Define liberals and conservatives

[rdean]

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility; sacrifice! Liberals believe in the sacrifice of others! Bush is not a conservative.

Bush followed conservative policies to the TEE. He even didn't believe in Science.

 

[BallsBrunswick]

Bush isn't a conservative like Jesus Christ wasn't a liberal...

 

[CrotchetyGeezer]

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility; sacrifice! Liberals believe in the sacrifice of others! Bush is not a conservative.

Bush followed conservative policies to the TEE. He even didn't believe in Science.

Not junk science...of course.

 

[CrotchetyGeezer]

Bush isn't a conservative like Jesus Christ wasn't a liberal...

LOL@Jesus Christ a liberal. Oh...wait, maybe you're right. Jesus Christ gave people stuff so they'd follow Him. Liberals/leftists give people stuff, so they will follow them. Hmmmm. But, hey, Jesus Christ's pop...on the other hand? Now, He's just one tough conservative. But, really, would a liberal/leftist smite a fig tree, because it didn't bear fruit? I thought liberals/leftists hug trees?

 

[gallantwarrior]

Bush isn't a conservative like Jesus Christ wasn't a liberal...

LOL@Jesus Christ a liberal. Oh...wait, maybe you're right. Jesus Christ gave people stuff so they'd follow Him. Liberals/leftists give people stuff, so they will follow them. Hmmmm. But, hey, Jesus Christ's pop...on the other hand? Now, He's just one tough conservative. But, really, would a liberal/leftist smite a fig tree, because it didn't bear fruit? I thought liberals/leftists hug trees?

But wait, didn't Jesus talk about teaching guys to fish for themselves?

 

[CrotchetyGeezer]

Bush isn't a conservative like Jesus Christ wasn't a liberal...

LOL@Jesus Christ a liberal. Oh...wait, maybe you're right. Jesus Christ gave people stuff so they'd follow Him. Liberals/leftists give people stuff, so they will follow them. Hmmmm. But, hey, Jesus Christ's pop...on the other hand? Now, He's just one tough conservative. But, really, would a liberal/leftist smite a fig tree, because it didn't bear fruit? I thought liberals/leftists hug trees?

But wait, didn't Jesus talk about teaching guys to fish for themselves?

Actually, I don't think it was Jesus who said that. I think it's a Chinese proverb or something.

 

[rdean]

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility; sacrifice! Liberals believe in the sacrifice of others! Bush is not a conservative.

Bush followed conservative policies to the TEE. He even didn't believe in Science.

Not junk science...of course.

Of course. Magical creation is REAL science, Evolution is Junk Science.

 

[CrotchetyGeezer]

Bush followed conservative policies to the TEE. He even didn't believe in Science.

Not junk science...of course.

Of course. Magical creation is REAL science, Evolution is Junk Science.

Both are real science. Some folks' interpretations of them are junk science. You implying there's no science involved in the so-called "Magical creation" part of it? Sure there is. When they find artifacts related to religious history, science is applied to determine how old it is, science is applied to decipher and interpret any languages which are used, science is applied to determine where it came from. To imply there is no science involved in the religious aspects of creation is absurd and dishonest. The Bible was deciphered and translated from Hebrew to English, using science...idget. Science is applied in the effort to find Noah's Ark. There's all kinds of science involved.

And oh, additionally, science was applied just not so long ago to a reconstruction of what they think Jesus looked like. Science has been involved for years with respect to the Shroud of Turin. So, give me some crap about how science isn't involved in the religious aspect of creation.

 

[gallantwarrior]

LOL@Jesus Christ a liberal. Oh...wait, maybe you're right. Jesus Christ gave people stuff so they'd follow Him. Liberals/leftists give people stuff, so they will follow them. Hmmmm. But, hey, Jesus Christ's pop...on the other hand? Now, He's just one tough conservative. But, really, would a liberal/leftist smite a fig tree, because it didn't bear fruit? I thought liberals/leftists hug trees?

But wait, didn't Jesus talk about teaching guys to fish for themselves?

Actually, I don't think it was Jesus who said that. I think it's a Chinese proverb or something.

You might be right. There is a story about multiplying fishes and loaves and feeding a bunch of folks who followed him around...that one fits right into the "liberal/progressive" category. Maybe that "the lord helps those who help themselves..." blurb was only partially translated and should have continued with "...to the fruit of others' labors."

 

[koshergrl]

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility; sacrifice! Liberals believe in the sacrifice of others! Bush is not a conservative.

