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Democracy: Syncretic In The Middle East
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Augustine_
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The West always overthrows their governments and installs whoever they want or lets the country fall into chaos
Roudy
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Iranians have no resentment with the U.S. and Israel now. In fact they want them to continue bobbing the Mullah animals and are disappointed at the potential of ceasefire.Another moronic thread.
Iran once had a democracy.
Until:
View attachment 1242115
Few events in modern Middle Eastern history have left as deep a scar as the coup of August 1953 that toppled Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh. In one decisive episode, a democratically elected leader was removed in a covert Anglo-American operation, foreign powers reasserted control over Iranian oil, and the Shah’s autocracy was restored. For many Iranians, the coup became the symbol of Western betrayal, setting the stage for decades of anti-imperialism and fueling the anger that erupted in the 1979 revolution.
Britain and America: From Rivalry to Collaboration
Initially, Britain sought to manage the crisis alone. British leaders hoped to topple Mosaddegh and reinstall a pliant government. They planned covert operations but lacked the ability to act without U.S. support.
The CIA, under Allen Dulles, and MI6 together devised a plan: Operation Ajax. Its aim was to depose Mosaddegh and strengthen the Shah. Kermit Roosevelt, a grandson of Theodore Roosevelt, was chosen to lead the covert operation in Tehran.
Legacy: Roots of Resentment
The coup’s consequences were profound.
Domestic Authoritarianism: The Shah, restored to power, ruled with increasing autocracy for the next 25 years. His reliance on Western backing and his creation of SAVAK deepened repression.
National Humiliation: The coup became a collective memory of betrayal. When revolution erupted in 1979, chants of “Death to America” and “Death to England” drew directly on the memory of 1953.
Cold War Geopolitics: For Washington, Iran became a key ally, hosting U.S. military bases and serving as a pillar of containment. Yet the very alliance sowed the seeds of future estrangement.
Oil Nationalism: Although Mosaddegh was defeated, the principle of oil sovereignty remained powerful. Later OPEC revolts against Western oil companies drew inspiration from Iran’s example.
Enduring Distrust: The coup poisoned U.S.–Iran relations. Even today, Iranian leaders cite 1953 as proof of American duplicity. For many Iranians, the coup explains why foreign influence must be resisted at all costs.
Conclusion
The coup of 1953 was a turning point in modern Iran. It crushed a democratic experiment, restored an autocratic Shah, and reasserted Western control over oil. For the United States and Britain, it was a Cold War victory; for Iranians, it was a national trauma. Its legacy shaped the revolutionary anger of 1979 and continues to color relations between Iran and the West.
The 1953 Coup: Oil, Mosaddegh, and the Roots of Iranian Resentment - Explaining History Podcast
In one decisive episode, a democratically elected leader was removed in a covert Anglo-American operation, foreign powers reasserted control over Iranian oil, and the Shah’s autocracy was restored.explaininghistory.org
Polichic is An example that shows us how low intelligence Asians are admitted into Ivy League institutions because of the same Affirmative Action and DEI that this dumb ho opposes.
I live in Virginia so I am governed by the VA legislature, executive, and judicial branches in Richmond. I am also an American so I am governed by the Federal legislature, executive, and judicial branches in Wash, DC. Any laws VA makes are ultimately subject to Federal authority. Israel is the ultimate authority in the West Bank.
Produce them again? No thanks, you just ignore facts and evidence.
Shusha
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What powers does Israel have in Areas A, B, and C? From where do these powers arise?
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Two things are apparent....The West always overthrows their governments and installs whoever they want or lets the country fall into chaos
1. You hate this country
2. You're a government school grad
How'd I do?
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- #28
Roudy
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Zzzzzz did you say Dictatorship? Ha ha ha! Every single one of these Muslim countries is a barbaric medieval dictatorship run by crooked, corrupt brutal dictatorships. They treat women lower than cattle, no freedom of speech, hang you if you’re gay, and officially treat religious and ethnic and religious minorities as second class citizens.Again, the Zionist Fascist Traitor insists, dictatorship over democracy, as long as the dictator is Pro Israel...
You are a fookin’ idiot.
Roudy
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3- It’s also an ignorant moron.
AI Overview
Based on the Oslo Accords, Israel’s powers in the West Bank are divided by zone: Area A (18%) is under Palestinian Authority (PA) security/civil control, though Israel conducts security raids; Area B (22%) has PA civil control and Israeli security control; and Area C (60%) is under full Israeli security and civil control.
Israel's Powers by Area:
- Area A (approx. 18%):
- Security: While technically under PA control, Israeli military frequently conducts raids.
