Crime, incarceration, politics, religion and education

[hazlnut]

Do all these things effect each other? Does crime rise because education is worse? Is education worse because of politics or is it worse because of religion or both?

A lot of nonsense gets banded around on forums like these. So I'm going to make some summaries, then present the statistics in a different post.

Here are some summaries.

Crime is higher Republican states, and it's higher in states with more religious people too.

Incarceration is higher in Republican states and it's higher in states which are religion, and lower in those that are Democrat and less religious

Religion is higher in Republican states and lower in Democrat states

Education is higher in Democrat states and it's higher in states with less religious people.

Gutting our manufacturing industries… outsourcing tens of millions of jobs.

Close abortion clinics.

Crime would be way, way up… only we militarized the police.

It's not personal, it's just business.

The "War on Drugs" resents a billion dollar industry in the U.S. Think of all the people employed in some capacity to arrest, process, and house drug offenders, non-violent or otherwise. Think of all the business and services that provide support needs, technology, IT, weapons to law enforcement. Private prisons… and Rehabs!! They make bank off repeat customers.

The War on Drugs also floats the Mexican economy, banking, and hotel industries, while controlling overpopulation.

We need to invent an cheap opiate that gets you high and sterilizes you with multiple uses.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Do all these things effect each other? Does crime rise because education is worse? Is education worse because of politics or is it worse because of religion or both?

A lot of nonsense gets banded around on forums like these. So I'm going to make some summaries, then present the statistics in a different post.

Here are some summaries.

Crime is higher Republican states, and it's higher in states with more religious people too.

Incarceration is higher in Republican states and it's higher in states which are religion, and lower in those that are Democrat and less religious

Religion is higher in Republican states and lower in Democrat states

Education is higher in Democrat states and it's higher in states with less religious people.

Gutting our manufacturing industries… outsourcing tens of millions of jobs.

Close abortion clinics.

Crime would be way, way up… only we militarized the police.

It's not personal, it's just business.

The "War on Drugs" resents a billion dollar industry in the U.S. Think of all the people employed in some capacity to arrest, process, and house drug offenders, non-violent or otherwise. Think of all the business and services that provide support needs, technology, IT, weapons to law enforcement. Private prisons… and Rehabs!! They make bank off repeat customers.

The War on Drugs also floats the Mexican economy, banking, and hotel industries, while controlling overpopulation.

We need to invent an cheap opiate that gets you high and sterilizes you with multiple uses.

Is there a point anywhere in this rant? If so, could you tell it to me?

 

[NightFox]

You'd first have to know what polici(es) you're talking about since at the state level there is no such thing as a uniform "Republican Policy", frankly I believe your hypothesis is essentially worthless since the variables that effect these particular questions are many and the interactions of those variables are far more complex than simplistic partisanship.

And I'd say this is exactly the problem with US politics. You're saying the facts are worthless.

No, I'm saying that you don't have any relevant "facts" all you have is a theory based on very specious correlation, if you really want to look into this question go find out specifically what those states may have in common relative to specific policies not just some amorphous moniker.

Yes, what I've presented is only a basic. However it says a lot.

Actually it says nothing other than a pretty typical partisan argument of "Republicans bad, Democrats good" which personally I think is nonsense, both parties are in general, crap.

Do you think there is something wrong with general Republican policy?

Define "general Republican policy".

Do you think that policies which put more emphasis on locking people up, rather than education, is the way forward?

Nope, IMHO in general it's an asinine way to do things.

It's clear some Republican states do this, and it's clear it doesn't work. Louisiana is the PERFECT example.

.....and so do some "Democrat" states, which indicates it doesn't really have much to do with the political parties and more to do with what the citizenry in those states want.

 

[frigidweirdo]

You'd first have to know what polici(es) you're talking about since at the state level there is no such thing as a uniform "Republican Policy", frankly I believe your hypothesis is essentially worthless since the variables that effect these particular questions are many and the interactions of those variables are far more complex than simplistic partisanship.

And I'd say this is exactly the problem with US politics. You're saying the facts are worthless.

