Country With the World's Most Successful Education System

[Big Fitz]

So how do you get better teachers? Propably by having "Teacher" as a respectable job that pays decently enough.

Most teachers in the DC area are extremely well paid and respected by the liberals who live there. They still have the worst education system in the nation. The problem isn't with paying the teachers better than what they can get in the private sector, it's the administrative waste and social engineering they're trying to do through the system to perpetuate a political mindset. Most of the cash is sucked up by the lawyers and the unions and the admins and all things NOT related to the schools operations in many cases.

Then you get dumbasses who've never had to be effective in their life with creating quality.. just used to getting paid for time in grade and for college credits. That is how teachers are paid in the public sector for the vast majority of the jobs. It's the union way. You've been in job 5 years and have a masters and you get paid this much. There is no difference in pay between the best and the worst teacher in pay. If you based pay on performance benefits as measured through an independent accounting, you'd see both quality rise and shit teachers get removed.

Performance pay is the best way to ensure quality jobs. Or even if you don't do a 'commission style' bonus system, you base raises on performance, you'd still be light years ahead because effort would be rewarded, not ignored.

 

[Big Fitz]

Secondly: Who is better in guaging the progress of a student? Some kind of nationwide test or the teacher that actually works with the student? The USA goes for "Nationwide test", the Fins go for the decentralised small state solution: "leave that to the teacher who actually teaches the kid on a daily basis".

The DOE needs to be dismantled and given back to each individual state. Not only is a national education system unconstitutional, it's incredibly ineffectual and inefficient. Power and resources pool at the top where it is far removed from main street. Each state should be given those resources to do with as they see fit. Better still would be for the states to then turn them over to the individual communities. It'd be preferable if at best you had either a state graduation board the students had to pass, or if you MUST have a national standards evaluation given to the students, but even that's overstepping a lot.

 

[Samson]

OR we could make excuses...

.

Excuses for not having? ....what exactly? A school system like Finland?

Do I really need to post demographic data for the USA so we can understand that we're comparing two completely different govenments, geographies, histories, cultures, etc., etc?

Cuckoo?
So tell me, is America falling way behind in all areas except arresting and incarcerating human beings because certain ethnic groups are unable to learn? Or...maybe America has become an Oligarchy, and the Reagan revolution and the Contract with America were really a contract to sell out a vital middle class for wealthy corporations and a powerful elite?

THEIR kids aren't suffering are they?

It's education for all. And each child matters. So what lessons can we learn from Finland?

America say NOTHING...you f_cking leftists don't know shit!

ERM.....yeah....I shouldn't have said ..."..cuckoo...."

What I should have said was:

 

[Big Fitz]

It's education for all. And each child matters. So what lessons can we learn from Finland?

Um... drop social engineering, diversity training, feelgood studies, participation awards and multiculturalism and get to real education? Just sayin'.

America say NOTHING...you f_cking leftists don't know shit!

Wait... you're saying your conservative??? And you're touting a socialist (all be it decent) system?

 

[Samson]

It's education for all. And each child matters. So what lessons can we learn from Finland?

Um... drop social engineering, diversity training, feelgood studies, participation awards and multiculturalism and get to real education? Just sayin'.

Yes, what we can learn from Finland (where there is no "diversity") is:

Given the chance to concentrate on the teaching and learning of subject matter, Teachers and Students perform pretty well.

Yes, I know, its pretty shocking, and even more astonishing is that I didn't apply for a $100,000 Government Grant to spend a couple of years gathering data to support this conclusion, which would certainly insure I would become the parriah of the "Educational Establishment."

 

[rdean]

Waah It is all the immigrants fault!

Ohh wait most all of us are immigrants or descended from immigrants

how many non-finnish speakers from the 3rd world are flooding their classrooms?.....just wonderin...

Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Personal stories rarely translate into what is going on nationwide, but I work in an engineering department. Two of the engineers came from Mexico and learned English here. Both also work part time. One tutors physics at the University of Chicago, the other works part time managing another companies data base. A third engineer comes from Bolivia. She also learned English here and is now the head electrical engineer. A fourth engineer comes from Pakistan but already spoke English when he came here. Another engineer just started and she also learned English here and is from Mexico. And finally, another engineer quit and started his own company in California. He learned English here and came from India.

