcha

iopscience.iop.org

Here is a list of many Russian inventions, including the inventions of the USSR:

Timeline of Russian innovation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Science and technology in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How can anyone pretend that the USSR didn't accomplish much? It did all of the above despite all of the challenges to its survival by the US and other countries that were doing everything possible to destroy it. Todd's arguments are disingenuous at best. He doesn't care what the facts are.

Here is some information on the Soviet Economy:

View attachment 727084​

Rates of Growth of Labour Productivity Among Industrial Workers in the USSR and in Capitalist Countries (1923=100), (page 788).

Robert Maxwell (ed. and comp.), Information U.S.S.R.: An Authoritative Encyclopaedia about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Oxford, London, New York, Paris: Pergamon Press, 1962. xii + 982 pp. $30.00. | Slavic Review | Cambridge Core

Robert Maxwell (ed. and comp.), Information U.S.S.R.: An Authoritative Encyclopaedia about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Oxford, London, New York, Paris: Pergamon Press, 1962. xii + 982 pp. $30.00. - Volume 22 Issue 1

www.cambridge.org

View attachment 727091​

Rates of Growth Of Industrial Production in the USSR and the USA (in percentages of 1913), (page 791).

Robert Maxwell (ed. and comp.), Information U.S.S.R.: An Authoritative Encyclopaedia about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Oxford, London, New York, Paris: Pergamon Press, 1962. xii + 982 pp. $30.00. | Slavic Review | Cambridge Core

Robert Maxwell (ed. and comp.), Information U.S.S.R.: An Authoritative Encyclopaedia about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Oxford, London, New York, Paris: Pergamon Press, 1962. xii + 982 pp. $30.00. - Volume 22 Issue 1

www.cambridge.org

View attachment 727092
Rates of growth of the national income of the USSR. Compared with the major capitalist countries (page 844)
​

Robert Maxwell (ed. and comp.), Information U.S.S.R.: An Authoritative Encyclopaedia about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Oxford, London, New York, Paris: Pergamon Press, 1962. xii + 982 pp. $30.00. | Slavic Review | Cambridge Core

Robert Maxwell (ed. and comp.), Information U.S.S.R.: An Authoritative Encyclopaedia about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Oxford, London, New York, Paris: Pergamon Press, 1962. xii + 982 pp. $30.00. - Volume 22 Issue 1

www.cambridge.org

View attachment 727093
National income calculated per capita (page 845)
​

Robert Maxwell (ed. and comp.), Information U.S.S.R.: An Authoritative Encyclopaedia about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Oxford, London, New York, Paris: Pergamon Press, 1962. xii + 982 pp. $30.00. | Slavic Review | Cambridge Core

Robert Maxwell (ed. and comp.), Information U.S.S.R.: An Authoritative Encyclopaedia about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Oxford, London, New York, Paris: Pergamon Press, 1962. xii + 982 pp. $30.00. - Volume 22 Issue 1

www.cambridge.org

View attachment 727095
Beginning in 1930, the course of the economy of the Soviet Union was guided by a series of five-year plans. By the 1950s, the Soviet Union had rapidly evolved from a mainly agrarian society into a major industrial power.[15] Its transformative capacity meant communism consistently appealed to the intellectuals of developing countries in Asia.[16] Impressive growth rates during the first three five-year plans (1928–1940) are particularly notable given that this period is nearly congruent with the Great Depression.[17] During this period, the Soviet Union saw rapid industrial growth while other regions were suffering from crisis.[18] The White House National Security Council of the United States described the continuing growth as a "proven ability to carry backward countries speedily through the crisis of modernization and industrialization", and the impoverished base upon which the five-year plans sought to build meant that at the commencement of Operation Barbarossa in 1941 the country was still poor.[19][20]

The Soviet Union maintained itself as the world's second largest economy in both nominal and purchasing power parity values throughout the Cold War, when Japan's economy exceeded $3 trillion in nominal value.[24]


SOURCE: Economy of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

View attachment 727098

The above book debunks many of the myths about the collapse of the USSR

Read it here in PDF format:

https://valleysunderground.files.wordpress.com/2020/05/socialism-betrayed.pdf

Audio Version:



Information on the author..

