No, corporations and greedy politicians do not have the freedom to ruin democracy.
You have no idea what freedom is. You are arguing in favor of the people that inslave you.
Cut Corporate Tax Rates--Remove Loopholes
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No, corporations and greedy politicians do not have the freedom to ruin democracy.
You have no idea what freedom is. You are arguing in favor of the people that inslave you.
DiamondDave
Army Vet
Corporations are ruining our democratically elected republic? Nope... nice try to paint that picture, but that dog won't hunt
Freedom is not the use and abuse of power to take from others for your benefit, or the government seizure of earning and property for the redistribution to others for their wants or needs... it is you who has no clue as to the concept of freedom, because you are so infatuated with governmental power and control
DiamondDave
Army Vet
No I did not.
I said companies with more than x amount of employees must provide healthcare.
I don't know if the number is 10 or 50 or 1000. I think it's 100.
But the dude I was arguing with said companies don't have to provide it. And the fact is, yes they do.
He said that because I suggested taking healthcare off their plates by socializing.
Companies should not be required by law to provide healthcare, right?
Compliance Assistance Employment Law Guide - Employee Benefit Plans
And I have been a contracted employee of a company with over 14000 employees... and did not have benefits in my package... as stated, companies do NOT have to offer all employees benefits etc....
Companies should not be 'required' to provide you benefits... you should not be required or forced to have healthcare or health insurance or health benefits.. that is your choice..
and JUST AS I ******* SAID BEFORE... the government is not your ******* mommy, or your ******* insurance company, or your ******* healthcare provider, or you ******* allowance giver, or your ******* wealth redistribution center..... even though you and those of your ilk wish it to be... support personal responsibility and personal freedoms over forced governmental control...
It is so funny how you try and tell others how they are ENSLAVED (see, someone can ******* spell), yet you are the one supporting the control in place that is eerily similar to many aspects of slavery-like control
Oh yea, us Dems got a lot out of the bailout.
And the fact is, just like the Union can shut down Ford, the bankers can shut down America if they don't get what they want. At least that's true when the GOP are in charge.
That's what you get when you put bankers in charge of banks and oil men in charge of gas prices. STUPID!!!
And by the way, in my parents subdivision, ranches pay less in yearly dues than do the colonials. Rich people pay more in taxes on their homes than do poor people.
I live on a like. I pay around $2500 a year in taxes. My neighbor has a million dollar home and pays $15K in taxes every year. Are you suggesting he should only pay $2500.
You aren't an employee **** face.
When healthcare gets so out of control that millions are going without and only the ruling class gets adequite healthcare, that's when it's time for government to step in.
After all, it is my government. If it won't do that for me, what's it good for?
1. There is no such thing as a "free market."
2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).
The conservative belief in "free markets" is a bit like the Catholic Church's insistence that the Earth was at the center of the Solar System in the Twelfth Century. It's widely believed by those in power, those who challenge it are branded heretics and ridiculed, and it is wrong.
In actual fact, there is no such thing as a "free market." Markets are the creation of government.
Governments provide a stable currency to make markets possible. They provide a legal infrastructure and court systems to enforce the contracts that make markets possible. They provide educated workforces through public education, and those workers show up at their places of business after traveling on public roads, rails, or airways provided by government. Businesses that use the "free market" are protected by police and fire departments provided by government, and send their communications - from phone to fax to internet - over lines that follow public rights-of-way maintained and protected by government.
And, most important, the rules of the game of business are defined by government. Any sports fan can tell you that football, baseball, or hockey without rules and referees would be a mess. Similarly, business without rules won't work.
Which explains why conservative economics wiped out the middle class during the period from 1880 to 1932, and why, when Reagan again began applying conservative economics, the middle class again began to vanish in America in the 1980s - a process that has dramatically picked up steam under George W. Bush.
The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is, "Stop government from defending workers and building a middle class, and let the corporations decide how much to pay for labor and how to trade." This is, at best, destructive to national and international economies, and, at worst, destructive to democracy itself.
Markets are a creation of government, just as corporations exist only by authorization of government. Governments set the rules of the market. And, since our government is of, by, and for We The People, those rules have historically been set to first maximize the public good resulting from people doing business.
If you want to play the game of business, we've said in the US since 1784 (when Tench Coxe got the first tariffs passed "to protect domestic industries") then you have to play in a way that both makes you money AND serves the public interest.
