Did We Need The USSR????

[Moonglow]

The Russian tanks T-34s were superior to our Shermans

Not before the USA provided machines and machine tools - they were literally throwing rocks.

Oh, and the Bullshit about the T-34 being superior was well fleshed out when the two went head to head in Korea. While you view anything Communist to be perfect, that was not the case.

By the Korean war the heavy tank M41 Walker Bulldog and the M26 Pershing replaced the Walker light tank and the Sherman medium tank

 

[PrometheusBound]

The Soviet Union won the most in the war, why won't people believe that Stalin planned it that way as far back as 1939? You Netties should question suspiciously whatever you've been told and taught about things the same way you'd question any other power's propaganda. I really believe you'd all still believe in Santa Claus if no one in authority had told you he didn't exist.

Stalin purposely provoked Hitler into attacking, then let his purposely weakened and mismanaged Western front fold so Hitler would rush ahead confident of another quick blitzkrieg victory. If it had not all been a faked Soviet resistance, there is no doubt that the Nazis would have won the war by 1942. The real Russian army was kept in reserve until the Nazis had far overextended themselves. There were also partisans planted all over the conquered area to make the trap even worse. Stalin didn't start fighting back until December 7, 1941.

Another part of this faked defeat was to trick FDR into joining the war. With the Nazis apparently a sure thing about to control both Europe and Russia, with all its oil resources, America would be vulnerable to conquest. There was also the factor that Hitler had waged a pre-emptive and apparently unprovoked attack on Russia and would do the same to the United States despite any appeasement.

But in reality, once Barbarossa was launched, Germany was doomed even if we didn't help any of its enemies at all. If we had kept out of it, however, Russia would have been so weakened despite its inevitable victory that it probably wouldn't have been able to take Eastern Europe. So the ETO part of our war was a waste of Americans lives. Nobody knew that then and nobody has believed it since, which shows you how having unintelligent people in intelligence costs lives. It goes on and on with these simple-minded policies drawn up and promoted by simple minds.

Much has been written about Stalin's plans to invade Germany before Germany invaded. Some believe and have facts to back up their opinion, that Stalin was only a few weeks away from giving the order to invade, when Hitler beat him to the punch.

The vast numbers of men and material captured by the Germans in the early days of the war, would seem to confirm this theory.

When Uncle Joe learned from his spy in Tokyo (and likely also from his spies surrounding his stooge in the White House), that Japan had no plans for invading the USSR and intended to strike the USA, he moved those eastern divisions to the front and pushed the Germans back.

Stalin could not have known that Hitler would lose his mind and would sacrifice the 6th Army at Stalingrad, while extending the entire front to far eastward to properly supply and protect from counterattack.

At least you didn't call me stupid for proposing the only logical but unfortunately original explanation. Stalin had defeated the Japanese long before this, refuting the excuse that he kept his best troops back to protect Russia from them. The western Soviet troops were not getting ready to attack the Germans; that would have been suicidal for Stalin, who wanted to trick the over-confident Hitler into going full speed into the Russian trap. Why is it that histwhorians don't accept the fact that a mass murderer like Stalin was willing to sacrifice the lives of all the inferior western troops in order to draw Hitler deep into the Russian trap? Once in Russia and carelessly charging ahead, the Nazis were doomed, no matter how brilliantly they were led.

FDR intended to provoke Japan by shadowing its Southeast Asia invasion fleet. Then he hoped to scurry over to Europe and prevent Hitler from becoming overwhelmingly powerful after taking Russian oil. Stalin made FDR's paranoia seem realistic by purposely caving in to the blitzkrieg.

 

[gipper]

The Soviet Union won the most in the war, why won't people believe that Stalin planned it that way as far back as 1939? You Netties should question suspiciously whatever you've been told and taught about things the same way you'd question any other power's propaganda. I really believe you'd all still believe in Santa Claus if no one in authority had told you he didn't exist.

Stalin purposely provoked Hitler into attacking, then let his purposely weakened and mismanaged Western front fold so Hitler would rush ahead confident of another quick blitzkrieg victory. If it had not all been a faked Soviet resistance, there is no doubt that the Nazis would have won the war by 1942. The real Russian army was kept in reserve until the Nazis had far overextended themselves. There were also partisans planted all over the conquered area to make the trap even worse. Stalin didn't start fighting back until December 7, 1941.

Another part of this faked defeat was to trick FDR into joining the war. With the Nazis apparently a sure thing about to control both Europe and Russia, with all its oil resources, America would be vulnerable to conquest. There was also the factor that Hitler had waged a pre-emptive and apparently unprovoked attack on Russia and would do the same to the United States despite any appeasement.