No, I'm saying that you don't have any relevant "facts" all you have is a theory based on very specious correlation, if you really want to look into this question go find out specifically what those states may have in common relative to specific policies not just some amorphous moniker.

Yes, what I've presented is only a basic. However it says a lot.

Actually it says nothing other than a pretty typical partisan argument of "Republicans bad, Democrats good" which personally I think is nonsense, both parties are in general, crap.

Do you think there is something wrong with general Republican policy?

Define "general Republican policy".

Do you think that policies which put more emphasis on locking people up, rather than education, is the way forward?

Nope, IMHO in general it's an asinine way to do things.

It's clear some Republican states do this, and it's clear it doesn't work. Louisiana is the PERFECT example.

.....and so do some "Democrat" states, which indicates it doesn't really have much to do with the political parties and more to do with what the citizenry in those states want.

Firstly, what I've done is far more than most people ever do on this site. Most of the time people just shout their mouths off about stuff they "believe" to be the case, without any evidence whatsoever.

Secondly, if YOU want to disprove what I've said, why not go and do that. Instead you're just saying "no, no, no, no" which is ridiculous. No wonder the US is a fucking mess and going downhill quickly. Everyone expects others to do everything for them, and if anyone says anything they don't like, they just brush it off, no matter what it is.

Thirdly, we know certain policies that are relevant to the Republicans, but also certain ideologies.

When it comes to education it appears the Republicans think that education is something that should be paid for by parents, that only the basics are really necessary. In some places, generally those higher on the very religious list of states, education is about teaching kids the bible, and skills are simply not necessary.

I'm not saying all states are like this, however there are enough.

A Map of Thousands of Schools That Are Allowed to Teach Creationism With Taxpayer Money

The top two states for creationism are Louisiana and Tennessee.

Louisiana is 5th from bottom of the percentage graduating from high school, Tennessee is 9th from bottom.

Based on bachelor's degrees, Louisiana is again 5th from bottom and Tennessee somehow moves up to 10th from bottom.

Louisiana is top for incarceration rates and Tennessee is 12 in that list.

Like I've said before, this isn't about Republicans being bad and Democrats being good. I'd agree that Democrat policies aren't great either. However, on the partisan front there are plenty of people going around bitching about how Democrats do it all wrong and the Republicans are better. This just isn't true.

General Republican policies would be things that many Republicans would take as core.

Pro-gun, pro-execution, pro-war and military spending, pro-intervention in other countries to make more money, pro-low taxes and pro-lack of spending, pro-individual responsibility and lack of government intervention, anti-gay marriage, anti-anything that isn't considered "normal" (by their standards), anti-abortion, pro-traditional views on things.

Things like this. Not all Republicans are like this, but these are the common things that separate the Republicans from the Democrats. Better to say "Anyone can make it in America (therefore we don't really need to help anyone but ourselves)" would be the Republican motto.


Yep, locking people up instead of focusing on education is ridiculous. Louisiana is one state where this is actual policy. They have a private prison system, for profit and encourages criminals to reoffend so everyone makes more money from the state, and education is all about religious stuff.
But like I've said, not all Republican states are Louisiana, Louisiana is a piss poor example of what a state should look like, non the less, it's a Republican state.

Like I've shown, I presented Religious states, and Republican states from different points of view. What people want in a state can often be shown by who they vote for.

Of the 22 states which have voted Republican the last 4 presidential elections, all of them have at least two of the three elected state positions are Republicans too. Only six of them have 2 out of three. So, you can clearly see they want "Republican values" within those states.

Crime is higher, incarceration is higher in those states.

The reality is the best states to live in are states which have a balance. Not all Democrat, but mostly Democrat with a Republican base. Probably states where people are looking to prevent one party doing what it will and having a check and balance.

Vermont is the best state for low crime, it also has a very good education system, it is all Democrats, but next up for low crime is New Jersey with 1 Republican part to government, Maine and Virginia are down there too, and they'll vote Republican or Democrat when it suits them.

Possibly this is because the people are educated and are willing to think about who they vote for. So red states like Louisiana have no desire to improve education because this would just lead to the party losing its grip on the state.

There are lots of issues here. I didn't intend for this to be a simplistic debate, but one that stems from the statistics that exist.