You aren't an employee **** face.
When healthcare gets so out of control that millions are going without and only the ruling class gets adequite healthcare, that's when it's time for government to step in.
After all, it is my government. If it won't do that for me, what's it good for?
What part of it is not Government's job to do things for you do you not get. You ******* take care of you dip shit. You say you do that. Why is it so god damn difficult to expect it of everyone else?
Tech_Esq
Sic Semper Tyrannis!
Is there a point to that comment "another Joe the Plumber?" Yeah, small business if that's what you mean. Although unlike Joe, you probably could afford my services.
I'm rich to Barrack and I guess that's all that matters now. The TAX man cometh!!!
I pay more than enough in taxes, as does everyone that pays them. Any deductions I take are put there by the same people who say I have to give some of my money to the government. So, that means to me that they want me to avail myself of the deduction just as bad as they want me to pay taxes, otherwise they wouldn't have passed the law approving the deduction.
If I can figure out how to make the same money I am now off-shore, I will. OK?
Yet you claimed earlier that 'free market capitalism' is what ruined the country'. Make up your mind.
Do you have any evidence that it would not work considering it's never really been tried? Keep in mind that a free market is a bit different from not haveing a government
Because I work for "THE MAN", and I too see healthcare costs are getting rediculous. If they are bad for me, imagine the folks that don't work for "THE MAN".
Most of the people here at work that don't want socialized medicine are just worried that the government will take from them to give to people who don't "deserve" it.
They are greedy, like you.
You don't think it's the government's job, but then you probably didn't read that the middle class is a creation of the government. Without government, there would only be the ruling elite and the working poor.
So bla bla it's not the government's job. Oh the hell it isn't! Or, **** yea it is!!!!
It's the government's job to protect WE the people from greedy ***** like you. Or ignorant ***** like you. Whichever.
You aren't rich to Obama. If you are, get a better accountant. If you are still showing $250K, then yes, you are rich, and you need to start paying more in taxes. Bushanomics is destroying the middle class.
Was it you or Bern who was telling me last week how well you treated your employees.
Now it's just you and your wife? I'm getting you confused. Who owns a business here and employs others and said they paid them all well?
DiamondDave
Army Vet
You aren't an employee **** face.
When healthcare gets so out of control that millions are going without and only the ruling class gets adequite healthcare, that's when it's time for government to step in.
After all, it is my government. If it won't do that for me, what's it good for?
Yes.. you are an employee and employed by that company with compensation.. under contract... with the stipulations of that contract laid out.. and one of those stipulations was that I worked for a higher hourly rate and without the offering of health or retirement benefits.. which would be my own personal responsibility
And BTW.. the government's job is to protect your personal freedoms.. not to hand you something you feel you want or need....
You want to talk about greedy.... those that are truly greedy are the ones who feel they are entitled to something at someone else's expense
I am neither. hell my wage wouldn't even be considered middle class. I believe what i believe because I possess enough personal accounability to see that the biggest factor keeping me from making more money is me.
The problem with people like you is that at every turn you blame external variable first. Only when confronted with no other possible explanation do you look to yourself for the reasonons why you are where you are. The very first thing that one must do is take an inventory of their role in where they are.
Yes, i have evidence. It's called history:
Of course, there were conservatives (like Hamilton and Adams) who thought that the trickle-down theory that had dominated feudal Europe for ten centuries was a stable and healthy form of governance. Jefferson took exception, in an 1809 letter to members of his Democratic Republican Party (now called the Democratic Party): "The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government."
Thomas Jefferson pointed out, in an 1816 letter to William H. Crawford, "Every society/government has a right to fix the fundamental principles of its association." He also pointed out in that letter that some people - and businesses - would prefer that government not play referee to the game of business, not fix rules that protect labor or provide for the protection of the commons and the public good.
We must, Jefferson wrote to Crawford, "...say to all [such] individuals, that if they contemplate pursuits beyond the limits of these principles and involving dangers which the society chooses to avoid, they must go somewhere else for their exercise; that we want no citizens or corporations on such terms. We may exclude them from our territory, as we do persons infected with disease."
Most of the Founders advocated - and all ultimately passed - tariffs to protect domestic industries and workers. Seventy years later, Abraham Lincoln actively stood up for the right for labor to organize, intervening in several strikes to stop corporations and local governments from using hired goon squads to beat and murder strikers.
