Democrats on the brink of suicide

[LibocalypseNow]

No one should vote Yea on this Health Care debacle as long as the requirement to buy Health Insurance is still in it. Fining and possibly imprisoning citizens for not having Health Insurance? Yikes! This Democrat-created bill is simply Un-American as far as i'm concerned. They really should scrap it and start all over.

 

[EriktheRed]

Personally, I doubt that the polls really tell us anything other than a lot of people want a public option and a lot of people do not. I don't think either side can legitimately state that their view is the majority view. That is if we are capable of actually being honest and non partisan about it.

Which has been a big part of my point all along.

 

[EriktheRed]

Here's a poll of polls average for the public option.

Public Option Polls

No party is committing suicide by passing something that is supported by those numbers.

FAIL.
These polls are outdated. And none of them show overwhelming support for a "public option" which is never defined in the questions. And the most recent polls also show the lowest approval numbers.
No, if the Dums did not see the election of Scott Brown, who made his campaign on opposing Obamacare, as a referendum then they are totally at sea. The arguments on this thread in favor of passing it seem to be of the "we'll show those Republicans" type.
I doubt the Democrats in Congress will go for anything Obama dishes up. They wont want any part of it. And he has shown himself to be so incompetent at getting things passed that will further complicate things.

They're outdated?? Well, that's interesting because a month ago, or two months ago, when those polls were taken, all I was hearing from the right was that the public didn't want the public option. You were wrong then you are wrong now.

Lieberman was one of those who blocked the public option in the Senate. In his state of CT the public option is supported by 64% of the people and his approval rating is at record lows.

Which kinda flies in the face of the cons' argument that opponents of heathcare reform legislation are just going by the will of the people.

 

[EriktheRed]

Hey, go for it, bubba. We can always roll it back after November.

You think GOoPers are gonna have a veto-proof majority, then?

 

[EriktheRed]

If they pass a health care bill with public option on a 51-49 vote and Obama signs it, we will take over the Congress in 2010 and impeach that bastard's ass out of office soon after.

You are a dumbshit.

 

[EriktheRed]

Yea they have decided on going with reconciliation. They'll ram some stuff through but they'll pay for that for many years to come. So i'm actually ok with them doing this. I knew all along that their "Bi-Partisanship" and "Hope & Change" rhetoric was just Bull Chit. Using reconciliation will change the game quite a bit. It will likely come back to haunt the Democrats at some point. No one supports this 'Worst U.S. Congress in history' at this point and this tactic will only seal their fate. So i say,please go for it Dems.

Careful what ya wish for.

 

[Polk]

You can argue that passing the bill is bad politics, but it's pretty obvious that not passing the bill is even worse politics.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

Reconciliation could be a great thing for Republicans down the road. So let the Dems ram their debacles through. They are the worst U.S. Congress in history so anything they do now will only reinforce this belief. I'm actually rooting for the Dems on this one. Using reconciliation will be a pretty surprising precedent and i'm sure the Republicans are looking forward to using it themselves at some point.

 

[Polk]

Hey, go for it, bubba. We can always roll it back after November.

You think GOoPers are gonna have a veto-proof majority, then?

If they pass a health care bill with public option on a 51-49 vote and Obama signs it, we will take over the Congress in 2010 and impeach that bastard's ass out of office soon after.

You are a dumbshit.

Erik, math is not their friend.

 

[EriktheRed]

Reconciliation could be a great thing for Republicans down the road. So let the Dems ram their debacles through. They are the worst U.S. Congress in history so anything they do now will only reinforce this belief. I'm actually rooting for the Dems on this one. Using reconciliation will be a pretty surprising precedent and i'm sure the Republicans are looking forward to using it themselves at some point.

Excuse me?

 

[Polk]

Reconciliation could be a great thing for Republicans down the road. So let the Dems ram their debacles through. They are the worst U.S. Congress in history so anything they do now will only reinforce this belief. I'm actually rooting for the Dems on this one. Using reconciliation will be a pretty surprising precedent and i'm sure the Republicans are looking forward to using it themselves at some point.

Excuse me?

They know not what they speak.

 

[NYcarbineer]

[Not one of the poll questions mentions that eventually all private insurance plans will be canceled and the public will be forced to get the government option insurance.