Because students come here without speaking English isn't dragging down our students. They do that on their own with video games and parents who feed them Nachos and let them endlessly watch TV and who rarely are involved in their children's lives. Add the right who want to teach the occult as an "alternative" to science and you have our modern day educational system.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Because students come here without speaking English isn't dragging down our students. They do that on their own with video games and parents who feed them Nachos and let them endlessly watch TV and who rarely are involved in their children's lives. Add the right who want to teach the occult as an "alternative" to science and you have our modern day educational system.

hey Dean.....come to California.....this is and has been one of the bigger problems in the grade schools for quite some time.....it was a problem at my sons school when he was in grade school....and he is 30 now.....and according to the mothers with grade schoolers now....it still is....and grade school is were these kids have got to learn the basics.....

 

[Samson]

Waah It is all the immigrants fault!

Ohh wait most all of us are immigrants or descended from immigrants

how many non-finnish speakers from the 3rd world are flooding their classrooms?.....just wonderin...

Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Personal stories rarely translate into what is going on nationwide, but I work in an engineering department. Two of the engineers came from Mexico and learned English here. Both also work part time. One tutors physics at the University of Chicago, the other works part time managing another companies data base. A third engineer comes from Bolivia. She also learned English here and is now the head electrical engineer. A fourth engineer comes from Pakistan but already spoke English when he came here. Another engineer just started and she also learned English here and is from Mexico. And finally, another engineer quit and started his own company in California. He learned English here and came from India.

Because students come here without speaking English isn't dragging down our students. They do that on their own with video games and parents who feed them Nachos and let them endlessly watch TV and who rarely are involved in their children's lives. Add the right who want to teach the occult as an "alternative" to science and you have our modern day educational system.

You're absolutely correct: there IS a LARGE element of Parental Responsibility involved.

So why would Finnish parents be better parents than US parents?

Another question you might ask your colleagues: Why didn't they go to work in Finland?

 

[rdean]

how many non-finnish speakers from the 3rd world are flooding their classrooms?.....just wonderin...

Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Personal stories rarely translate into what is going on nationwide, but I work in an engineering department. Two of the engineers came from Mexico and learned English here. Both also work part time. One tutors physics at the University of Chicago, the other works part time managing another companies data base. A third engineer comes from Bolivia. She also learned English here and is now the head electrical engineer. A fourth engineer comes from Pakistan but already spoke English when he came here. Another engineer just started and she also learned English here and is from Mexico. And finally, another engineer quit and started his own company in California. He learned English here and came from India.

Because students come here without speaking English isn't dragging down our students. They do that on their own with video games and parents who feed them Nachos and let them endlessly watch TV and who rarely are involved in their children's lives. Add the right who want to teach the occult as an "alternative" to science and you have our modern day educational system.

You're absolutely correct: there IS a LARGE element of Parental Responsibility involved.

So why would Finnish parents be better parents than US parents?

Another question you might ask your colleagues: Why didn't they go to work in Finland?

Because most could "drive" here?

 

[rdean]

Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Because students come here without speaking English isn't dragging down our students. They do that on their own with video games and parents who feed them Nachos and let them endlessly watch TV and who rarely are involved in their children's lives. Add the right who want to teach the occult as an "alternative" to science and you have our modern day educational system.

hey Dean.....come to California.....this is and has been one of the bigger problems in the grade schools for quite some time.....it was a problem at my sons school when he was in grade school....and he is 30 now.....and according to the mothers with grade schoolers now....it still is....and grade school is were these kids have got to learn the basics.....

Sorry, I'm not feeling it. Because other students speak Spanish your son's grades suffer?
Did he even like school?

 

[PoliticalChic]

But...But...But.... progressive education doesn't work

I'd point out, that the big secret here is that Finland has made education a priority, something many of the individual States in the Union did not do. The States hit the hardest by the loss of manufacturing jobs overseas are often the States that prioritized education lowest.

There are good high paying jobs in the USA still, and good successful companies looking for homes. The trick is, to get that job, and to draw in that company you and your community have had to make education a priority.

Several times I have indicated a deep interest in education on the board, and have championed traditional education and abhorred progressive education.

For those reasons, I was interested in the OP, and a topic about which I knew very little, education in Finland. I engaged in some study, which allows me to argue against the nature of the thread.