Roger Keeran - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here are some interesting videos on the USSR:







​

Most of what you've learned about the USSR and communism here in the West is false, capitalist-imperialist propaganda. Here are more books you can read:

View attachment 727099



View attachment 727101

Khrushchev Lied (Grover Furr) (z-lib.org).pdf

drive.google.com

View attachment 727103

Livro-28-DOUGLAS-TOTTLE-â-FOME-FRAUDE-E-FASCISMO (1).pdf

drive.google.com

M. P. Britt is under construction

mpbritt.com

You're smarter than that, you're just bitter.

I'm bitter? Because of all the Soviet success in space? LOL!

It survived the Cold War for 45 years, when just 25 years earlier it was a nation of mostly poor illiterate peasants.

And 100 years later, it's mostly poor, illiterate peasants.

It just shows how much more efficient a socialist economy is.

Right. USSR, Cuba, Venezuela. The first word that comes to mind is efficient. LOL!

Here is some information on the Soviet Economy:

They were very efficient at producing fake stats. Building their economy, not so much.

The Ukrainian famine was a myth? LOL!

Did Stalin team up with Hitler to divide Poland......or was that a myth as well?

 

[Wyatt earp]

It's not how you start the race, it's how you finish it that matters. It took centuries for capitalism to replace chattel slavery and feudalism, and it will take time for socialism and then communism to replace capitalism. It's just a matter of time.

The most idiotic statement, Marxist communist only exalts on paper

 

[Red Front]

The beautiful anthem of both the USSR and East Germany:

You're smarter than that, you're just bitter.

I'm bitter? Because of all the Soviet success in space? LOL!

It survived the Cold War for 45 years, when just 25 years earlier it was a nation of mostly poor illiterate peasants.

And 100 years later, it's mostly poor, illiterate peasants.

It just shows how much more efficient a socialist economy is.

Right. USSR, Cuba, Venezuela. The first word that comes to mind is efficient. LOL!

Here is some information on the Soviet Economy:

They were very efficient at producing fake stats. Building their economy, not so much.

The Ukrainian famine was a myth? LOL!

Did Stalin team up with Hitler to divide Poland......or was that a myth as well?

Again, more disengenious silly responses. Whoever is genuinly seeking the truth right now isn't impressed with your gas lighting and dishonest critique. Ukraine in the early 30s did suffer a famine, as it has for the last several centuries, every few years. What is a myth and fraud is the claim that the Soviet government deliberatly caused it and that the Kulaks or wealthy fuedal ruling class, didn't contribute to that famine, by burning crops, sabotaging farming equipment, murdering communist farmers. There are many pictures that were falsely attributed to that famine that had nothing to do witth it. They're pictures of Russians who suffered through a serious famine durring the civil war in the early 20s.

Notice how Todd completely ignores all of the legitimate, actual achievments of the USSR and never mentions all of the challenges and obstacles the Soviets had to overcome as a new developing nation. It's the height of hubris and cynicism. I wouldn't be surprised if he's of the wealthy American ruling class. It doesn't matter how much evidence is presented, he will simply take out his magical wand and flippantly, magically just dismiss everything. He claims figures and stats collected by UN studies, Western scholars, the US government, are all wrong.

So his position rests on "Nah those stats are all wrong. All figures are fixed". So your position is unfalsifiable. No evidence in 2022 would suffice.

Notice how Todd ignores the last question in that post. I've already asked him literally, about 18 times, to provide us all with the capitalist solution to the replacement of wage labor with advanced 21st-century automation technology. He refuses to answer that question because he's smart enough to know that the solution is the socialization and democratization of production. The people take collective ownership of the means of production and produce everything that they consume to meet their needs rather than for profit. Provide the capitalist alternative to what I just asserted.

 

[Red Front]

The most idiotic statement, Marxist communist only exalts on paper

What do you mean exactly by "only exalts on paper"? How does that apply to my statement that it took centuries for capitalism to replace feudalism? You're challenging that fact? Why does socialism have to replace capitalism in one decisive victory and swoop of the sword to prove its validity and effectiveness? Only communists are held to such a high, super-human standard. There's no process of development or room for error. We can't fall and then get back up and try again, with a new approach and what we've learned from our past mistakes. No communists can't do that.

According to the defenders of capitalism, is communism failed to replace capitalism in the past, it will always fail to do it in the future. That's their fuzzy logic.

 

[Batcat]

No need, America is my home. Perhaps capitalists and their fans can go somewhere else? That would be ideal. Capitalists leave, and socialists stay.