Bush followed conservative policies to the TEE. He even didn't believe in Science.

If I ever doubted it before, I am now completely convinced you are a complete moron.

 

[koshergrl]

But wait, didn't Jesus talk about teaching guys to fish for themselves?

Actually, I don't think it was Jesus who said that. I think it's a Chinese proverb or something.

You might be right. There is a story about multiplying fishes and loaves and feeding a bunch of folks who followed him around...that one fits right into the "liberal/progressive" category. Maybe that "the lord helps those who help themselves..." blurb was only partially translated and should have continued with "...to the fruit of others' labors."

Christ fed 5000 with five loaves of bread and 2 fish. They weren't people who were "following him around". This was a group of 5000 people from all walks of life and faith who came out of curiosity to listen to him speak.

 

[Koios]

Conservative: drooling idiots incapable of changing a baby's diaper much less their own.

 

[Koios]

Actually, I don't think it was Jesus who said that. I think it's a Chinese proverb or something.

You might be right. There is a story about multiplying fishes and loaves and feeding a bunch of folks who followed him around...that one fits right into the "liberal/progressive" category. Maybe that "the lord helps those who help themselves..." blurb was only partially translated and should have continued with "...to the fruit of others' labors."

Christ fed 5000 with five loaves of bread and 2 fish. They weren't people who were "following him around". This was a group of 5000 people from all walks of life and faith who came out of curiosity to listen to him speak.

Sure, but the Bible (Part Duex) never gave us specifics on the loaf nor the fish. How large was the loaf? And was the fish perhaps a whale, at a time when neither Man nor God understood the difference between fishes and mammals? So much unanswered, and thus, He does indeed act in mysterious ways, praise Baby Jesus.

 

[CrotchetyGeezer]

But wait, didn't Jesus talk about teaching guys to fish for themselves?

Actually, I don't think it was Jesus who said that. I think it's a Chinese proverb or something.

You might be right. There is a story about multiplying fishes and loaves and feeding a bunch of folks who followed him around...that one fits right into the "liberal/progressive" category. Maybe that "the lord helps those who help themselves..." blurb was only partially translated and should have continued with "...to the fruit of others' labors."

LOL! Now that's more like it.

 

[CrotchetyGeezer]

Actually, I don't think it was Jesus who said that. I think it's a Chinese proverb or something.

You might be right. There is a story about multiplying fishes and loaves and feeding a bunch of folks who followed him around...that one fits right into the "liberal/progressive" category. Maybe that "the lord helps those who help themselves..." blurb was only partially translated and should have continued with "...to the fruit of others' labors."

Christ fed 5000 with five loaves of bread and 2 fish. They weren't people who were "following him around". This was a group of 5000 people from all walks of life and faith who came out of curiosity to listen to him speak.

There were people following Him all throughout the Bible.

 

[emilynghiem]

Are these suddenly "conservative principles"? What conservatives are following the above?

1. Jefferson has been claimed by both Democrats and Republicans as being a representative of their Party.
2. The CONCEPT of "limited govt" which distinguishes the Republicans and conservatives from the liberals and Democrats would be aligned with the Founders, especially those who made the addition of the Bill of Rights a CONDITION for agreeing to sign onto the Federal Constitution.
3. The CONCEPT of individual freedom and civil liberties is claimed by both Conservatives and Liberals. The Conservatives are criticized for enabling large corporations and businesses to run amok with "civil liberties" (instead of being held financially responsible for paying back taxpayers) while the Liberals are criticized for enabling the poor minorities and criminal populations to continue costing society and taxpayers for lack of responsibility on that level.

Both extremes could meet in agreement by promoting a system of holding wrongdoers personally and financially responsible for restitution, whether it is the upper or lower classes of economic and political status that are costing taxpayers; but currently the political trend is to BLAME the other group selectively while overlooking or excusing the abuses and wrongs committed by one's own party policies and constituents. Both right in pointing out the wrongs and lack of accountability by the others; both are wrong in denying equal faults.

At this point, in order to survive and to correct all the wrongs going on, instead of charging the costs of govt abuses to taxpayers, members of all parties are going to have to team up and work together to assess the damages and debts owed to the public, and go after the wrongdoers to hold them responsible. There is no way lawabiding citizens can afford or agree to keep paying for this expensive learning curve while wrongdoers get off scott free.