The essence of the thread, it seemed to me was a) Finland does a much better job in educating than we do in America, b) Finland uses progressive education, c) progressive education is effective.

As in any discussion, a definition of terms is often de rigueur, especially were some point is supposedly made. These are some of my notes about education in Finland.

1. Education after primary school is divided into vocational and academic systems, according to the old German model. ages 15–19 are spent either in a trade school, or in an academic-oriented upper secondary school. Their integration has been tried (so-called "youth school" experiments), but the conclusion was to keep them separate

2. A national speciality in contrast to some foreign systems is the academic matriculation diploma (Abitur) received after successful completion of upper secondary school, which holds a high prestige. Education in Finland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3. Upper secondary school, unlike vocational school, concludes with a nationally graded matriculation examination (ylioppilastutkinto, studentexamen). Passing the test is a de facto prerequisite for further education. The system is designed so that approximately the lowest scoring 5% fails and also 5% get the best grade. The exam allows for a limited degree of specialization in either natural sciences or social sciences. Universities may use the test score in the matriculation examination to accept students
a. During the first years of primary school, grading may be limited to verbal assessments rather than formal grades. The start of numerical grading is decided locally. If a comprehensive school pupil receives the grade 4 in one subject at the end of the spring term, they must show by a separate examination at the end of summer term that they have improved in the subject. If the pupil receives multiple failing grades, they may have to retake the year.

4.. The key words in Finnish education policy are quality, efficiency, equity and internationalisation. Education is a factor for competitiveness. EDU - The Education System of Finland

5. Encouraging assessment and evaluation
The student assessment and evaluation of education and learning outcomes are encouraging and supportive by nature. The aim is to produce information that supports both schools and students to develop. National testing, school ranking lists and inspection systems do not exist. EDU - The Education System of Finland

6. A flexible system based on empowerment
The education system is flexible and the administration based on the principal of “Centralised steering – local implementation”. Steering is conducted through legislation and norms, core curricula, government planning and information steering. Municipalities are responsible for the provision of education and the implementation. Schools and teachers enjoy large autonomy.

7. A student-oriented, active conception of learning
The organisation of schoolwork and education is based on a conception of learning that focuses on students' activity and interaction with the teacher, other students and the learning environment.

8. Primary-school teachers all have master's degrees, and the profession is one of the most revered in Finnish society. Finnish primary-school teachers have an unusual level of autonomy over the curriculum, a noted difference to the centralized approach in Ontario. They may choose their own textbooks, as long as they adhere to the core national curriculum. Board authorities do not inspect classrooms.

9. Polls show that the teaching profession in Finland is very high-status, and one of the country's most sought-after jobs. "More than 10 people apply to be primary-school teachers for every spot we have in university," noted Prof. Malaty, who attributes this to the profession's unique culture and status.
Early education's top model: Finland - The Globe and Mail

10. All Finnish teachers are required to be master'sdegree graduates, no matter whether they teach primary or secondary students.

11. About 96 per cent of Finnish students have a very strong interest in continuing with secondary and higherlevel education after the compulsory primary school. The country has a strong network of universitieshttp://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/09/28/national/national_30113177.php

12. Another special aspect that encourages reading in the home environment is that when children watch international movies on TV, they have to learn to read quickly enough to follow subtitles in Finnish, while the soundtrack carries the original language. Other European countries don't use subtitles as much because movies are dubbed into their own languageshttp://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/09/28/national/national_30113177.php


At odds with progressive education is the concept of competition, and testing.
Therefore, Finland’s education cannot be classified as progressive.

Further, consider the separation of students by ability, as in “either in a trade school, or in an academic-oriented upper secondary school.” This is much more along the lines of traditional education.

So in conclusion, while the liberals among us would like to take on the cloak of Finland’s success, I say that it is more than capricious to do so, and if one camp or the other is represented by Finland, it would be the conservative, traditional one, which values success over self-esteem.

Further, look at these paragons of progressive education, and see if this looks like Finland to you:

The Little Red Schoolhouse, Manhattan: “Our experience nurtures social consciousness and ethical awarness…Drawing on the rich legacy of progressive tradition, we believe that education is organic, developmental and interactive process of growth encompassing all aspects of the child’s nature.”