Most likely we will end up with a form of cuddly capitalism a little more advanced than the one we have today.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The beautiful anthem of both the USSR and East Germany:

Again, more disengenious silly responses. Whoever is genuinly seeking the truth right now isn't impressed with your gas lighting and dishonest critique. Ukraine in the early 30s did suffer a famine, as it has for the last several centuries, every few years. What is a myth and fraud is that the Soviet government deliberatly caused it and that the Kulaks or wealthy fuedal ruling class, didn't contribute to that famine, by burning crops, sabotaging farming equipment, murdering communist farmers. There are many pictures that were falsely attributed to that famine that had nothing to do witth it. They're pictures of Russians who suffered through a serious famine durring the civil war in the early 20s.

Notice how Todd completely ignores all of the legitimate, actual achievments of the USSR and never mentions all of the challenges and obstacles the Soviets had to overcome as a new developing nation. It's the height of hubris and cynicism. I wouldn't be surprised if he's of the wealthy American ruling class. It doesn't matter how much evidence is presented, he will simply take out his magical wand and flippantly, magically just dismiss everything. He claims figures and stats collected by UN studies, Western scholars, the US government, are all wrong.

So his position rests on "Nah those stats are all wrong. All figures are fixed". So your position is unfalsifiable. No evidence in 2022 would suffice.

Notice how Todd completely ignores all of the legitimate, actual achievments of the USSR

Well, they did enslave Eastern Europe for 45 years.

You never said, did Stalin team up with Hitler to divide Poland......or was that a myth as well?

He claims figures and stats collected by UN studies, Western scholars, the US government, are all wrong.

Outrageous! Russia would never lie to the UN. The UN will find the truth, no matter what it takes.

LOL!

 

[Red Front]

Most likely we will end up with a form of cuddly capitalism a little more advanced than the one we have today.

That entails an expensive monthly government bailout in the form of a universal income to keep capitalism on life support. This could happen until advanced automation replaces a significant % of wage labor, then the "cuddly" is replaced with techno-feudalism. People under capitalism when replaced with advanced technology, become worthless and are eventually consigned to the compost heap. A Malthusian techno-feudalism, that will render everyone, at best a serf and at worse, to the pearly gates.

The better solution is that we all own the means of production together and we organize our economy rationally employing the latest technology.

 

[hadit]

You're claiming that I proposed an undemocratic system of government yet I didn't. So where is the supposed "inaccuracy"? Just in your mind? How do you figure that a government that allows the people to elect its functionaries
isn't a democracy? Not only would the American people directly elect their government representatives but they would have the power to recall and replace them at any time. The constituency (i.e. the people of a particular district) organizes a commission to investigate, question, and determine whether that politician should remain in office or not. If the commission determines that the person in office isn't fit for service they're recalled and replaced with someone else.

If the United States adopts communism, there will be no other country bullying it around as the United States did with Soviet Russia and other socialist countries. If the US converts to communism, it would be the one big capitalist, imperialist bully becoming a communist, with all of his strength, resources..etc. There's no capitalist-run country that could hurt the US, because "we're it", militarily.

If a poor, under-industrialized, agrarian society full of illiterate peasants as Russia was in the early 20th century, was able to become an industrial juggernaut and rival of the United States in less than 20 years, imagine what the US would accomplish if it adopted communism today? With our present technology and the fact that America is inhabited by the hardest-working labor force in the world.

If the US adopts socialism, we will be colonizing space in a couple of decades. We will have cities in space and we will be mining the asteroid belts in no time. We will advance exponentially in every field of science and technology. America will become orders of magnitude more powerful than it is today. There's no capitalist bully strongman in the world that will be able to encircle and threaten, much less invade the United States. No other country will be able to impose economic sanctions upon it. America would become an extremely modern, industrialized nation offering its citizens a very high standard of living. Russia and China, would be left in the dust, economically and militarily.

View attachment 727063
View attachment 727064​

And when the people vote to demolish communism in favor of Capitalism, you'll happily go along with the will of the people, right?

 

[Red Front]

And when the people vote to demolish communism in favor of Capitalism, you'll happily go along with the will of the people, right?