So, I would appreciate less of the "no, no, no" and a little more of you presenting your case on what you think.

 

[NightFox]

Firstly, what I've done is far more than most people ever do on this site. Most of the time people just shout their mouths off about stuff they "believe" to be the case, without any evidence whatsoever.

Hate to be the one to tell you this but all you've done is regurgitate a specious partisan argument that one can find on any number of partisan BLOGS. I'm just challenging you to make a case based on specifics instead of cherry picked evidence which excludes an enormous number of other factors that might tend to disprove your premise.

Secondly, if YOU want to disprove what I've said, why not go and do that. Instead you're just saying "no, no, no, no" which is ridiculous. No wonder the US is a fucking mess and going downhill quickly. Everyone expects others to do everything for them, and if anyone says anything they don't like, they just brush it off, no matter what it is.

I don't want to "disprove" your argument, I really don't have to since as I've already pointed you don't really have anything worthwhile supporting it, NOW if your argument were solely that poor education is a contributing factor to criminality and asking what factors (including religion) play into that equation and then set about to research ALL the relevant economic and policy factors in each state (including interactions with local and federal policies) then you might be onto something but as it stands right now you really don't have anything, sorry.

Thirdly, we know certain policies that are relevant to the Republicans, but also certain ideologies.

When it comes to education it appears the Republicans think that education is something that should be paid for by parents,

What alternatives are there to pay for education? Children? Pets? Money grown on Trees?

that only the basics are really necessary. In some places, generally those higher on the very religious list of states, education is about teaching kids the bible, and skills are simply not necessary.

This is just highly generalized speculation on your part, where is your evidence that is the prevailing view among "Republicans" or that this belief is encapsulated into specific "Republican policies" at the state level? Do you have any evidence that includes the interaction of specific state policies with local and federal policies along with outcomes? Do you differentiate between the make up of the economies in each state? Do you take into account state demographics and population distribution? What about all the large urban areas that have horrible crime rates and education systems that are dominated by "Democrat policies"?What about outcomes in areas where private education is allowed to compete on a level playing field with "public" education?

So, I would appreciate less of the "no, no, no" and a little more of you presenting your case on what you think.

What I think is that while the issue you raise is significant and worthy of further study in detail, it's not one that I personally have the time (or desire) to delve into to the level of detail and to the degree of consideration that it would take to draw informed conclusions from. The "no, no, no" you seem to be stuck on is simply me pointing out the gigantic flaws in your conclusions since it's readily apparent you don't have anywhere near enough evidence to draw the conclusion that you appear to be dead set on drawing.

For what it's worth I tend to agree with the basic premise that lack of a "good" education is a significant factor to criminality and that it's *possible* that excessive religious piety can play a role in inhibiting that "good" education, however I don't think it can simply be boiled down to which of the two gangs of miscreants happen to control a given state government.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Firstly, what I've done is far more than most people ever do on this site. Most of the time people just shout their mouths off about stuff they "believe" to be the case, without any evidence whatsoever.

Hate to be the one to tell you this but all you've done is regurgitate a specious partisan argument that one can find on any number of partisan BLOGS. I'm just challenging you to make a case based on specifics instead of cherry picked evidence which excludes an enormous number of other factors that might tend to disprove your premise.

Secondly, if YOU want to disprove what I've said, why not go and do that. Instead you're just saying "no, no, no, no" which is ridiculous. No wonder the US is a fucking mess and going downhill quickly. Everyone expects others to do everything for them, and if anyone says anything they don't like, they just brush it off, no matter what it is.

I don't want to "disprove" your argument, I really don't have to since as I've already pointed you don't really have anything worthwhile supporting it, NOW if your argument were solely that poor education is a contributing factor to criminality and asking what factors (including religion) play into that equation and then set about to research ALL the relevant economic and policy factors in each state (including interactions with local and federal policies) then you might be onto something but as it stands right now you really don't have anything, sorry.

Thirdly, we know certain policies that are relevant to the Republicans, but also certain ideologies.

When it comes to education it appears the Republicans think that education is something that should be paid for by parents,

What alternatives are there to pay for education? Children? Pets? Money grown on Trees?

that only the basics are really necessary. In some places, generally those higher on the very religious list of states, education is about teaching kids the bible, and skills are simply not necessary.