But in reality, once Barbarossa was launched, Germany was doomed even if we didn't help any of its enemies at all. If we had kept out of it, however, Russia would have been so weakened despite its inevitable victory that it probably wouldn't have been able to take Eastern Europe. So the ETO part of our war was a waste of Americans lives. Nobody knew that then and nobody has believed it since, which shows you how having unintelligent people in intelligence costs lives. It goes on and on with these simple-minded policies drawn up and promoted by simple minds.

Much has been written about Stalin's plans to invade Germany before Germany invaded. Some believe and have facts to back up their opinion, that Stalin was only a few weeks away from giving the order to invade, when Hitler beat him to the punch.

The vast numbers of men and material captured by the Germans in the early days of the war, would seem to confirm this theory.

When Uncle Joe learned from his spy in Tokyo (and likely also from his spies surrounding his stooge in the White House), that Japan had no plans for invading the USSR and intended to strike the USA, he moved those eastern divisions to the front and pushed the Germans back.

Stalin could not have known that Hitler would lose his mind and would sacrifice the 6th Army at Stalingrad, while extending the entire front to far eastward to properly supply and protect from counterattack.

At least you didn't call me stupid for proposing the only logical but unfortunately original explanation. Stalin had defeated the Japanese long before this, refuting the excuse that he kept his best troops back to protect Russia from them. The western Soviet troops were not getting ready to attack the Germans; that would have been suicidal for Stalin, who wanted to trick the over-confident Hitler into going full speed into the Russian trap. Why is it that histwhorians don't accept the fact that a mass murderer like Stalin was willing to sacrifice the lives of all the inferior western troops in order to draw Hitler deep into the Russian trap? Once in Russia and carelessly charging ahead, the Nazis were doomed, no matter how brilliantly they were led.

FDR intended to provoke Japan by shadowing its Southeast Asia invasion fleet. Then he hoped to scurry over to Europe and prevent Hitler from becoming overwhelmingly powerful after taking Russian oil. Stalin made FDR's paranoia seem realistic by purposely caving in to the blitzkrieg.

I do not think the theory that Stalin purposely lured Hitler into the depths of Russia, is stupid. It has a great deal of merit, but I do not know if it is entirely accurate.

On another issue, you stated that the Soviets beat the Japanese before 1941. I know they have had many minor conflicts along the Russian/Chinese border in the mid to late 1930s, but to say the Soviets beat Japan, does not ring true to me. I believe Japan had a huge army in China, fighting the Chinese in the late 1930s and into the early 1940s. Stalin had to be concerned about Japan attacking him on his eastern frontier. The Japanese Imperial Army was not to be discounted. They had many successes.

 

[rightwinger]

Much has been written about Stalin's plans to invade Germany before Germany invaded. Some believe and have facts to back up their opinion, that Stalin was only a few weeks away from giving the order to invade, when Hitler beat him to the punch.

The vast numbers of men and material captured by the Germans in the early days of the war, would seem to confirm this theory.

When Uncle Joe learned from his spy in Tokyo (and likely also from his spies surrounding his stooge in the White House), that Japan had no plans for invading the USSR and intended to strike the USA, he moved those eastern divisions to the front and pushed the Germans back.

Stalin could not have known that Hitler would lose his mind and would sacrifice the 6th Army at Stalingrad, while extending the entire front to far eastward to properly supply and protect from counterattack.

At least you didn't call me stupid for proposing the only logical but unfortunately original explanation. Stalin had defeated the Japanese long before this, refuting the excuse that he kept his best troops back to protect Russia from them. The western Soviet troops were not getting ready to attack the Germans; that would have been suicidal for Stalin, who wanted to trick the over-confident Hitler into going full speed into the Russian trap. Why is it that histwhorians don't accept the fact that a mass murderer like Stalin was willing to sacrifice the lives of all the inferior western troops in order to draw Hitler deep into the Russian trap? Once in Russia and carelessly charging ahead, the Nazis were doomed, no matter how brilliantly they were led.

FDR intended to provoke Japan by shadowing its Southeast Asia invasion fleet. Then he hoped to scurry over to Europe and prevent Hitler from becoming overwhelmingly powerful after taking Russian oil. Stalin made FDR's paranoia seem realistic by purposely caving in to the blitzkrieg.

I do not think the theory that Stalin purposely lured Hitler into the depths of Russia on purpose, is stupid. It has a great deal of merit, but I do not know if it is entirely accurate.

On another issue, you stated that the Soviets beat the Japanese before 1941. I know they have had many minor conflicts along the Russian/Chinese border in the mid to late 1930s, but to say the Soviets beat Japan, does not ring true to me. I believe Japan had a huge army in China, fighting the Chinese in the late 1930s and into the early 1940s. Stalin had to be concerned about Japan attacking him on his eastern frontier. The Japanese Imperial Army was not to be discounted. They had many successes.