Yes, definitely. If the majority of the people choose to enslave themselves again, then that's their choice. A provision can be made, in the law that allows the people to adopt capitalism once again, to the extent that they choose. Perhaps they want to reinstate a monetary system and markets in the consumer goods sector, creating a mixed economy. A little capitalism with a lot of socialism, or a lot of capitalism with a little socialism. If they want to create socioeconomic classes again, where you have the wealthy ruling class/leisure class, at the top that owns practically everything and then below them the working class people selling their labor (their lives) to this small group of rich people. If the American people want that they'll have it.

Do you actually think that if the vast majority of Americans chose communism today at the ballot box, we would have communism in America? The big-money capitalists and their cronies would just say "Oh OK, the people want to own everything collectively as a community and take all of the oil, gas, the military-industrial complex, big pharma, the banks..etc, all of the major centers of economic power away from us. Yeah, why not? We love democracy, we'll allow the people to rule rather than us. Sure, sure, sounds good". Do you believe that? I have a bridge to sell you here in Brooklyn.

I would be in favor, in order to placate people like yourself, of including a provision in the law, that if the people want to enslave themselves again with capitalism, they can.

 

[hadit]

Yes, definitely. If the majority of the people choose to enslave themselves again, then that's their choice. A provision can be made, in the law that allows the people to adopt capitalism once again, to the extent that they choose. Perhaps they want to reinstate a monetary system and markets in the consumer goods sector, creating a mixed economy. A little capitalism with a lot of socialism, or a lot of capitalism with a little socialism. If they want to create socioeconomic classes again, where you have the wealthy ruling class/leisure class, at the top that owns practically everything and then below them the working class people selling their labor (their lives) to this small group of rich people. If the American people want that they'll have it.

Do you actually think that if the vast majority of Americans chose communism today at the ballot box, we would have communism in America? The big-money capitalists and their cronies would just say "Oh OK, the people want to own everything collectively as a community and take all of the oil, gas, the military-industrial complex, big pharma, the banks..etc, all of the major centers of economic power away from us. Yeah why not, we'll let them. We love democracy, we'll allow the people to rule rather than us. Sure, sure, sounds good". Do you believe that? I have a bridge to sell you here in Brooklyn.

I would be in favor, in order to placate people like yourself, of including a provision in the law, that if the people want to enslave themselves again with capitalism, they can.

Communism always ends up with a ruling elite class and the majority of the population as enslaved serfs, every time. There is no utopia where everyone owns everything, and everyone works hard for nothing. History shows that when you eliminate a man's profit motive, you also eliminate his desire to strive or innovate. Why work to get paid the same as your neighbor who doesn't even bother to go to a job? Now, stop and think for a moment instead of feeling things. Oil and gas? Started from Entrepeneur's discovering the products, then designing ways to extract them and get them to market. Many, many fortunes were lost before it became the giant it is today. Under communism, it never would have gotten off the ground. Pharma? Same thing. A few doctors took some folk remedies and figured out what in them was actually helping the sick and they figured out how to get the critical components to the people in a safe manner. Again, communism, not so much. Face it, communism lives off what it can scrounge and steal from Capitalism.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Communism always ends up with a ruling elite class and the majority of the population as enslaved serfs, every time. There is no utopia where everyone owns everything, and everyone works hard for nothing. History shows that when you eliminate a man's profit motive, you also eliminate his desire to strive or innovate. Why work to get paid the same as your neighbor who doesn't even bother to go to a job? Now, stop and think for a moment instead of feeling things. Oil and gas? Started from Entrepeneur's discovering the products, then designing ways to extract them and get them to market. Many, many fortunes were lost before it became the giant it is today. Under communism, it never would have gotten off the ground. Pharma? Same thing. A few doctors took some folk remedies and figured out what in them was actually helping the sick and they figured out how to get the critical components to the people in a safe manner. Again, communism, not so much. Face it, communism lives off what it can scrounge and steal from Capitalism.

Communism, an idea so good, you have to build a wall to keep the people from leaving.

 

[hadit]

Communism, an idea so good, you have to build a wall to keep the people from leaving.

And therein lies a lot of truth.

Here's a simple thought experiment all those who advocate that the US go communist. In your mind, build a wall all the way around the US. No one is allowed either in or out. Now, remove that wall. Which way will the people move, into or out of the US?
Another one. Ask anyone who either lived under communism or had parents who lived under it and have since escaped to the US. What do they say about it?

The bottom line remains, people move TO the US to get AWAY FROM communism.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Another one. Ask anyone who either lived under communism or had parents who lived under it and have since escaped to the US. What do they say about it?

