Creation and so forth

[ding]

I made reference earlier to the “probability” conjecture of such things spontaneously coming into existence. But I’m not sure if the spontaneous event can itself occur without some causation.

As near as I can tell according to science the spontaneous creation of matter from nothing should always result in a universe filled with radiation. We shouldn't be here. It's one of the main reasons I believe that mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is the constant presence of Mind that has composed a physical universe and imbibed his creation with his attributes that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

So to answer your question the spontaneous creation of the universe without causation (equal amounts of matter and anti-matter) would always result in a universe filled only with radiation.

Whereas only a universe that was intentionally created out of nothing using nearly equal amounts of matter and anti matter shows causation.

 

[BackAgain]

I'll walk you though it. You will be dangerous by the end of the tour.

The short answer to this question is from a quantum tunneling event and it was created from nothing.

Our universe is made of four kinds of so-called elementary particles: neutrons, protons, electrons, and photons, which are particles of radiation The three particles exist also as antiparticles, the particles constituting matter, the anti-particles anti-matter. When matter comes into contact with anti-matter they mutually annihilate each other, and their masses are instantly turned into radiation according to Einstein’s famous equation, E = mc2, in which E is the energy of the radiation, m is the annihilated mass, and c is the speed of light.

Through experiments we have observed paired particles popping into existence and annihilating themselves leaving only radiation. They always pop into existence as symmetrical pairs. So the most reasonable expectation is that exactly equal numbers of both particles and anti-particles entered the Big Bang - the cosmic explosion in which our universe is thought to have begun - resulting in an enormous compression of material and a tremendous storm of mutual annihilation, ending with the conversion of all the particles and anti-particles into radiation. We should have come out of the Big Bang with a universe containing only radiation.

In 1965, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson at the Bell Telephone Laboratories in New Jersey discovered the cosmic background radiation - a new microwave radiation that fills the universe, coming equally from all directions, wherever one may be. It is by far the dominant radiation in the universe; billions of years of starlight have added to it only negligibly. It is commonly agreed that this is the residue remaining from that gigantic firestorm of mutual annihilation in the Big Bang.

It turns out that there are about one billion photons of that radiation for every proton in the universe. Hence it is thought that what went into the Big Bang were not exactly equal numbers of particles and anti-particles, but that for every billion anti-particles there were one billion and one particles, so that when all the mutual annihilation had happened, there remained over that one particle per billion, and that now constitutes all the matter in the universe -- all the galaxies, the stars and planets, and of course all life.


Are you familiar with paired production and the cosmic background radiation? You can read these links later.

​

Pair production - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

​

Cosmic background radiation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I have read some of that before. My level of comprehension remains low. (Yeah. I know. Not a surprise.)

i also read that the pairs which ought to have been equal obviously weren’t. We know this much because we are full of matter and anti-matter is quite rare and hard to come by.

what I’m not seeing from all of that is what created the subatomic particles in the first place. Where did THEY come from?

No. I’m not “demanding” any answers in case dud is still misinterpreting everything here. But I do remain curious and hopeful that some of the answers (such as yours, ding) might yet offer me a clearer glimpse.

I appreciate your efforts.

 

[ding]

So, if space/time can be curved by gravity, but gravity is dependent upon matter, then there had to be some matter to do that curving in the first place.

No. That is incorrect. The presence of matter creates space and time. Matter warps or distorts space and time. They are integrally linked and cannot be separated. When matter is created spontaneously from nothing gravity is created along with it.

 

[BackAgain]

No. That is incorrect. The presence of matter creates space and time. Matter warps or distorts space and time. They are integrally linked and cannot be separated. When matter is created spontaneously from nothing gravity is created along with it.

I feel a nearly compulsive need to qualify my replies with “I ain’t arguing here, but ….”

Matter has mass and dimension. So it has to exist in some “space.” I’m not sure how it creates the very space it needs to exist In.
Not sure. Lol. I have no clue.

I’m equally lost on how it can create time.

If the warping of space is somehow another way of describing gravity, then it would be matter that some how causes the existence of gravity.

?

 

[ding]

Ok. To clarify: I used “supernatural” to signify ONLY the notion of being outside of what we see as the natural laws of science. Outside. Above. Beyond.

