Zone1 Did Jesus Declare "Unclean Meats" Fit for Human Consumption?

[Carl in Michigan]

^ THIS. The context was eating with dirty hands, that is always ignored by those who want to use that passage for other reasons.

But for me, the question of whether or not those laws on clean/unclean meats are still valid is completely irrelevant. Because the bottom line is: eating pork or any flesh is not God's will, Christians are supposed to aim for God's perfect will, which is different than God's permissive will.

"Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

You are 100% right

I posted this thread because the Protestants (and Catholics) constant attacks on Jews and those Christians who make the effort to obey GOD'S Law.

I was hoping they would post all the he excuses I've heard over the years so I could debate their error.

Peter's vision for example. The Scriptures (Peter himself) explains the answer but Protestants simply ignore it

 

[norwegen]

You are 100% right

I posted this thread because the Protestants (and Catholics) constant attacks on Jews and those Christians who make the effort to obey GOD'S Law.

I was hoping they would post all the he excuses I've heard over the years so I could debate their error.

Peter's vision for example. The Scriptures (Peter himself) explains the answer but Protestants simply ignore it

Peter's vision wasn't of animals. It was of Gentiles.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Peter's vision wasn't of food. It was of Gentiles.

Exactly. But I guess you've never heard the Protestants latch on this vision as proof that unclean meats are now okay to consume.

It's on of MANY similar "arguments" they toss out

 

[norwegen]

Exactly. But I guess you've never heard the Protestants latch on this vision as proof that unclean meats are now okay to consume.

It's on of MANY similar "arguments" they toss out

Protestants and Catholics misconstrue much of the Bible.

At any rate, Christians need not abide any dietary restrictions.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

Notice what it says.

God specifically says pork, rabbit, shrimp, dog, cat, bat.... ARE NOT "FOOD."

He didn't declare "non-foods," FOOD.

HE declared FOODS clean

I'm betting you won't get this point.

If you are dirt as a child, it doesn't magically become "food." Neither does any unclean animal

 

[presonorek]

Thanks for the opinion. At least it was honest. By the way, you should like to know that Moses grew up being taught to follow the gods of Egypt. When Jesus was 12, he reminded his mother and step father that he was here to do his Father in Heaven's business or calling. That was before he began his 3 year ministry. Joseph Smith learned to read from his mother teaching him through the Bible. His family and him were church goers and believed in Jesus Christ. After reading James chapter 1, he went to a quiet grove and prayed to the Father to know which church to join meaning which church was his. I have no idea about Buddha and Muhammed. But, the other three obviously believed in God. Buddha probably believed in many gods. Muhammed believed in the same God of Abraham as Ishmael is the father of the Arab people. So, every founder of any of the 4200 religions isn't atheist at all. Especially the one of the OT, NT and BofM.
By the way, how do you get the idea that the Hebrews never heard of Elohim, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Of course Israel knew of God while in captivity. <shaking head>

Jesus had no political goals. None. His goals were specific to the reason He came off his throne as Jehovah to become the Christ Jesus. He came to give the people, not only the Jews, the new and everlasting covenants and new laws to abide by. Fulfilling the law of Moses didn't mean to end all of the laws and traditions that had developed. The Ten Commandments were still under his new law. The laws and traditions He gave the ancient Israelites served their purpose at that time. He didn't come to remove the Romans nor the oppression either. He came to establish his Church with the necessary authority to perform the new priesthood ordinances of baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost. He also established new temple ordinances as well. There was a solemn assembly in the Los Angeles Temple of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1969 where information about an archeological find was made by some Jesuit Catholic Priests in Jerusalem that John had written. On it was Jesus having his disciples perform endowment rites that we as the LDS Church recognize. There were other religions that were summon to Israel for the finding as well. Why don't we see any of this? Simple. We won't reveal ourselves any ordinance that goes on in the Temple. So, it won't come from us and only spoken about in the Temple. Second, no other church will admit these things including the Jews themselves. So, there you have it. Just like our FBI and CIA, there are things that the people don't know about because of reasons you don't like. Back to the reason Jesus came to the earth, his main goal was to teach, preach and end his ministry by atoning for the sins of those who believe in Him. The atonement includes the resurrection so that we all will be resurrected again. This is the "grace" or gift Paul talks about. Our bodies won't be left in the grave. Even the wicked. Why? Because we consented and covenanted with the Godhead (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) in the pre-earth life where we were spirit children of our Heavenly parents to follow the Father's plan and come to the earth. The gift or grace for that is we will all be resurrected. A third of our brothers and sisters rejected the Father's plan and followed Lucifer (Satan) and were cast out of Heaven into the earth never to receive a physical human body. The Atonement was Jesus purpose. Not political stuff with the Romans or the leading bodies of Judah.