The OP's family escaped Cuba. He thinks communism is groovy.

 

[Red Front]

Communism always ends up with a ruling elite class and the majority of the population as enslaved serfs, every time. There is no utopia where everyone owns everything, and everyone works hard for nothing. History shows that when you eliminate a man's profit motive, you also eliminate his desire to strive or innovate. Why work to get paid the same as your neighbor who doesn't even bother to go to a job? Now, stop and think for a moment instead of feeling things. Oil and gas? Started from Entrepeneur's discovering the products, then designing ways to extract them and get them to market. Many, many fortunes were lost before it became the giant it is today. Under communism, it never would have gotten off the ground. Pharma? Same thing. A few doctors took some folk remedies and figured out what in them was actually helping the sick and they figured out how to get the critical components to the people in a safe manner. Again, communism, not so much. Face it, communism lives off what it can scrounge and steal from Capitalism.

Let's examine you claims:

Hadit:
Communism always ends up

CF:
Communism always? Really? ALWAYS WITHOUT EXCEPTION AND FOR NO RATIONAL REASON....

Hadit:
Communism always ends up with a ruling elite class and the majority of the population as enslaved serfs, every time.

CF:
Give examples of how communism ALWAYS and EVERY TIME, creates a "ruling elite class" that enslaves the population. Are these "ruling elites" millionaires, billionairs, that are bribing politicians or are they themselves politicians that are completely unaccountable to the people they're supposed to serve? Elaborate on the nature of this supposed ruling elite that are just as bad as what we have under capitalism in the United States and throughout the world.

Are you saying that the capitalist imperialist elites are better than the communist elites? Elaborate.

Hadit:
There is no utopia where everyone owns everything, and everyone works hard for nothing.

CF:
We're not striving for "utopia" that's nothing more than a false assumption and strawman polemic. In communism, people exclusively own and have control over their personal property, the only property that is publicly owned is the means of production, including the raw materials (mines, processing plants. etc). The facilities, machinery, all of the raw materials, and technology are in the hands of the people. So if you're implying that in communism, everyone owns everything as in sharing toothbrushes, our fruit of the looms, our homes, cars..etc, you're wrong. In communism, you have a right to personal property.

Your claim that people only work for money is false. I'm financially secure and I work quite hard. My work provides me with meaning and many opportunities to meet and interact with other people, and provide assistance. I get an immense amount of satisfaction, and contentment from my labor, and I don't do it for the money, because I already have it. What does having money entail? Lack of scarcity and some freedom. I don't have to worry about food, housing, and other things that most people consider important, because I already have access to it. In a modern communist society, people would have access and a right to plenty of food, beautiful housing and modern transportation, computers, libraries, and all of the things that they like.

When I was in the US Army, I worked for peanuts. Our men and women in uniform work hard and even risk their lives, for little pay. If you want to make money and get rich, choosing a career in the military isn't a very good idea. We have high-ranking officers with advanced degrees and very high IQs, who could be earning five times more money in the private sector, and yet they choose to remain in uniform. Why? There's more to it than just money.

In communism we don't labor for nothing, actually, we work for something much better than what capitalism pays. Under capitalism there are no elections in the workplace, you do what you're told like a slave and the boss or owner of the business can fire you at any moment. Many people who get sick and can't work for a few days lose their jobs. In communism that can't happen, because the factory production teams are run democratically. The boss can't abuse his or her power without negative consequences. A little tyrant boss will lose their position in the next election. People respect, value, and even love each other (their comrades).

In communism, you have a human right to food, housing, healthcare, education, and employment. In the 21st century thanks to advanced technology, everyone in a communist society can have a very high standard of living, without scarcity.

Hadit:
History shows that when you eliminate a man's profit motive, you also eliminate his desire to strive or innovate.

CF:
Actually, history and reality prove the very opposite of what you're asserting. People often strive and innovate without pursuing profits.

Hadit:
Why work to get paid the same as your neighbor who doesn't even bother to go to a job? Now, stop and think for a moment instead of feeling things.

CF:

Amazing the level of ignorance.

In a communist society everyone that can work, works. So your claim that there will be people who can work but don't bother to do anything, is highly unlikely due to the fact that people have every opportunity to actualize their fullest potential in a communist society. The few people that choose not to work when they can, will be disciplined just like I would now get punished if I decide to violate my civic duties. If I get a letter in the mail telling me I have to appear in court for jury duty, I will have to go, whether I like it or not. Do you know why? Because I don't live in a vacuum or out in the forest by myself, I live in human society and I have certain obligations and civic duties. That's part of my social contract.