I’ve also read that our normal accepted views of natural laws of science seem to breakdown in the quantum realm. An example of that is “quantum entanglement” which is a phenomenon that has already been replicated in some advanced scientific experiments. That stuff is astounding to me.

I forgot who, but somebody once observed that to a primitive society, our modern technology might appear to be “magic.” My guesswork leads me to speculate that just as quantum-level physics seems to violate our natural “laws” of science, maybe the laws of science we recognize also don’t apply in the physics of creation.. Maybe for the very same reasons?

I'm not sure what you mean by normal accepted views of natural laws of science seem to breakdown in the quantum realm. I believe it is more like there are limitations of the "tools" that we use to describe various physical phenomenon. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. In other words, quantum mechanics follow the laws of nature and are used when other tools reach their limit of what they can describe.

 

[ding]

I have read some of that before. My level of comprehension remains low. (Yeah. I know. Not a surprise.)

i also read that the pairs which ought to have been equal obviously weren’t. We know this much because we are full of matter and anti-matter is quite rare and hard to come by.

what I’m not seeing from all of that is what created the subatomic particles in the first place. Where did THEY come from?

No. I’m not “demanding” any answers in case dud is still misinterpreting everything here. But I do remain curious and hopeful that some of the answers (such as yours, ding) might yet offer me a clearer glimpse.

I appreciate your efforts.

Everyone has to start from somewhere.

The paired particles effectively are nothing. If the number 1 and the number -1 always were produced in pairs you would always have nothing.

The better question is why were there 1 billion and one matter particles for every 1 billion anti matter particles. That should not have happened.

 

[ding]

I feel a nearly compulsive need to qualify my replies with “I ain’t arguing here, but ….”

Matter has mass and dimension. So it has to exist in some “space.” I’m not sure how it creates the very space it needs to exist In.
Not sure. Lol. I have no clue.

I’m equally lost on how it can create time.

If the warping of space is somehow another way of describing gravity, then it would be matter that some how causes the existence of gravity.

?

That's cool. What exactly do you believe those questions have to do with the widely held scientific belief that the big bang was the creation of the universe from nothing?

If you use Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations you end up with all the matter in the universe occupying the space of a single proton and that does not rely on quantum mechanics. That's the limit of his equations.

Matter does cause the existence of gravity. No matter. No gravity.

The most we can say about time is that it is a convenient way to mark the expansion of the universe.

 

[BackAgain]

I'm not sure what you mean by normal accepted views of natural laws of science seem to breakdown in the quantum realm. I believe it is more like there are limitations of the "tools" that we use to describe various physical phenomenon. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. In other words, quantum mechanics follow the laws of nature and are used when other tools reach their limit of what they can describe.

Lol! Picture a man who is a weak swimmer without a flotation device falling overboard in the Atlantic during a hurricane. I’d say that person is in over his head. Almost like me in this thread.

That said: let me ask. If one of the laws of science (as we understand them) says that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, then how can the information presumably necessary for two quantum-entangled objects to perform the exact same actions instantaneously, regardless of their distance from each other, be passed instantaneously?

 

[ding]

Lol! Picture a man who is a weak swimmer without a flotation device falling overboard in the Atlantic during a hurricane. I’d say that person is in over his head. Almost like me in this thread.

That said: let me ask. If one of the laws of science (as we understand them) says that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, then how can the information presumably necessary for two quantum-entangled objects to perform the exact same actions instantaneously regardless of their distance from each other be passed instantaneously?

I suspect because - like gravity - nothing is traveling any distance. Because otherwise, gravity would have the exact same problem.

 

[Indeependent]

Science posits some things we now take for granted. For example, nothing can exist prior to itself.

matter/energy/space/time exist. Where did all this “stuff” come from? Fair question. Tracing it back with observation and science (particularly physics) we seemingly trace it back to the “Big Bang.” But where did the initial super tiny blob of whatever it was come from?