- Civil: Historically managed by the PA, but recent policy shifts indicate, as noted in the Washington Institute for Near East Policy's "Annexation by Design" report, increasing attempts to assert control over planning, archaeology, and environmental issues.
- Area B (approx. 21%):
- Security: Full Israeli security control, with PA managing education, health, and economy.
- Civil: Israel retains enforcement powers on specific matters like water and archaeological issues.
- Area C (approx. 60%):
- Full Control: Israel maintains complete control over security, planning, and construction.
- Land Use: Israel restricts Palestinian development, manages all settlements, and controls most land.
- Law: Land registration allows the seizure of territory from Palestinians who cannot prove ownership.
Reports, including those from ABC News, highlight that the Israeli security cabinet is expanding its authority in Areas A and B, including taking control of demolition and construction in these areas, arguing these actions are related to environmental or land-use protection, often seen as reducing areas available for Palestinian development.
Shusha
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Sigh. Yes. Please do not "AI Overview" me. I am educated on the subject matter. I'm not seeking information, I'm seeking for you to back up your claims with intelligent conversation and critical thinking.
You claimed that Israel is the "ultimate authority" and that Israel has "political authority" and that Israel "governs" the Arab people of "Palestine".
I asked you what powers Israelis have over the Arabs of Areas A, B, and C.
I gave you 'information' on what powers Israel has in Areas A, B, and C and from where they powers arose?
Mao: "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun"
Shusha
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You neither gave me information, nor made an argument for your claim(s).
Here is your claim once again:
The Oslo Accords are a treaty agreement between Israel and (for ease of discussion) the emerging "State of Palestine". Each party has agreed to the roles and responsibilities it has towards its own citizens and, to some extent, in the territory it controls. It was intended to be temporary and not an inter-generational status quo.
The Arabs who live in Area A and B are under the political authority of the State of Palestine. (There are no Jews nor Israeli citizens in Areas A and B.) The government of the State of Palestine has its own judicial system, and creates and enforces its own laws. The government of the State of Palestine is responsible for providing its citizens with infrastructure such as access to health care, education, emergency services, roads, garbage collection, waste management, green space management, community planning, cultural preservation, issuing identification documents, collecting taxes, etc. Water resource management is intended to be a joint and cooperative authority.
These Arabs are NOT under the "political authority" of Israel. They are under the political authority of the government of the State of Palestine. IF they lived under a democracy, they would be able to vote for candidates who would express the wishes of the people. They DO NOT live under a democracy, but a corrupt and failed dictatorship.
All this boo-hoo about not being able to vote is misdirected towards Israel. It is not the responsibility of Israel to correct a failed and corrupt dictatorship for the people of Palestine. If the Arab Palestinians in Area A and B want representation, they need to replace their government with a functioning democracy.
Now, in anticipation of your next complaint - that Israel has some sort of military control - I'll say that Israel has an obligation to protect its citizens from acts of terror committed by foreign actors. Yes, Israel uses military control in self-defense. Military action in response to terrorism is no different in the State of Palestine than it is in Lebanon, Syria, or Gaza. IF the governments of those States (quasi-states) refuse to or are incapable of controlling terrorism directed to Israel within their own territory, it falls on Israel to defend itself. This is NOT at all equivalent to Israel having "political" or "ultimate" authority. It is emergency security which would not be necessary if those States would simply take responsibility for peace and contain/control the terrorists in their midst.
I think his point was not all citizens of Israel have equal civil rights. Which is objectively true,
The West Bank areas are not sovereign nations. They don't control their own borders or foreign policy. How much West Bank real estate have been taken over by Jewish settlers? Sounds more like Virginia vs the US Government.
Shusha
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Which citizens of Israel don't have equal rights?
Shusha
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Not yet. But, at least in theory, the State of Palestine could (quite easily) become a sovereign nation. The whole point of the Oslo Accords was to walk them through the process of achieving that goal.
But my question would be why you expect them to have citizenship rights in a DIFFERENT State, if the intention is to become a sovereign nation?
What does that even mean "they don't control their own borders"? What control would you want them to have over their borders that they don't already have?
And military security action often crosses borders, even between sovereign States. (Ask Lebanon or Syria about how that works).
How much of Areas A and B? Zero. There are no Jews or Israelis living in territories controlled by the State of Palestine.
They currently don't have a state OR representation. The worst of both worlds.
Can they decide who leaves and who enters their territories? What about trade?
How has the size of the territories controlled by the State of Palestine changed over time?
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