But conservative economics - the return of ancient feudalism - rose up after Lincoln's death and reigned through the Gilded Age, creating both great wealth and a huge population of what today we call the "working poor." American reaction to these disparities gave birth to the Populist, Progressive, and modern Labor movements. Two generations later, Franklin Roosevelt brought us out of Herbert Hoover's conservative-economics-produced Great Depression and bequeathed us with more than a half-century of prosperity.
But now the conservatives are back in the driver's seat, and heading us back toward feudalism and serfdom (and possibly another Great Depression).
Only a return to liberal economic policies - a return to We The People again setting and enforcing the rules of the game of business - will reverse this dangerous trend. We've done it before, with tariffs, anti-trust legislation, and worker protections ranging from enforcing the rights of organized labor to restricting American companies' access to cheap foreign labor through visas and tariffs. The result was the production of something never before seen in history: a strong and vibrant middle class.
If the remnants of that modern middle class are to survive - and grow - we must learn the lessons of the past and return to the policies that in the 1780s and the late 1930s brought this nation back from the brink of economic disaster.
You are sooooooo wrong my brother. I go about my business and I achieve/save/succeed, etc.
And you cock suckers are the ones who blamed Clinton, Carter, Freddy Mack, Jennifer Granholm. I spent years defending that woman. Now all my Michigan friends see what she was up against. Now they see I was right. It was the dirty southern Republicans in places like Alabama. ******* traitors to America. Sold out to Toyota and Honda. Sold out to the CEO's who want us to make less, not more. They had record profits while our wages went down. And you were their biggest cheerleader! ******!!
I don't blame the southerns or corporations. They'll push for as much as they can. But now that we know who they are and what their agenda is, it's over for them. The free ******* ride is OVER!!! I have more respect for them than a lap dog like you who thinks you belong. Trust me, you don't.
I just happen to watch the news and know what the GOP government did to us in the last 8 years. If you aren't complaining, then there is something wrong with you. And if you voted for McCain, then you really don't get it.
Then they hand me my freedom, which I want.
I am entitled to freedom, at the expense of the people who died to give it to me.
But Jefferson said:
"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government."
And what about this?
Most of the Founders advocated - and all ultimately passed - tariffs to protect domestic industries and workers. Seventy years later, Abraham Lincoln actively stood up for the right for labor to organize, intervening in several strikes to stop corporations and local governments from using hired goon squads to beat and murder strikers.
Skull Pilot
Diamond Member
- Nov 17, 2007
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What about the violence and intimidation perpetrated by your beloved unions?
Strike Violence and Corruption Charges Tarnish Jim Hoffa's 'New, Improved' Teamster Hierarchy - National Right to Work Committee®
And here's a neat lttle piece on how unions actually slow down job growth.
http://www.nilrr.org/files/Job-Growth%20Advantage%20--%201997-2007%20%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf
Right to Work StatesÂ’ Lead in
Job Growth Consistent Over Time Ten-, Five- and One-Year Increases More Than Double Those of Forced-Dues States
Year after year, U.S. Labor Department data have shown that states with Right to Work laws on the books have far faster private-sector job growth than states that do not protect employees from federal
policies authorizing the termination of workers for refusal to pay dues or fees to an unwanted union.
Between 1997 and 2007, private-sector jobs in Right to Work states increased by a net 17.7%. ThatÂ’s more than double the relatively small increase in private-sector jobs experienced by non-Right to Work states over this period. (See the tables on pages three and four for details.
Oklahoma, which adopted its Right to Work law in 2001, is excluded from this calculation.
However, between 2003, when the Sooner Supreme Court rejected two Big Labor lawsuits designed to overturn the Right to Work law, and 2007, Oklahoma job growth was 7.1%, well over half again as fast as in non-Right to Work states.)
So don't be too quick to toot the union's horn
DiamondDave
Army Vet
You have it
Have health insurance that you pay for, or don't have it
Work as a gay porn actor, or don't
Shoot drugs into your veins, or don't
Rob a bank, or don't
Sit in your house naked all day eating nothing but twinkies, or don't
But live with the consequences of your choices and actions.. and don't expect others (or the government) to bail you out if you fail, or take away more if you succeed....
And your lack of thankfulness and respect towards the people who gave the ultimate sacrifice so you can act like an ignorant and bumbling buffoon, is astounding
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