Our reliance on the rules and laws of science breaks down at that point. We call it by another set of names. We call it “quantum” physics and make reference to how the normal scientific laws are suspended at such a point. Basically, we speak of something that is literally outside the bounds of science. It is LITERALLY super-natural. (Not in the sense of the “divine” or “magic” necessarily; just in the sense of requiring explanation that is above and beyond our understanding of scientific “laws”.).

The geniuses who work in the fields of quantum physics and theoretical physics may be able — in a fashion — to explain how absolute nothing led to the infinitesimal “thing” that went “bang” thereby crating all matter/energy and space itself as well as time. But cannot explain the “why” of it all?

What, exactly, perturbed an absolutely empty void where no energy and no matter existed in no space and outside the parameters of time in order to set the Big Bang and all of creation in the cosmos into motion? Why would absolutely nothing lead to something?

(I placed this post in the science section; but I think it might be logically and fairly placed in a religion section, too.)

If you check out YouTube, you'll find out quickly that physicists admit they don't know what the hell they are talking about.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Somewhere in the Castaneda books, Don Juan explain to Carlos that, with respect to mankind, the Mexican Seers understood the Universe is comprised of the Known (teeny tiny portion directly accessible to mankind), the Unknown (a tiny sliver that mankind is capable of perceiving and The Unknowable (mankind simply lacks the necessary skills to perceive this overwhelmingly, vast majority of the Universe)

 

[BackAgain]

I suspect because - like gravity - nothing is traveling any distance. Because otherwise, gravity would have the exact same problem.

If 2 quantum entangled objects are a full light year away from each other, and one is turned over at 1 location it is also instantaneously turned over in the other location. The information had to travel from place one to place 2 or else there would be no way for the 2nd object to figuratively “know” that object 1 had flipped.

and it would have to travel a boat load faster than the speed of light.

 

[BackAgain]

If you check out YouTube, you'll find out quickly that physicists admit they don't know what the hell they are talking about.

Lol.

That may be true. I guess in that limited sense, I could be a physicist.

 

[ding]

If a2 quantum entangled objects are full light year away from each other, and one is turned over at 1 location it is also instantaneously turned over in the other location. The information had to travel from place one to place 2 or else there would be no way for the 2nd object to figuratively “know” that object 1 had flipped.

and it would have to travel a boat load faster than the speed of light.

I am saying no information is travelling. Has anyone that you know of proposed how or what is traveling from one object to the other?

 

[BackAgain]

Somewhere in the Castaneda books, Don Juan explain to Carlos that, with respect to mankind, the Mexican Seers understood the Universe is comprised of the Known (teeny tiny portion directly accessible to mankind), the Unknown (a tiny sliver that mankind is capable of perceiving and The Unknowable (mankind simply lacks the necessary skills to perceive this overwhelmingly, vast majority of the Universe)

I assumed that was just the Peyote talking.

 

[BackAgain]

I am saying no information is travelling. Has anyone that you know of proposed how or what is traveling from one object to the other?

If the information isn’t traveling, then how does one object (proverbially) “know” what the other object is doing so far away?

 

[ding]

If the information isn’t traveling, then how does one object (proverbially) “know” what the other object is doing so far away?

Same way that gravity doesn't travel. It's part of the fabric of the existence of matter itself. It has to be that way.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I assumed that was just the Peyote talking.

It's actually quite sober and spot on, but yeah, Mescalito might have helped

 

[BackAgain]

It's actually quite sober and spot on, but yeah, Mescalito might have helped

I read A Separate Reality when I was In High school. I can’t pretend I grokked it all that well at the time. Haven’t read it since.

 

[Grumblenuts]

"Magical!" -- Yours Truly

Not really. You seem to believe that something can come from absolutely nothing. I find that quite unscientific. Or, to put into your severely limited parlance, “magical.”

Funny since I've clearly stated the opposite at least once here while you've been the one busy promoting nothing but the usual steaming pile of preloaded magical hogwash. You have to work at forgetting all that crap, open your mind, and above all actually want to listen and try to understand some things you've clearly never considered. However, you've now succeeded in convincing me that that will never happen. Oh well. Your loss.

Science posits some things we now take for granted. For example, nothing can exist prior to itself.

No, idiot, the egg really did precede the chicken.

It looks like either Matter/energy/space/time all came into existence without causation OR God did.

Magical!