And the Prairie Creek Community School, Northfield, Minnesota: “Assessment is authentic and holistic. Children are well known by their teachers and peers. There are no tests or letter grades. Instead, narrative reports are written about children that cover all aspects of their development: social, emotional, personal, physical and intellectual.”

So, in summary, while there are aspects that might be considered as progressive, the nature of education in Finland seems to be more aligned with a testing regimen, and does not eschew competition.

 

[Samson]

But...But...But.... progressive education doesn't work

I'd point out, that the big secret here is that Finland has made education a priority, something many of the individual States in the Union did not do. The States hit the hardest by the loss of manufacturing jobs overseas are often the States that prioritized education lowest.

There are good high paying jobs in the USA still, and good successful companies looking for homes. The trick is, to get that job, and to draw in that company you and your community have had to make education a priority.

Several times I have indicated a deep interest in education on the board, and have championed traditional education and abhorred progressive education.

For those reasons, I was interested in the OP, and a topic about which I knew very little, education in Finland. I engaged in some study, which allows me to argue against the nature of the thread.

The essence of the thread, it seemed to me was a) Finland does a much better job in educating than we do in America, b) Finland uses progressive education, c) progressive education is effective.

...............................................................................


At odds with progressive education is the concept of competition, and testing.
Therefore, Finland’s education cannot be classified as progressive.

Further, consider the separation of students by ability, as in “either in a trade school, or in an academic-oriented upper secondary school.” This is much more along the lines of traditional education.

So in conclusion, while the liberals among us would like to take on the cloak of Finland’s success, I say that it is more than capricious to do so, and if one camp or the other is represented by Finland, it would be the conservative, traditional one, which values success over self-esteem.

Further, look at these paragons of progressive education, and see if this looks like Finland to you:

The Little Red Schoolhouse, Manhattan: “Our experience nurtures social consciousness and ethical awarness…Drawing on the rich legacy of progressive tradition, we believe that education is organic, developmental and interactive process of growth encompassing all aspects of the child’s nature.”

And the Prairie Creek Community School, Northfield, Minnesota: “Assessment is authentic and holistic. Children are well known by their teachers and peers. There are no tests or letter grades. Instead, narrative reports are written about children that cover all aspects of their development: social, emotional, personal, physical and intellectual.”

So, in summary, while there are aspects that might be considered as progressive, the nature of education in Finland seems to be more aligned with a testing regimen, and does not eschew competition.

OK, ok, ok........because you have a hawt blonde chick in the Avatar, I'll lean toward the traditional male, rather than the progressive male, responce.

Teachers in the USA have no choice other than a "progressive" teaching method. Whether we like it or not, there are wide economic divisions in the USA between races. The economic divisions translate into cultural divisions, which value education differently. I could, but will not, offer the mountain of "peer-reviewed" empirical evidence to support this.

Since Finland is culturally homogeneous, and the culture places a high value on education, progressive education would be meaningless. Yes, certainly Finlands approach to education is traditional, but to say that because traditional methods work in Homogeneous Finland, then they would be effective in the USA is simply ludicrous.

 

[PoliticalChic]

But...But...But.... progressive education doesn't work

I'd point out, that the big secret here is that Finland has made education a priority, something many of the individual States in the Union did not do. The States hit the hardest by the loss of manufacturing jobs overseas are often the States that prioritized education lowest.

There are good high paying jobs in the USA still, and good successful companies looking for homes. The trick is, to get that job, and to draw in that company you and your community have had to make education a priority.

Several times I have indicated a deep interest in education on the board, and have championed traditional education and abhorred progressive education.

For those reasons, I was interested in the OP, and a topic about which I knew very little, education in Finland. I engaged in some study, which allows me to argue against the nature of the thread.

The essence of the thread, it seemed to me was a) Finland does a much better job in educating than we do in America, b) Finland uses progressive education, c) progressive education is effective.

...............................................................................


At odds with progressive education is the concept of competition, and testing.
Therefore, Finland’s education cannot be classified as progressive.

Further, consider the separation of students by ability, as in “either in a trade school, or in an academic-oriented upper secondary school.” This is much more along the lines of traditional education.