When are you going to use your faith to start a new religion? Seriously? You don't see the power in convincing people you are God? or the primary spokesman for God?

 

[buttercup]

From Mark 7:18

18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

The part you put in bold large letters was commentary added by some translator, it is NOT in the original manuscripts or numerous other bible versions. Look at all the older bible versions, that statement in parenthesis is not there.

Also, Matthew 15 is the parallel account, and in that account (verse 20) Jesus makes it clear He is talking about eating with unwashed hands, not declaring all foods clean.

Here's a video to watch on this topic:

 

[Carl in Michigan]

The part you put in bold large letters was commentary added by some translator, it is NOT in the original manuscripts or numerous other bible versions. Look at all the older bible versions, that statement in parenthesis is not there.

Interesting. I did not know that. Thank you.

Edit: Just found this

The parenthetical phrase “(Thus he declared all foods clean)” is not in any of the original manuscripts; this has been added to God’s Holy Scriptures by men.

It’s not in any of the Greek or Aramaic texts whatsoever, and it’s not in any English translation printed before the 20th century.

This parenthetical phrase, or variations of it, has only been added to ‘contemporary’ bibles [e.g., ASV, BBE, CET, CSB, ESV, GNT, GWT, HCSB, NASB, NET, NIV, NLT, RSV, WNT] in the last 100 years or so.

(Thus he declared all foods clean) Part 1 | Mark 7:19

Did Jesus really ‘declare all foods clean’? What does the Greek text say?

apaulogetic.com

 

[Carl in Michigan]

From the KJV

18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

 

[Cougarbear]

When are you going to use your faith to start a new religion? Seriously? You don't see the power in convincing people you are God? or the primary spokesman for God?

Weird post. I answered his questions...

 

[buttercup]

Interesting. I did not know that. Thank you.

Edit: Just found this

The parenthetical phrase “(Thus he declared all foods clean)” is not in any of the original manuscripts; this has been added to God’s Holy Scriptures by men.

It’s not in any of the Greek or Aramaic texts whatsoever, and it’s not in any English translation printed before the 20th century.

This parenthetical phrase, or variations of it, has only been added to ‘contemporary’ bibles [e.g., ASV, BBE, CET, CSB, ESV, GNT, GWT, HCSB, NASB, NET, NIV, NLT, RSV, WNT] in the last 100 years or so.

(Thus he declared all foods clean) Part 1 | Mark 7:19

Did Jesus really ‘declare all foods clean’? What does the Greek text say?

apaulogetic.com

The more I study the bible, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that when it comes to the topic of eating flesh and how we should think about animals in general, some translators have interpreted certain passages through their modern-day carnist lens, instead of doing a direct translation of the original text.

For example, there are some scriptures that in the original language refer to all flesh, in other words, all living beings... but it got translated to "people." That can mislead readers into thinking that animals are not included in God's love and compassion, which is flatly untrue, as we know from Psalm 145:9 and numerous other verses.