This is just highly generalized speculation on your part, where is your evidence that is the prevailing view among "Republicans" or that this belief is encapsulated into specific "Republican policies" at the state level? Do you have any evidence that includes the interaction of specific state policies with local and federal policies along with outcomes? Do you differentiate between the make up of the economies in each state? Do you take into account state demographics and population distribution? What about all the large urban areas that have horrible crime rates and education systems that are dominated by "Democrat policies"?What about outcomes in areas where private education is allowed to compete on a level playing field with "public" education?

So, I would appreciate less of the "no, no, no" and a little more of you presenting your case on what you think.

What I think is that while the issue you raise is significant and worthy of further study in detail, it's not one that I personally have the time (or desire) to delve into to the level of detail and to the degree of consideration that it would take to draw informed conclusions from. The "no, no, no" you seem to be stuck on is simply me pointing out the gigantic flaws in your conclusions since it's readily apparent you don't have anywhere near enough evidence to draw the conclusion that you appear to be dead set on drawing.

For what it's worth I tend to agree with the basic premise that lack of a "good" education is a significant factor to criminality and that it's *possible* that excessive religious piety can play a role in inhibiting that "good" education, however I don't think it can simply be boiled down to which of the two gangs of miscreants happen to control a given state government.

Okay, so you don't appear interested in actually debating this stuff. Well, I'm not going to waffle on when you don't care.

 

[NightFox]

Okay, so you don't appear interested in actually debating this stuff. Well, I'm not going to waffle on when you don't care.

What's there to "debate" ? I've already pointed out the specifics where your argument is exceedingly flawed and incomplete, I also gave you some pointers with respect to addressing those flaws, what were you expecting ? A good ole fashioned partisan apology & excuse tour on behalf of the Republicans? Not gonna happen, I despise the Republicans as much as I despise the Democrats and am not about to come to the defense of either party just to foment some facsimile of a "debate".

 

[frigidweirdo]

Okay, so you don't appear interested in actually debating this stuff. Well, I'm not going to waffle on when you don't care.

What's there to "debate" ? I've already pointed out the specifics where your argument is exceedingly flawed and incomplete, I also gave you some pointers with respect to addressing those flaws, what were you expecting ? A good ole fashioned partisan apology & excuse tour on behalf of the Republicans? Not gonna happen, I despise the Republicans as much as I despise the Democrats and am not about to come to the defense of either party just to foment some facsimile of a "debate".

What is there to debate? Er... lots. But it seems that if you don't care, there's nothing to debate. Nothing about crime, nothing about education, nothing about religion.

Yep, you continue to live in your little bubble and you don't worry about the country going to hell, and then when you see something going bad, you come up with an excuse for why it's going bad that has nothing to do with it, then you'll feel good about it.

 

[NightFox]

Yep, you continue to live in your little bubble and you don't worry about the country going to hell, and then when you see something going bad, you come up with an excuse for why it's going bad that has nothing to do with it, then you'll feel good about it.

OIC and exactly what are you doing to resolve the problem by "debating" it on a message board? Sorry but if you think this is actually fixing anything you're sorely mistaken; this is entertainment, nothing more. If you want to actually do something about the "problem" I would suggest doing some deeper research on the root cause(s) (beyond superficial partisan finger pointing) then going out and actually DOING something.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yep, you continue to live in your little bubble and you don't worry about the country going to hell, and then when you see something going bad, you come up with an excuse for why it's going bad that has nothing to do with it, then you'll feel good about it.

OIC and exactly what are you doing to resolve the problem by "debating" it on a message board? Sorry but if you think this is actually fixing anything you're sorely mistaken; this is entertainment, nothing more. If you want to actually do something about the "problem" I would suggest doing some deeper research on the root cause(s) (beyond superficial partisan finger pointing) then going out and actually DOING something.

I can't believe you replied.

 

[Unkotare]

A lot of typing for nothing. Partisan troll thread is useless circle-jerk waste of bandwidth.

 

[Unkotare]

Spammerific troll thread.