So in conclusion, while the liberals among us would like to take on the cloak of Finland’s success, I say that it is more than capricious to do so, and if one camp or the other is represented by Finland, it would be the conservative, traditional one, which values success over self-esteem.

Further, look at these paragons of progressive education, and see if this looks like Finland to you:

The Little Red Schoolhouse, Manhattan: “Our experience nurtures social consciousness and ethical awarness…Drawing on the rich legacy of progressive tradition, we believe that education is organic, developmental and interactive process of growth encompassing all aspects of the child’s nature.”

And the Prairie Creek Community School, Northfield, Minnesota: “Assessment is authentic and holistic. Children are well known by their teachers and peers. There are no tests or letter grades. Instead, narrative reports are written about children that cover all aspects of their development: social, emotional, personal, physical and intellectual.”

So, in summary, while there are aspects that might be considered as progressive, the nature of education in Finland seems to be more aligned with a testing regimen, and does not eschew competition.

OK, ok, ok........because you have a hawt blonde chick in the Avatar, I'll lean toward the traditional male, rather than the progressive male, responce.

Teachers in the USA have no choice other than a "progressive" teaching method. Whether we like it or not, there are wide economic divisions in the USA between races. The economic divisions translate into cultural divisions, which value education differently. I could, but will not, offer the mountain of "peer-reviewed" empirical evidence to support this.

Since Finland is culturally homogeneous, and the culture places a high value on education, progressive education would be meaningless. Yes, certainly Finlands approach to education is traditional, but to say that because traditional methods work in Homogeneous Finland, then they would be effective in the USA is simply ludicrous.

Appreciate the kind words.

And, "Teachers in the USA have no choice other than a "progressive" teaching method..." you are correct as far as you go.

But please show where teachers have resisted these less than successful methods. Some are 'useful idiots,' but most are "willful accessories to the crime." This, in fact, is one of the reasons that US teachers are not held in as high esteem as those in Finland.

Finnish teachers, it seems are not chained to methodology.

Now, as to "because traditional methods work in Homogeneous Finland, then they would be effective in the USA is simply ludicrous," your language implies, actually means, 'an obvious absurdity.'

You have overextended. Unless you can show that traditional methods work less well than the progressive in comparable situations, then it is clearly not 'ludicrous.'

".... Among progressives the emphasis is on “process,” and there is disparagement
of “mere facts.” Suffice it to say that Hirsch has shown with devastating clarity that
reading, which could be called the most basic “skill,” cannot be done with understanding
unless the reader has the background knowledge expected by writers
Again the consensus in cognitive science and mainstream psychology is that these techniques, strategies and skills are content-bound and should be acquired as by-products of the study of significant and interesting texts...

Data are already available that show that students in nonprogressive
schools achieve at higher rates than those in progressive schools and that
students from deprived backgrounds do better in non-progressive schools. Comparative studies of student achievement have consistently shown that students from the U.S. do poorly, especially in science and mathematics, when compared with students from other industrialized nations. It is, to be sure, not surprising if students from schools which stress hard work, practice, memorization and mastery of content do better on standardized tests. Data from comparative studies have already provided ammunition for those who consider
progressive education a seriously flawed philosophy of education that should be exposed
and rejected..."

http://www.macalester.edu/~reedy/Samos07-ULTIssima-3[1].pdf

Further
Pedagogy

Look forward to your discussion.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Waah It is all the immigrants fault!

Ohh wait most all of us are immigrants or descended from immigrants

how many non-finnish speakers from the 3rd world are flooding their classrooms?.....just wonderin...

Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Personal stories rarely translate into what is going on nationwide, but I work in an engineering department. Two of the engineers came from Mexico and learned English here. Both also work part time. One tutors physics at the University of Chicago, the other works part time managing another companies data base. A third engineer comes from Bolivia. She also learned English here and is now the head electrical engineer. A fourth engineer comes from Pakistan but already spoke English when he came here. Another engineer just started and she also learned English here and is from Mexico. And finally, another engineer quit and started his own company in California. He learned English here and came from India.

Because students come here without speaking English isn't dragging down our students. They do that on their own with video games and parents who feed them Nachos and let them endlessly watch TV and who rarely are involved in their children's lives. Add the right who want to teach the occult as an "alternative" to science and you have our modern day educational system.

