Democratic-Republican Party and a Man Named Beckely

[Dante]

Democratic-Republican Party.

That name from a man named Beard? Or some other Progressive revisionist historian?

Certainly it was not what the Jeffersonian Republicans called themselves.

Very true; they were called Republicans well into the next century...

by whom and starting when?

 

[norwegen]

I would challenge you, Dante, my friend, to find some document from Jefferson (or Madison or some other Republican in those days) in which he calls himself a Democrat or Democratic-Republican.

Something from before the Progressive Era. At least before the Calvin Coolidge administration.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Democratic-Republican Party.

That name from a man named Beard? Or some other Progressive revisionist historian?

Certainly it was not what the Jeffersonian Republicans called themselves.

Very true; they were called Republicans well into the next century...

by whom and starting when?

A.James Reichley "The Life of the Parties"( most thorough look at Party history ever written) Page 52

"In referring to political parties I have adopted the names which the respective parties used in self-designation. Thus the Jeffersonian party has been referred to throughout as the Republican Party. This name came into use early in the 1790's among persons who considered themselves of a common political "interest", and the term "Republican interest" was generally used until it was replaced by the more definite "Republican Party".

 

[Dante]

Democratic-Republican Party.

That name from a man named Beard? Or some other Progressive revisionist historian?

Certainly it was not what the Jeffersonian Republicans called themselves.

Wow!

And what exactly did they call themselves and in what years?

Republicans.

1790s.

The nation had a group of democratic societies along with people who identified with republicanism. The people Madison and Beckley organized into what really didn't look like a political party by our standards, called themselves democratic-republicans in the beginning. They were pamphleteers ...

and Beard popularized the name, he did not make it up

 

[norwegen]

Democratic-Republican Party.

That name from a man named Beard? Or some other Progressive revisionist historian?

Certainly it was not what the Jeffersonian Republicans called themselves.

Wow!

And what exactly did they call themselves and in what years?

Republicans.

1790s.

The nation had a group of democratic societies along with people who identified with republicanism. The people Madison and Beckley organized into what really didn't look like a political party by our standards, called themselves democratic-republicans in the beginning. They were pamphleteers ...

and Beard popularized the name, he did not make it up

First, they were pamphleteers. Second, it didn't look like a party. Not a good start. Anything from Madison himself?

I may be wrong, but from the little history I know, the name Democratic-Republican was coined in retaliation against the Republicans.

Hamilton was a leftist (left of the centrist Federalists) with fiscal-military ambitions who thought that the British monarchy was as good a government as a government could be. He wasn't a noble man, really. Not a particularly good statesman. Kind of short and braggadocios. But he was a capitalist, and our first secretary of the treasury. So the Coolidge Administration put his image on the twenty-dollar bill.

The Democrats thought, "Okay, the Republicans are claiming Hamilton as one of theirs. We'll call Jefferson one of ours." So now everyone thinks Jefferson was a Democrat.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

, called themselves democratic-republicans in the beginning.

I have $10,000 saying there is no primary source from the 18th Century( and most newspapers etc survive) calling them democratic -republicans. Bet? or run away with you liberal tail between your legs?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

...

and Beard popularized the name, he did not make it up

yes Beard lied obviously to place the word Democratic at our founding when he knew full well it did not belong there!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I may be wrong, but from the little history I know, the name Democratic-Republican was coined in retaliation against the Republicans.

no not really. The Democratic societies were pro French and almost anarchists in the 1790's, more extreme than the even the Republicans. When the Federalists were vanquished there was a competition to be the most Republican and thus Democratic Republican came into use to purify the Republican Party. It was the opposite of a big govt party hence Jackson's opposition to the Bank etc. Sadly, with Jackson you also had the first thoughts that the little guy could be helped rather than harmed by a benevolent govt.

 

[Dante]

I would challenge you, Dante, my friend, to find some document from Jefferson (or Madison or some other Republican in those days) in which he calls himself a Democrat or Democratic-Republican.

Something from before the Progressive Era. At least before the Calvin Coolidge administration.

You have again used "R" for republican as in a party.

Washington denounced the Democratic societies and blamed them for unrest in the nation. Unrest like the Whiskey Rebellion

Dante has stated on numerous occasion that parties as we understand them did NOT exist during the years of Hamilton/Adams/Jefferson/Madison. The idea that they were truly the 'Democratic Party" "Republican Party" "Federalist Party" or any other organized political party is not factual in that sense. Followers of Jefferson as he stepped into the faction started by people like Madison and Beckely, started calling themselves democratic-republicans and later republicans. There is documentation on this.

We years later have to refer to them by something, so we use names to describe the factions and parties (not organized political parties as such) they belonged to and formed. These groupings formed the political parties of later years. We lazily use terms like First Party system, Second Party system...

Whether Jefferson or Madison referred to themselves as either a Democrat or Democratic-Republican was not the argument Dante made, but Dante says people who called themselves republicans have indeed left behind documentation where they refer to themselves as democratic-republicans.

Beard did NOT make up the phrase/label

 

[norwegen]

I may be wrong, but from the little history I know, the name Democratic-Republican was coined in retaliation against the Republicans.

no not really. The Democratic societies were pro French and almost anarchists in the 1790's, more extreme than the even the Republicans. When the Federalists were vanquished there was a competition to be the most Republican and thus Democratic Republican came into use to purify the Republican Party. It was the opposite of a big govt party hence Jackson's opposition to the Bank etc. Sadly, with Jackson you also had the first thoughts that the little guy could be helped rather than harmed by a benevolent govt.

The history is bit fuzzy to me, but Jefferson, being libertarian (and Madison, too), was in no way democratic. He never thought that supreme authority should be vested in the people or that the passions, prejudices, and vices of democracy should usurp the reason of republicanism.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Dante made, but Dante says people who called themselves republicans have indeed left behind documentation where they refer to themselves as democratic-republicans.