In a modern, high-tech communist society, we don't have to work more than 20 hours weekly. The more advanced technology is, the less we have to work. So there is a real incentive in advancing science and technology, whether it's "marketable" or not.


Hadit:
Oil and gas? Oil and gas? Started from Entrepeneur's discovering the products, then designing ways to extract them and get them to market. Many, many fortunes were lost before it became the giant it is today. Under communism, it never would have gotten off the ground. Pharma? Same thing. A few doctors took some folk remedies and figured out what in them was actually helping the sick and they figured out how to get the critical components to the people in a safe manner. Again, communism, not so much. Face it, communism lives off what it can scrounge and steal from Capitalism.

CF:
More tripe drivel.

There is no need for capitalists in order for society to benefit from oil and gas, pharmaceuticals, science, and technology. The public can own all of those resources and industries and manage them through their government. The government is a social apparatus organized by the people to manage their large-scale socioeconomic civil affairs and projects. No need for capitalists.

Actually, the capitalists need the government because they're constantly being bailed out. They need to rely on the government for contracts, facilities, infrastructure, courts, law enforcement, grants, subsidies, loans, and bailouts. etc. Why are so many capitalists now talking about providing the public with a "UBI" i.e. Universal Basic Income? Even Melton Friedman believed capitalism needed the government to provide people with a UBI, in order to avoid the gross inequality and social upheavals inevitably created by capitalism.

Capitalism privatizes the gains and makes public the losses. So the capitalists make all of the profits until there's a bust in the market, then the working class has to bail them out through the government (i.e. government of the people).

Look at the capitalists admitting they need a UBI monthly bailout from the government:

Elon Musk: We Have NO Choice. Universal Basic Income. No work Yes pay. #641 (its not passive income)

Affiliate links:Stock Trading App: https://tinyurl.com/MooMooFreeStocks (Free stocks on sign up)Coinbase Wallet App: https://tinyurl.com/CoinbaseFreeBitcoinO...

www.youtube.com

Yang is a politician and a wealthy CEO. He knows capitalism needs to get bailed out with a UBI or universal income.

Milton Friedman the modern prophet of capitalism:




He understood that capitalism creates gross inequality and requires a government bailout in the form of a UBI or"negative tax", where everyone is guaranteed a basic income. Without that government-provided basic income, capitalism at a national scale collapses. It leads to eventual social unrest and civil war. Like what occurred in Cuba.
​

If there are leeches and parasites in society, it's not the working poor or the working class, it's the wealthy capitalist class that depends upon the hard labor of others to draw their incomes. I have money because I was born in wealth, so I own the facilities and machinery of production and you, unfortunately, don't. You need to eat, so you sell yourself to me for eight, ten, twelve, sixteen hours daily and you produce $1000 worth of product for me daily and I pay you $80. I'm taking everything you produce, it's mine. At the end of your shift or two shifts, you go back home and come back tomorrow and keep producing for me. I'm at the country club or beach, you're laboring for me, making me rich while I sit on my ass smoking my Cuban cigar.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I have money because I was born in wealth, so I own the facilities and machinery of production and you, unfortunately, don't. You need to eat, so you sell yourself to me for eight, ten, twelve, sixteen hours daily and you produce $1000 worth of product for me daily and I pay you $80. I'm taking everything you produce, it's mine.

Sounds awful!!!

What did those facilities and machines cost?
What did the materials and other inputs cost?

 

[westwall]

You're not engaging in this conversation with any civility or goodwill, so the only reason I invest any time at all responding to you is for the sake of others that might get misled by your poorly reasoned, disingenuous arguments.

There was no "iron curtain" in Soviet Russia, until after the devastation of WW2 when Soviet Russia incorporated East Germany and Berlin, which was within East Germany and yet full of NATO troops. The USSR had to rebuild after losing practically all of the immense amount of infrastructure that it built in Western Russia, between 1920 and 1940. Soviet Russia was invaded by 4 million Nazi Germans and 9 million red army soldiers died fighting them. About 18 million Soviet citizens perished, which amounted to a loss of 15% of the nation's population.