To me, complimenting deanie-weenie is like fingernails on the backboard.

And, it is also rare.

But the boy deserves a pat on the head, and I will rep him as well:
that last paragraph is prescient!

We allow more TV watching by our broods than any other comparable nation.

Bravo, deanie!

 

[manu1959]

yep.....went to school in danmark.....no diferentiated learningthere...keep up or fail....bad teachers are not protected by the teachers union....perform or be fired....and last but not least if you can't pass the university entrance exam...it is off to vocational school for you....

i don't see the powers that be tollerating that on us soil...

 

[Samson]

But please show where teachers have resisted these less than successful methods. Some are 'useful idiots,' but most are "willful accessories to the crime." This, in fact, is one of the reasons that US teachers are not held in as high esteem as those in Finland.

OK, I have resisted progressive methods.

And as a result I was held in less "esteem" by parents (and administrators) who are much more concerned about their kid passing on to the next grade level than they are of their kid learning anything. I'm not sure who in Finland holds teachers in High Esteem (and how the job's popularity is a function of this is more than a little debateable....but let's focus here).

In the USA, PARENTS' "esteem" is really all that counts.

Now, as to "because traditional methods work in Homogeneous Finland, then they would be effective in the USA is simply ludicrous," your language implies, actually means, 'an obvious absurdity.'

You have overextended. Unless you can show that traditional methods work less well than the progressive in comparable situations, then it is clearly not 'ludicrous.'

Well, since the thread was about Finland's traditional methods vs the USA's progressive methods, and these situations are nothing close to "comparable," then the comparison is obviously absurd. But the point is well taken: Has the USA tried to homogenise educational experiences? Are these experiences successful?

The answers are Yes, and Yes. Males and Females achieve much more in gender segregated schools, as do racial and ethnic groups. But along with their Academic Acheivement, Apartheid naturally fosters less understanding of diverse groups. Since the US has many such groups, and we have a quasi-democratic form of government, it would be socially counterproductive to segregate our schools to maximize learning, but to Balkanize the populaltion.

 

[PoliticalChic]

But please show where teachers have resisted these less than successful methods. Some are 'useful idiots,' but most are "willful accessories to the crime." This, in fact, is one of the reasons that US teachers are not held in as high esteem as those in Finland.

OK, I have resisted progressive methods.

And as a result I was held in less "esteem" by parents (and administrators) who are much more concerned about their kid passing on to the next grade level than they are of their kid learning anything. I'm not sure who in Finland holds teachers in High Esteem (and how the job's popularity is a function of this is more than a little debateable....but let's focus here).

In the USA, PARENTS' "esteem" is really all that counts.

Now, as to "because traditional methods work in Homogeneous Finland, then they would be effective in the USA is simply ludicrous," your language implies, actually means, 'an obvious absurdity.'

You have overextended. Unless you can show that traditional methods work less well than the progressive in comparable situations, then it is clearly not 'ludicrous.'

Well, since the thread was about Finland's traditional methods vs the USA's progressive methods, and these situations are nothing close to "comparable," then the comparison is obviously absurd. But the point is well taken: Has the USA tried to homogenise educational experiences? Are these experiences successful?

The answers are Yes, and Yes. Males and Females achieve much more in gender segregated schools, as do racial and ethnic groups. But along with their Academic Acheivement, Apartheid naturally fosters less understanding of diverse groups. Since the US has many such groups, and we have a quasi-democratic form of government, it would be socially counterproductive to segregate our schools to maximize learning, but to Balkanize the populaltion.

1."...it would be socially counterproductive to segregate our schools to maximize learning, but to Balkanize the populaltion..."
Total conjecture on your part. I don't know who you are quoting as to this end.

2. No one, as far as I can see, in this thread has suggested "Apartheid" in education. Only you. Generally, when one changes the subject, it is based on less than full faith in their argument.
I don't know you well enough, but will leave that judgement for yourself.

3. Back to the subject at hand. Since you have identified yourself as one who rejected progressive education, and have admitted certain difficulties with peers as a result, you are agreeing to the deleterious effects of progressive education.
Why, then, do you see so many of your colleages championing same?