Beard did NOT make up the phrase/label

so shut up and show us the documentation or admit to being an insane liberal and show us that Beckely founded the party or admit to being a double fool!!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

, but Jefferson, being libertarian (and Madison, too), was in no way democratic. .

Well don't forget, at the time democratic meant close to anarchist or pro french or pro direct democracy, the opposite of what is means today. Madision is not helpful. He started out as a Federalist and slowly came over to the Jefferson side. He was moderate throughout while still appreciating the threat to the revolution posed by Hamilton Adams and Washington.

 

[norwegen]

I would challenge you, Dante, my friend, to find some document from Jefferson (or Madison or some other Republican in those days) in which he calls himself a Democrat or Democratic-Republican.

Something from before the Progressive Era. At least before the Calvin Coolidge administration.

You have again used "R" for republican as in a party.

Washington denounced the Democratic societies and blamed them for unrest in the nation. Unrest like the Whiskey Rebellion

Dante has stated on numerous occasion that parties as we understand them did NOT exist during the years of Hamilton/Adams/Jefferson/Madison. The idea that they were truly the 'Democratic Party" "Republican Party" "Federalist Party" or any other organized political party is not factual in that sense. Followers of Jefferson as he stepped into the faction started by people like Madison and Beckely, started calling themselves democratic-republicans and later republicans. There is documentation on this.

We years later have to refer to them by something, so we use names to describe the factions and parties (not organized political parties as such) they belonged to and formed. These groupings formed the political parties of later years. We lazily use terms like First Party system, Second Party system...

Whether Jefferson or Madison referred to themselves as either a Democrat or Democratic-Republican was not the argument Dante made, but Dante says people who called themselves republicans have indeed left behind documentation where they refer to themselves as democratic-republicans.

Beard did NOT make up the phrase/label

Still nothing from Jefferson or Madison. Yet you may be right. I don't know.

But to call Jefferson a Democrat in any sense is misleading and unfair. Jefferson was an anti-Federalist on the right edge of the Whig spectrum next to Patrick Henry.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

. There is documentation on this.

of course there is, it's just that you cant get your hands on it right now- right???

See why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance??

 

[norwegen]

, but Jefferson, being libertarian (and Madison, too), was in no way democratic. .

Well don't forget, at the time democratic meant close to anarchist or pro french or pro direct democracy, the opposite of what is means today. Madision is not helpful. He started out as a Federalist and slowly came over to the Jefferson side. He was moderate throughout while still appreciating the threat to the revolution posed by Hamilton Adams and Washington.

As I just told Dante, the "historians" have left something out of the translation. If Democrat is no longer the appropriate term to apply to Jefferson, then continued use of it is nefarious.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

But to call Jefferson a Democrat in any sense is misleading and unfair. Jefferson was an anti-Federalist on the right edge of the Whig spectrum next to Patrick Henry.

yes but it became plausible at least in the 19th Century when Republican central govt thought it could help the little guy with govt action. Jefferson was for the little guy too but saw that help in separation from federal govt not from being tethered to it on the assumption that it could be benevolent, magical and helpful.

 

[Dante]

I may be wrong, but from the little history I know, the name Democratic-Republican was coined in retaliation against the Republicans.

no not really. The Democratic societies were pro French and almost anarchists in the 1790's, more extreme than the even the Republicans. When the Federalists were vanquished there was a competition to be the most Republican and thus Democratic Republican came into use to purify the Republican Party. It was the opposite of a big govt party hence Jackson's opposition to the Bank etc. Sadly, with Jackson you also had the first thoughts that the little guy could be helped rather than harmed by a benevolent govt.

The history is bit fuzzy to me, but Jefferson, being libertarian (and Madison, too), was in no way democratic. He never thought that supreme authority should be vested in the people or that the passions, prejudices, and vices of democracy should usurp the reason of republicanism.

Libertarian? Uh oh!

It isn't about democrats versus republicans (small 'd' and 'r') many thought of themselves as democratic-republicans. Of course Dante like Madison abhors direct popular democracy. But make no mistake about it Madison was for a representative democratic system in the new republic

as with my other post I will revisit this

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

, but Jefferson, being libertarian (and Madison, too), was in no way democratic. .

Well don't forget, at the time democratic meant close to anarchist or pro french or pro direct democracy, the opposite of what is means today. Madision is not helpful. He started out as a Federalist and slowly came over to the Jefferson side. He was moderate throughout while still appreciating the threat to the revolution posed by Hamilton Adams and Washington.

As I just told Dante, the "historians" have left something out of the translation. If Democrat is no longer the appropriate term to apply to Jefferson, then continued use of it is nefarious.

yes but it keeps modern Democrats at the founding which is why liberal historians lied so badly. Really, the modern Democratic Party can trace its roots to Russia in 1917.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

many thought of themselves as democratic-republicans.

of course they did dear and one day you'll even find some evidence of it!!

 

[Dante]

, but Jefferson, being libertarian (and Madison, too), was in no way democratic. .

Well don't forget, at the time democratic meant close to anarchist or pro french or pro direct democracy, the opposite of what is means today. Madision is not helpful. He started out as a Federalist and slowly came over to the Jefferson side. He was moderate throughout while still appreciating the threat to the revolution posed by Hamilton Adams and Washington.

As I just told Dante, the "historians" have left something out of the translation. If Democrat is no longer the appropriate term to apply to Jefferson, then continued use of it is nefarious.

Most every historian I know of refers to Jacksonian Democrats, not Jeffersonian Democrats (referring to a Democratic political party).

People often get confused over the terms as do people today calling Conservatives -- Republicans and calling Liberals -- Democrats