I don't want to ruffle any feathers here, but what's sad is how eagerly many flesh-eating Christians look for loopholes in the bible (like Mark 7:19 in modern bibles) to continue doing what they want to do... instead of genuinely seeking God's perfect will on the matter.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

For example, there are some scriptures that in the original language refer to all flesh, in other words, all living beings... but it got translated to "people."

Scripture that immediately comes to mind:

"And except those days be cut short (by Christ's Return) there should be no flesh saved alive. But for the sake of the elect (His people) those days will be cut short."

 

[JustAnotherNut]

Notice what it says.

God specifically says pork, rabbit, shrimp, dog, cat, bat.... ARE NOT "FOOD."

He didn't declare "non-foods," FOOD.

HE declared FOODS clean

I'm betting you won't get this point.

If you are dirt as a child, it doesn't magically become "food." Neither does any unclean animal

The part you put in bold large letters was commentary added by some translator, it is NOT in the original manuscripts or numerous other bible versions. Look at all the older bible versions, that statement in parenthesis is not there.

Also, Matthew 15 is the parallel account, and in that account (verse 20) Jesus makes it clear He is talking about eating with unwashed hands, not declaring all foods clean.

Here's a video to watch on this topic:

Pharisees condemned Jesus and the Disciples for picking the grain and eating it on the Sabbath.......also against the Law.


Did not David (Gods own chosen one) eat of the consecrated bread?? Lust in his heart for Bathsheba? Did he not have her husband killed so he could marry her??.......also against the Law

 

[SweetSue92]

Nope. The NT only agrees with Scripture. This change came with the rise of the Counterfeit church in Rome

In the Torah “clean” and “unclean” are also used of permitted and forbidden food, and therefore, because of this passage, Christians usually have believed that the biblical food laws were abrogated by Jesus. However, one should not be too quick to throw out large portions of the Torah, in this case, portions of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, because of a four-word parenthetical comment[1] by Mark at the end of a long halachic discussion. Such a serious reversal of God’s commands and contradiction of God’s word would need explanation and discussion.

The Torah prohibits Jews from eating certain animals (Lev. 11; cf. Deut. 14; Negative Commandments #172-179). We can assume that Jesus would not have violated these commandments. (Otherwise, he would have been condemned by the words of Torah, and would have been a sinner.) Nor would he have taught others to violate the commandments since he himself taught, “Anyone who breaks them [the commandments of Torah] or teaches others to break them will be called ‘light’ [קַל, kal, that is, of no esteem]” (Matt 5:19). In other words, such a disciple could not become or remain part of the “Kingdom of Heaven,” a term that Jesus sometimes used to refer to his band of full-time disciples

Mark 7:19: Did Jesus Make “Unclean” Food “Clean”? | Jerusalem Perspective

www.jerusalemperspective.com

You are free to follow your own conscience. If this is how you feel you must follow Jesus, then do it.

You are not free to tell ME that I am following Jesus wrong, not when it comes to eating and drinking. This is specified many times.

 

[SweetSue92]

The more I study the bible, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that when it comes to the topic of eating flesh and how we should think about animals in general, some translators have interpreted certain passages through their modern-day carnist lens, instead of doing a direct translation of the original text.

For example, there are some scriptures that in the original language refer to all flesh, in other words, all living beings... but it got translated to "people." That can mislead readers into thinking that animals are not included in God's love and compassion, which is flatly untrue, as we know from Psalm 145:9 and numerous other verses.

I don't want to ruffle any feathers here, but what's sad is how eagerly many flesh-eating Christians look for loopholes in the bible (like Mark 7:19 in modern bibles) to continue doing what they want to do... instead of genuinely seeking God's perfect will on the matter.

It is not permitted for you, or Death Angel, or any Christian to judge me on whether I eat meat or not. Jesus said this and so did Paul. Matthew 15:11. As I told him, you are free to abstain from meat if that's your conscience. You are not free to judge mine.

In essentials--unity
In non-essential--liberty
In all thing--charity

 

[presonorek]

Can people be judged for judging?