Someone has to pay the bills and debts adding up, and it would create much needed jobs for lawyers or accountants to track these expenses, charge and collect on them. From all the racketeering and profiteering off corporate welfare and bailouts, the millions in tax fraud, insurance fraud, vet fraud and benefits fraud; to the state level where individual crimes and trafficking cost millions if not billions to the state budgets which could be converted into loans and paid back over time through work programs where the resources and labor are invested in rebuilding communities and economies affected by crime and corruption.

That is how I see things turning around, through a collaborative effort by leaders and members of all parties, each focused on correcting issues they have been policing. Not any one party can be in charge of all the work that needs to be done, so if each party takes on a few issues or areas, the correction and restitution work can be delegated and organized.

 

[emilynghiem]

But wait, didn't Jesus talk about teaching guys to fish for themselves?

Actually, I don't think it was Jesus who said that. I think it's a Chinese proverb or something.

You might be right. There is a story about multiplying fishes and loaves and feeding a bunch of folks who followed him around...that one fits right into the "liberal/progressive" category. Maybe that "the lord helps those who help themselves..." blurb was only partially translated and should have continued with "...to the fruit of others' labors."

Dear GW: Yes and no. My friends who were pushing the microlending and business training to "teach people to fish" are all liberals; but on the RECEIVING side, I had to fight my liberal friends who just want "other people" to pay for things, and REALLY push this idea of teaching REAL ESTATE so people can learn how to run charities on a self-sustaining basis.

Most of these "liberals" REALLY don't want to have to do all the work it takes to become independent and self-sustaining. Most of them don't get it. They really expect other people to pay them while they volunteer and don't work, and then when I explain this idea of being able to retire and volunteer AFTER they set up real estate rental property that pays for the programs without working, they still want OTHER PEOPLE to do all that work. They don't get that THEY need to do the work if THEY want to be in charge of the program.

The people I know who get it tend to be conservative, if they have any concept at all of heading their own business plans and hiring and creating jobs for others.

So it's been really weird, on one hand that the ideas for local currency and fair trade business coops and microlending while training people in business came from the Green/liberal activists; but in practice the people with the knowledge are mostly conservative, who are COMPLAINING that the liberals are teaching people to stay dependent on welfare handouts. The way the liberals keep going this route, and are not pushing for the independent microlending and business training, it's like beating your head on a wall.

Since 2008 I have been working two jobs trying to stabilize community groups to set up an educational training program to break the cycle of poverty, and most of the volunteers STILL want someone else to pay them to volunteer. When I ask for help for fundraising to pay off the loans and pay into a longterm program, they want ME or someone else to do all the work. So they still don't get it, sorry to say. The same two people in my neighborhood working two jobs are now looking at working three jobs, while the others want to keep volunteering. This is why the conservatives jump on liberals for enabling dependency!!!
This 'entitlement' mentality where people expect govt grants to pay for everything since they've seen rich developers and politicians move money around to pay their way, so the poor want the same handouts and breaks that the wealthy powerful people get, etc.

It is very sad that people are too busy blaming the OTHER classes, whether the poor blame the rich or the rich blame the poor for "govt welfare" that the working people in the middle get stuck paying while nothing is being resolved, just pushing blame back and forth. This has to end soon, because there is no place else for the debts to go that are piling up....

 

[gallantwarrior]

Actually, I don't think it was Jesus who said that. I think it's a Chinese proverb or something.

You might be right. There is a story about multiplying fishes and loaves and feeding a bunch of folks who followed him around...that one fits right into the "liberal/progressive" category. Maybe that "the lord helps those who help themselves..." blurb was only partially translated and should have continued with "...to the fruit of others' labors."

Dear GW: Yes and no. My friends who were pushing the microlending and business training to "teach people to fish" are all liberals; but on the RECEIVING side, I had to fight my liberal friends who just want "other people" to pay for things, and REALLY push this idea of teaching REAL ESTATE so people can learn how to run charities on a self-sustaining basis.

Most of these "liberals" REALLY don't want to have to do all the work it takes to become independent and self-sustaining. Most of them don't get it. They really expect other people to pay them while they volunteer and don't work, and then when I explain this idea of being able to retire and volunteer AFTER they set up real estate rental property that pays for the programs without working, they still want OTHER PEOPLE to do all that work. They don't get that THEY need to do the work if THEY want to be in charge of the program.

The people I know who get it tend to be conservative, if they have any concept at all of heading their own business plans and hiring and creating jobs for others.

So it's been really weird, on one hand that the ideas for local currency and fair trade business coops and microlending while training people in business came from the Green/liberal activists; but in practice the people with the knowledge are mostly conservative, who are COMPLAINING that the liberals are teaching people to stay dependent on welfare handouts. The way the liberals keep going this route, and are not pushing for the independent microlending and business training, it's like beating your head on a wall.