This is what the polls should be asking:

Question: Do you support the public option even though it means you will be forced out of your private plan and into a government insurance plan? Yes: .5% No: 99.5%

lol

translation: if we asked people would they support imaginary nonsense, they wouldn't.

This is conservatism in a nutshell. An entire political philosophy based on lies.

 

[slackjawed]

Reconciliation could be a great thing for Republicans down the road. So let the Dems ram their debacles through. They are the worst U.S. Congress in history so anything they do now will only reinforce this belief. I'm actually rooting for the Dems on this one. Using reconciliation will be a pretty surprising precedent and i'm sure the Republicans are looking forward to using it themselves at some point.

Excuse me?

They know not what they speak.

Ain't that the sad truth!
from wiki;

Reconciliation bills have included:

* Omnibus Reconciliation Act of 1980, Pub.L. 96-499 (1980)
* Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1981, Pub.L. 97-35 (1981)
* Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1982, Pub.L. 97-253 (1982)
* Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982 (TEFRA), Pub.L. 97-248 (1982)
* Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1983, Pub.L. 98-270 (1984)
* Deficit Reduction Act of 1984 (DEFRA), Pub.L. 98-369 (1984)
* Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985 (COBRA), Pub.L. 99-272 (1986)
* Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1986, Pub.L. 99-509 (1986)
* Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1987, Pub.L. 100-203 (1987)
* Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1989, Pub.L. 101-239 (1989)
* Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990, Pub.L. 101-508 (1990).
* Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993, Pub.L. 103-66 (1990).
* Balanced Budget Act of 1995, H.R. 2491 (vetoed December 6, 1995)
* Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act, Pub.L. 104-193 (1996)
* Balanced Budget Act of 1997, Pub.L. 105-33 (1997)
* Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997, Pub.L. 105-34 (1997)
* Taxpayer Refund and Relief Act of 1999, H.R. 2488 (vetoed September 23, 1999)
* Marriage Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2000, H.R. 4810 (vetoed August 5, 2000)
* Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 (EGTRRA), Pub.L. 107-16 (2001)
* Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003, Pub.L. 108-27 (2003)
* Deficit Reduction Act of 2005, Pub.L. 109-171 (2006)
* Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005 (TIPRA), Pub.L. 109-222 (2006)
* College Cost Reduction and Access Act of 2007, Pub.L. 110-84 (2007)

end of quote

That list of bills includes those passed by democrats, but most were passed by a republican congress.

Those that rewrite history are attempting to doing a disservice to their fellow citizens, and only deluding themselves.

 

[The Rabbi]

How many of those bills represented major changes in policy and take overs of large segments of the economy? Probably none.

 

[slackjawed]

How many of those bills represented major changes in policy and take overs of large segments of the economy? Probably none.

That may be right rabbi, but that wasn't the point that was in dispute.
However, your point is a very good one. If indeed the healthcare bill would take control of 1/6 of the economy, a number tossed out there by the republican opposition of the bill, then I agree with your implied point. I think it should be fully debated, to the last member, in congress.
Perhaps a better means of debate would be to put it into a constitutional amendment, and work through the debate in all 50 states to ratify it. i say that, based on the fact that the bill, as written anyway, is bound to be challenged on a constitutional basis. If struck down, it would take such a constitutional amendment to make it 'legal'.
I am not in support of the federal government taking control of that large of a chink of our economy. At the same time, I don't know if that number is accurate or not.
I would support control of healthcare at the STATE level. I believe that is where such control belongs.
I also would like to point out that Arizona, where I live, will have on our ballot this year, an initiative 'nullifying' government healthcare at the federal level. the state assembly passed the resolution, and it will be presented to the voters in November. I also point out that several other states either have done, or are working to do much the same thing.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

The house bill does, the senate bill doesn't; It has in place of a public option the firm servicing certain gov't employees to compete with current options.

Now they're trying to pressure Reid to reintroduce the public option and fix the two versions through the reconciliation process, which would only require 51 votes for cloture. This of course has the R's, who were sure the plan was killed, steaming mad.

Remember, versions of the bill have already passed both houses. This is going to happen, fellas.

I disagree, but we'll see. It's political suicide for them to pass this bill and I think the moderate Dems up this year and even in 2012 will be reluctant when it's all said and done, but who knows.