Imagine today if the United States were to get invaded by a foreign power and lose 15% of its population and most of its national infrastructure. The US would lose 49,500,000 people (49.5 Million). The US is surrounded by two vast oceans and was pretty much secure from being invaded in the same way the USSR was. It lost about half a million people in WW2. Yes losing half a million people was devastating for the US, as it would be for any country, but nonetheless, the Soviets lost thirty times that amount.

The Soviet Union had to rebuild itself and it was now facing a war with the West, because the American big-money capitalist ruling class began its "red scare" campaign against socialists and communists in the United States to demonize everything related to the Soviet Union, and hopefully repeal or at least blunt the "new deal" of the 1930s. The USSR assisted American leftists during the labor union struggles of the 1920s and 30s, and was seen by the American aristocracy as a threat to their power and wealth. The biggest fear of the American wealthy class was for the American working-class to adopt socialism and strip them of their power.

The Soviet Union had gained an immense amount of territory after WW2, splitting the spoils of war with the West after the defeat of nazi Germany. Germany was split between West and East and Berlin was right smack in the center of Eastern Germany. It was full of NATO troops from the US and Western Europe, so of course, a wall was built around it.

Furthermore, millions of Soviet citizens now had to rebuild their country and unfortunately, a significant % of them were shell-shocked and didn't want to continue with the communist experiment. It wasn't easy to establish a new order and civilization, after fighting a war and losing almost thirty million people, and most of your nation's infrastructure. The USSR was a new nation. You completely ignore that.

About 20% of the Soviet intelligentsia, academics, scientists, and engineers, sought to settle in Western Europe and the United States. So until the death of Stalin in 1953, there were some serious restrictions on travel for Soviet citizens. Yes indeed, that was the situation. Does that imply that communism doesn't work? No, whoever jumps to that conclusion is suffering from poor reasoning. NATO was created in 1947, right after the war and there wasn't a Soviet Warsaw Pact military alliance until the mid-1950s. The cold war started shortly after WW2 and for several years the USSR didn't have nukes. So of course, under those difficult circumstances, a developing nation might very well become a bit "paranoid" and more authoritarian, in an effort to survive and rebuild. Yep?

The Soviets rebuilt their country and by the late 1950s, it was a world superpower, rivaling the US which had over a century of industrial development ahead of Soviet Russia, and didn't suffer the same catastrophic devastation that the Soviets had during WW2. Communism turned Russia into a superpower in less than 15 years after the destruction of much of its national infrastructure during the war. The United States spent billions rebuilding Western Europe and Japan, whereas the USSR had to fend for itself. There was no help for the communists after WW2, they had to pick themselves up by their bootstraps and rebuild.

Keep believing whatever you want, but communism is in your future or in that of your progeny, so you should become a communist now. In the end, communism will become a necessity and self-evidently the only solution to advanced technology replacing wage labor. Deal with it. Seethe their and boil in your bitterness.

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View attachment 726646



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Walls of text aren't discussion either.

Neither is denying well known history.

Both your schtick.

 

[Red Front]

Sounds awful!!!

What did those facilities and machines cost?
What did the materials and other inputs cost?

It's worth nothing without human labor. It's a complete waste of money. It's buying something that is dead, without the human element animating it and producing products for me while I leech off of other people's labor. They risk losing their fingers and breathing in the toxic fumes of the machines while I sit in my office looking down at them while smoking my Cuban cigar. Assuming I'm there, I might just be at the beach, while you toil for me. You're the one dependent upon me? I'm dependent upon other people's labor. I reduce them to a commodity and part of the means of production. You're part of that machine. I reduce human beings to the machinery of production in order to turn a profit while I sit on my ass at the country club by the pool.

Production is a social endeavor, it's not private. Why should they allow me to be their lord? I was born in opulence, on the lap of privilege, with access to everything I ever wanted. I was born a "have", you were born a "have-not", so I exploit you. Why not? Right? That's why we're on the brink of fighting a nuclear war with Russia because the wealthy ruling elite want to make a profit selling weapons to Ukraine. That's what capitalism creates. Alienation and war.

 

[DigitalDrifter]

No need, America is my home. Perhaps capitalists and their fans can go somewhere else? That would be ideal. Capitalists leave, and socialists stay.

More like, Capitalists innovate, and socialists lay.

 

[Red Front]

More like, Capitalists innovate, and socialists lay.