The Japanese won that war

Russo-Japanese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Uncensored2008]

By the Korean war the heavy tank M41 Walker Bulldog and the M26 Pershing replaced the Walker light tank and the Sherman medium tank

Try again.

The Pershing did poorly in Korea. The M26 was developed during WWII, and was deployed there for a slug-fest with Panzers, the terrain of Korea was not kind to it.

I said the Sherman did well against the T-34 in Korea - which is historical fact. All the reasons that the M4 did well, are the reasons that the Pershing did not. The small and nimble Sherman, particularly the Firefly variant, out maneuvered the heavy tanks in the mountains and hills of Korea, where hit and run tactics defeated movable artillery - essentially the role of both the T-34 and the Pershing.

Notice that the army moved to very quick combat vehicles such as the Bradley in response to the lessons of Korea and Vietnam.

 

[gipper]

At least you didn't call me stupid for proposing the only logical but unfortunately original explanation. Stalin had defeated the Japanese long before this, refuting the excuse that he kept his best troops back to protect Russia from them. The western Soviet troops were not getting ready to attack the Germans; that would have been suicidal for Stalin, who wanted to trick the over-confident Hitler into going full speed into the Russian trap. Why is it that histwhorians don't accept the fact that a mass murderer like Stalin was willing to sacrifice the lives of all the inferior western troops in order to draw Hitler deep into the Russian trap? Once in Russia and carelessly charging ahead, the Nazis were doomed, no matter how brilliantly they were led.

FDR intended to provoke Japan by shadowing its Southeast Asia invasion fleet. Then he hoped to scurry over to Europe and prevent Hitler from becoming overwhelmingly powerful after taking Russian oil. Stalin made FDR's paranoia seem realistic by purposely caving in to the blitzkrieg.

I do not think the theory that Stalin purposely lured Hitler into the depths of Russia on purpose, is stupid. It has a great deal of merit, but I do not know if it is entirely accurate.

On another issue, you stated that the Soviets beat the Japanese before 1941. I know they have had many minor conflicts along the Russian/Chinese border in the mid to late 1930s, but to say the Soviets beat Japan, does not ring true to me. I believe Japan had a huge army in China, fighting the Chinese in the late 1930s and into the early 1940s. Stalin had to be concerned about Japan attacking him on his eastern frontier. The Japanese Imperial Army was not to be discounted. They had many successes.

The Japanese won that war

Russo-Japanese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We are not discussing that war. We are discussing the conflicts which occurred between the USSR and Japan in the 1930s.....as it has been stated that Stalin had to keep a number of divisions on his eastern border to contain the Japanese during WWII. Once he was convinced that Japan would not attack, he moved those divisions to the German front.

 

[regent]

The Soviet Union won the most in the war, why won't people believe that Stalin planned it that way as far back as 1939? You Netties should question suspiciously whatever you've been told and taught about things the same way you'd question any other power's propaganda. I really believe you'd all still believe in Santa Claus if no one in authority had told you he didn't exist.

Stalin purposely provoked Hitler into attacking, then let his purposely weakened and mismanaged Western front fold so Hitler would rush ahead confident of another quick blitzkrieg victory. If it had not all been a faked Soviet resistance, there is no doubt that the Nazis would have won the war by 1942. The real Russian army was kept in reserve until the Nazis had far overextended themselves. There were also partisans planted all over the conquered area to make the trap even worse. Stalin didn't start fighting back until December 7, 1941.

Another part of this faked defeat was to trick FDR into joining the war. With the Nazis apparently a sure thing about to control both Europe and Russia, with all its oil resources, America would be vulnerable to conquest. There was also the factor that Hitler had waged a pre-emptive and apparently unprovoked attack on Russia and would do the same to the United States despite any appeasement.

But in reality, once Barbarossa was launched, Germany was doomed even if we didn't help any of its enemies at all. If we had kept out of it, however, Russia would have been so weakened despite its inevitable victory that it probably wouldn't have been able to take Eastern Europe. So the ETO part of our war was a waste of Americans lives. Nobody knew that then and nobody has believed it since, which shows you how having unintelligent people in intelligence costs lives. It goes on and on with these simple-minded policies drawn up and promoted by simple minds.

Satire, right?

Denial, right? Also, a childish mind that desperately looks up to historians as intellectual father figures.

No, I look on noted historians as knowing more history than we posters. I also look up to noted physicists as knowing more science than we posters, come to think of it, the same holds true for the noted professionals in many areas including the medical profession.
But this thread is involved in the what-ifs of history, posters can create any situation they like and with the same creativeness solve the problem, and do it without it costing one life or one penny.