 

[Cuyo]

omg... I honestly try to keep keep it friendly but...

Do you see why it's soooo frustrating to try to talk to you guys about anything?

We're talking about a P U B L I C O P T I O N . . . . . Which has seen consistent positive support from the public.

So scrap it and start over? Perhaps people want that, if they start over with something with a public option. Kill the current bill? Yes, as long as they immediately proceed with a new bill with a public option.

I'm sorry but this has been back and forth for many posts now. Show me where the majority of american's don't want any reform, don't want a public option, or prefer republican solutions over democratic. (You can't find evidence of this. It doesn't exist.)

I'll try one last time before I write you off as too stupid and unworthy of anyone's attention on these forums...

No one has said that the American people are against some kind of reform. In fact, that is the only poll that the Democrats and the majority of progressives on this forum point to in order to make their point.

What they ARE saying is that when you start talking about the current bill, as it is written, more then 60% of the American people are against it. There are a number of reasons they are against it, and there are a number of things that they agree with. But they are bright enough (unlike a majority of the progressives here) to understand that the good can't be whittled out of the bad. The current crop of elected officials just don't have the intelligence to accomplish this task. So the American people simply want the whole bill scrapped and for congress to start over.

The best way to craft a health care bill is to poll the people on what they don't want. So, the polls should be written very specifically and not generally.

I'd bet that those polls would be a huge eye-opener to the Democrats.

Are you kidding me? For real, are you serious, right now?

You're agreeing with me and calling me stupid in the same breath.

We are talking about two different things. Now that that's out in the open you don't have to explain it to me, again.

I've pointed out two things that hold true, until someone shows me otherwise. #1, most americans want a bill passed with a public option, and #2, among those opposed to the current bill, at least half are opposed because they don't think it goes far enough, not that it goes too far.

Do we agree on those two things? Don't throw back at me that a certain percent don't like the current bill, or a certain percent are dissatisfied with the way it's being handled, or anything else. Do we agree on those 2 things, yes, or no.

 

[AvgGuyIA]

omg... I honestly try to keep keep it friendly but...

Do you see why it's soooo frustrating to try to talk to you guys about anything?

We're talking about a P U B L I C O P T I O N . . . . . Which has seen consistent positive support from the public.

So scrap it and start over? Perhaps people want that, if they start over with something with a public option. Kill the current bill? Yes, as long as they immediately proceed with a new bill with a public option.

I'm sorry but this has been back and forth for many posts now. Show me where the majority of american's don't want any reform, don't want a public option, or prefer republican solutions over democratic. (You can't find evidence of this. It doesn't exist.)

I'll try one last time before I write you off as too stupid and unworthy of anyone's attention on these forums...

No one has said that the American people are against some kind of reform. In fact, that is the only poll that the Democrats and the majority of progressives on this forum point to in order to make their point.

What they ARE saying is that when you start talking about the current bill, as it is written, more then 60% of the American people are against it. There are a number of reasons they are against it, and there are a number of things that they agree with. But they are bright enough (unlike a majority of the progressives here) to understand that the good can't be whittled out of the bad. The current crop of elected officials just don't have the intelligence to accomplish this task. So the American people simply want the whole bill scrapped and for congress to start over.

The best way to craft a health care bill is to poll the people on what they don't want. So, the polls should be written very specifically and not generally.

I'd bet that those polls would be a huge eye-opener to the Democrats.

Are you kidding me? For real, are you serious, right now?

You're agreeing with me and calling me stupid in the same breath.

We are talking about two different things. Now that that's out in the open you don't have to explain it to me, again.

I've pointed out two things that hold true, until someone shows me otherwise. #1, most americans want a bill passed with a public option, and #2, among those opposed to the current bill, at least half are opposed because they don't think it goes far enough, not that it goes too far.

Do we agree on those two things? Don't throw back at me that a certain percent don't like the current bill, or a certain percent are dissatisfied with the way it's being handled, or anything else. Do we agree on those 2 things, yes, or no.

NO! times 2 The damn polls are not asking the correct question.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

CAll me when they are passed the brink.

 

[Cuyo]

NO! times 2 The damn polls are not asking the correct question.

Well as eloquent as that was, you saying it doesn't make it so.