Since 2008 I have been working two jobs trying to stabilize community groups to set up an educational training program to break the cycle of poverty, and most of the volunteers STILL want someone else to pay them to volunteer. When I ask for help for fundraising to pay off the loans and pay into a longterm program, they want ME or someone else to do all the work. So they still don't get it, sorry to say. The same two people in my neighborhood working two jobs are now looking at working three jobs, while the others want to keep volunteering. This is why the conservatives jump on liberals for enabling dependency!!!
This 'entitlement' mentality where people expect govt grants to pay for everything since they've seen rich developers and politicians move money around to pay their way, so the poor want the same handouts and breaks that the wealthy powerful people get, etc.

It is very sad that people are too busy blaming the OTHER classes, whether the poor blame the rich or the rich blame the poor for "govt welfare" that the working people in the middle get stuck paying while nothing is being resolved, just pushing blame back and forth. This has to end soon, because there is no place else for the debts to go that are piling up....

You just wrote a "mouthful", and it's sadly true. It's a great concept to want to help other people and make yourself feel better. The big problem with liberalism is, they want to accomplish great feats instead of small steps. They always feel best when they manage to use someone else's labors to make themselves feel good and make others feel like they are the heroes.

 

[Pheonixops]

Are these suddenly "conservative principles"? What conservatives are following the above?

1. Jefferson has been claimed by both Democrats and Republicans as being a representative of their Party.
2. The CONCEPT of "limited govt" which distinguishes the Republicans and conservatives from the liberals and Democrats would be aligned with the Founders, especially those who made the addition of the Bill of Rights a CONDITION for agreeing to sign onto the Federal Constitution.
3. The CONCEPT of individual freedom and civil liberties is claimed by both Conservatives and Liberals. The Conservatives are criticized for enabling large corporations and businesses to run amok with "civil liberties" (instead of being held financially responsible for paying back taxpayers) while the Liberals are criticized for enabling the poor minorities and criminal populations to continue costing society and taxpayers for lack of responsibility on that level.

Both extremes could meet in agreement by promoting a system of holding wrongdoers personally and financially responsible for restitution, whether it is the upper or lower classes of economic and political status that are costing taxpayers; but currently the political trend is to BLAME the other group selectively while overlooking or excusing the abuses and wrongs committed by one's own party policies and constituents. Both right in pointing out the wrongs and lack of accountability by the others; both are wrong in denying equal faults.

At this point, in order to survive and to correct all the wrongs going on, instead of charging the costs of govt abuses to taxpayers, members of all parties are going to have to team up and work together to assess the damages and debts owed to the public, and go after the wrongdoers to hold them responsible. There is no way lawabiding citizens can afford or agree to keep paying for this expensive learning curve while wrongdoers get off scott free.

Someone has to pay the bills and debts adding up, and it would create much needed jobs for lawyers or accountants to track these expenses, charge and collect on them. From all the racketeering and profiteering off corporate welfare and bailouts, the millions in tax fraud, insurance fraud, vet fraud and benefits fraud; to the state level where individual crimes and trafficking cost millions if not billions to the state budgets which could be converted into loans and paid back over time through work programs where the resources and labor are invested in rebuilding communities and economies affected by crime and corruption.

That is how I see things turning around, through a collaborative effort by leaders and members of all parties, each focused on correcting issues they have been policing. Not any one party can be in charge of all the work that needs to be done, so if each party takes on a few issues or areas, the correction and restitution work can be delegated and organized.

Yes, that is true with regard to Jefferson. You stated that; " The CONCEPT of "limited govt" which distinguishes the Republicans and conservatives from the liberals and Democrats would be aligned with the Founders, especially those who made the addition of the Bill of Rights a CONDITION for agreeing to sign onto the Federal Constitution. ". Well a true Liberal believes in the concept of Limited Government including the Bill of Rights. Republicans and Conservatives certainly embraced the Patriot Act as well as the NDAA. Republicans and conservatives embrace and embraced the big government DHS, MIC, and various "world police" actions as well as nation building actions. True Liberals do not support the aforementioned actions. Many conservatives talk about the Founding Fathers and their concepts of governance, yet they spit in their faces regarding the aforementioned and foreign policy as well.

Excellent points.

 

[Politico]

Liberals want to take everything away from you.
Conservatives keep you from having anything to begin with.