 

[PrometheusBound]

.

At least you didn't call me stupid for proposing the only logical but unfortunately original explanation. Stalin had defeated the Japanese long before this, refuting the excuse that he kept his best troops back to protect Russia from them. The western Soviet troops were not getting ready to attack the Germans; that would have been suicidal for Stalin, who wanted to trick the over-confident Hitler into going full speed into the Russian trap. Why is it that histwhorians don't accept the fact that a mass murderer like Stalin was willing to sacrifice the lives of all the inferior western troops in order to draw Hitler deep into the Russian trap? Once in Russia and carelessly charging ahead, the Nazis were doomed, no matter how brilliantly they were led.

FDR intended to provoke Japan by shadowing its Southeast Asia invasion fleet. Then he hoped to scurry over to Europe and prevent Hitler from becoming overwhelmingly powerful after taking Russian oil. Stalin made FDR's paranoia seem realistic by purposely caving in to the blitzkrieg.

I do not think the theory that Stalin purposely lured Hitler into the depths of Russia, is stupid. It has a great deal of merit, but I do not know if it is entirely accurate.

On another issue, you stated that the Soviets beat the Japanese before 1941. I know they have had many minor conflicts along the Russian/Chinese border in the mid to late 1930s, but to say the Soviets beat Japan, does not ring true to me. I believe Japan had a huge army in China, fighting the Chinese in the late 1930s and into the early 1940s. Stalin had to be concerned about Japan attacking him on his eastern frontier. The Japanese Imperial Army was not to be discounted. They had many successes.

The battle of Khalkin Gol in Mongolia, led by the Soviet general Zhukov, who later made the Inglourious Basterds look like appeasers, annihilated the Japanese northern army and forced the leadership to look south for victories and oil. But I knew that Stalin was keeping his best troops in the rear only to fight the overextended Nazis before I even heard that the Japanese threat had been totally stopped two years before. For one thing, why would Japan threaten both northeast and south over thousands of miles, especially if the Germans seemed to be taking care of Russia?

 

[gipper]

At least you didn't call me stupid for proposing the only logical but unfortunately original explanation. Stalin had defeated the Japanese long before this, refuting the excuse that he kept his best troops back to protect Russia from them. The western Soviet troops were not getting ready to attack the Germans; that would have been suicidal for Stalin, who wanted to trick the over-confident Hitler into going full speed into the Russian trap. Why is it that histwhorians don't accept the fact that a mass murderer like Stalin was willing to sacrifice the lives of all the inferior western troops in order to draw Hitler deep into the Russian trap? Once in Russia and carelessly charging ahead, the Nazis were doomed, no matter how brilliantly they were led.

FDR intended to provoke Japan by shadowing its Southeast Asia invasion fleet. Then he hoped to scurry over to Europe and prevent Hitler from becoming overwhelmingly powerful after taking Russian oil. Stalin made FDR's paranoia seem realistic by purposely caving in to the blitzkrieg.

I do not think the theory that Stalin purposely lured Hitler into the depths of Russia, is stupid. It has a great deal of merit, but I do not know if it is entirely accurate.

On another issue, you stated that the Soviets beat the Japanese before 1941. I know they have had many minor conflicts along the Russian/Chinese border in the mid to late 1930s, but to say the Soviets beat Japan, does not ring true to me. I believe Japan had a huge army in China, fighting the Chinese in the late 1930s and into the early 1940s. Stalin had to be concerned about Japan attacking him on his eastern frontier. The Japanese Imperial Army was not to be discounted. They had many successes.

The battle of Khalkin Gol in Mongolia, led by the Soviet general Zhukov, who later made the Inglourious Basterds look like appeasers, annihilated the Japanese northern army and forced the leadership to look south for victories and oil. But I knew that Stalin was keeping his best troops in the rear only to fight the overextended Nazis before I even heard that the Japanese threat had been totally stopped two years before. For one thing, why would Japan threaten both northeast and south over thousands of miles, especially if the Germans seemed to be taking care of Russia?

Thanks for that. The Soviets did indeed soundly defeat the Japanese. Stalin later signed a peace agreement with Japan, which allowed him to focus on the war in Europe and ultimately move those eastern divisions west to fight the Germans. The Japanese chose to focus their efforts elsewhere...as we well know.

Interestingly the crazy murderous Stalin had two successful generals (Grigoriy Shtern and Yakov Smushkevich) of the action in Mongolia, executed in the purges of 1941. But, he promoted Zhukov. What might have been, had he chosen to also execute Zhukov.