Jesus said judge not lest you be judged. This means if you judge someone by a particular standard then expect to be judged by that same standard. In my life I have observed this truth take place many times.

So if you judge me for judging then I will judge you for judging me. Does that makes sense?

Ayn Rand was a hard core atheist. Her opinion on judging was, "Judge and expect to be judged."

Judge not = A straight up lie.

Judge not lest you be judged = the truth

Judge and expect to judged = just advice

Let's judge the fuck out of each other is what I say. Anybody who ignores the Bible and says it is the word of God at the same time is a complete sack of shit and deserves to be mocked mercilessly. So I think it is fine for buttercup and death angel to judge others for disobeying the Bible. Isn't obeying the Bible kind of the goal? Maybe I don't understand Hedonistic Pagan Americans disguised as Christians . Aka evangelical Christians whose philosophy miraculously coincides with Ancient European thought which is contrary to traditional Christianity. The devil really did a number with that one. Those people that say fuck religion it is about a relationship. You know. Those who hate the Bible and love their own feelings. Yeah. Those fuckers. They hate Jesus so much but convince their own self that that love Jesus. It is dumb. Oh well. Fuck those haters of Christ and His Christianity yet pretend to love him.

If you want to judge me for posting this. Don't. Remember, you can't judge people. It is against the rules.

 

[Vastator]

Hebrews 3:12-13​

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

 

[hobelim]

From the KJV

18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

This quote proves, (scripturally), that Jesus understood that the subject of flesh in kosher law was never about unclean food but unclean teaching, what goes into and out of the mind. This is the hidden subject of what defiles and contaminates a person whether anyone agrees with this or not.

Jesus didn't need to declare all foods clean. The subject of the law was never about food. What became obsolete upon this revelation that Jesus received from God like manna from heaven was the talmud, what Jesus called the traditions of men who thought that God gave a crap about diet which became tradition after the death of Moses who said, "For I know that after my death you will utterly corrupt yourselves and turn aside from the way that I taught you to follow [the law]."

Every described unclean creature, bottom feeders, maggots, swine that do not ruminate, vultures, dogs, wolves, teeming vermin that go down on all fours, etc, all represent human archetypes. The wisdom in refraining from the flesh (teaching) of these unclean creatures could not be more clear.

Just look at what "just believing" has done to everyone who swallows any garbage without ruminating. Look at what eating the flesh of creatures that crawl on their belly has done. They brazenly defy the law of God, practice idolatry, celebrate the crucifixion, openly desecrate the body of the teaching of Jesus, the Actual Body of Christ, seek spiritual life from the lifeless work of human hands, and teach and manipulate others to do the same with threats of real and imaginary violence, "anathema", "you're going to hell" etc., as if it was a religious duty oblivious to the absurdity and insanity of it all as if they were literally quite dead, never finding any peace in death.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

It is not permitted for you, or Death Angel, or any Christian to judge me on whether I eat meat or not

Well, I do.
Jesus does not condone the torture of any of His innocent creation.

Paul rebuked (judged) Peter. Peter was converted enough to understand and repent.

Yes, you are being judged. A Christian judges with righteous judgement. I fully reject your Protestant error

Paul says: “He who is spiritual judges all things.” (1 Corinthians 2:15). He says furthermore: “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?” (1 Corinthians 6:2-3).

Jesus Himself requires us to judge. He says: “When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, ‘It’s going to rain,’ and it does. And when the south wind blows, you say, ‘It’s going to be hot,’ and it is. Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don’t know how to interpret this present time? Why don’t you judge for yourselves what is right?” (Luke 12:54-57).

 

[Carl in Michigan]

You are not free to tell ME that I am following Jesus wrong, not when it comes to eating and drinking. This is specified many times

That's the purpose of this thread I started.

Bring it on woman.

Let's get into this. Enlightened me as to where "this is specified many times."

And did you notice, in lecturing me not to judge you, you are judging me???