4. "I'm not sure who in Finland holds teachers in High Esteem ...' I'm quoting some of the writings that I noted in an earlier post in this thread. And it claimed that there are 10 applicants for each position, not based on salary. I think this might indicate general esteem.

5. "...Finland's traditional methods vs the USA's progressive methods, and these situations are nothing close to "comparable"..."
Sure they are. We are comparing one aspect: the results of the educational system on educational results, as judged by international competition.

You have agreed that one is more progressive, the other more traditional. And you have edged away from progressive methods in your own experience. And that indicates...what?
That you are more dedicated?
That you are wiser?
That you are willing to work harder than your peers?
Possibly that you are aware that progressive education is political, not pedagogical.

Almost religious. A faith, not a teaching methodology.
Or, why continue with a failing idea, other than it being based on faith.

Look, any parent who wishes to send their treasure to Summerhill, or the Little Red Schoolhouse, fine. Go ahead.

The problem is that public schools are compulsory, they are compulsorily progressive.

 

[Samson]

1."...it would be socially counterproductive to segregate our schools to maximize learning, but to Balkanize the populaltion..."
Total conjecture on your part. I don't know who you are quoting as to this end.

Do you know the definition of Balkanise?

2. No one, as far as I can see, in this thread has suggested "Apartheid" in education. Only you. Generally, when one changes the subject, it is based on less than full faith in their argument.
I don't know you well enough, but will leave that judgement for yourself.

The "traditional" education of Finland has Homogeneous classrooms. The only way to achieve this in the USA would be to involk an "Apartheid" in educational settings so that one class would, say, only contain white, ethnically Polish, males, whilst in the classroom next door, we would have Latina's of Honduran ancestory.

3. Back to the subject at hand. Since you have identified yourself as one who rejected progressive education, and have admitted certain difficulties with peers as a result, you are agreeing to the deleterious effects of progressive education.
Why, then, do you see so many of your colleages championing same?

I rejected progressive education as a somewhat naive, "New" teacher, bent upon doing what I thought was the correct (traditional) teaching method. As with everything, and particlarly the young, the School of Hard Knocks prevailed upon me that what I thought was immaterial. What WAS material was what parents thought. It is no coincidence that the goals of progressive education conspire to synchronise themselves with the goals of parents.

4. "I'm not sure who in Finland holds teachers in High Esteem ...' I'm quoting some of the writings that I noted in an earlier post in this thread. And it claimed that there are 10 applicants for each position, not based on salary. I think this might indicate general esteem.

Well, I suppose I could reject this as "total conjecture on your part." But then, you could as easily dismiss my less extraploitive theory that in Finland the number of graduates with Masters Degrees in Elementary Education (supply) exceeds the demand.

5. "...Finland's traditional methods vs the USA's progressive methods, and these situations are nothing close to "comparable"..."
Sure they are. We are comparing one aspect: the results of the educational system on educational results, as judged by international competition.

The RESULTS are comparable, not the situations.

Look, any parent who wishes to send their treasure to Summerhill, or the Little Red Schoolhouse, fine. Go ahead.

The problem is that public schools are compulsory, they are compulsorily progressive.

There is no mention of education, much less compulsory education, in the US Constitution. Therefore, it is up to individual states to decide if education should be compulsory.

Of course, since even suggesting that a High School's Football Budget might be cut will get you politically lynched, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting to move to a state without compulsory education.

 

[PoliticalChic]

1."...it would be socially counterproductive to segregate our schools to maximize learning, but to Balkanize the populaltion..."
Total conjecture on your part. I don't know who you are quoting as to this end.

2. No one, as far as I can see, in this thread has suggested "Apartheid" in education. Only you. Generally, when one changes the subject, it is based on less than full faith in their argument.
I don't know you well enough, but will leave that judgement for yourself.

The "traditional" education of Finland has Homogeneous classrooms. The only way to achieve this in the USA would be to involk an "Apartheid" in educational settings so that one class would, say, only contain white, ethnically Polish, males, whilst in the classroom next door, we would have Latina's of Honduran ancestory.



I rejected progressive education as a somewhat naive, "New" teacher, bent upon doing what I thought was the correct (traditional) teaching method. As with everything, and particlarly the young, the School of Hard Knocks prevailed upon me that what I thought was immaterial. What WAS material was what parents thought. It is no coincidence that the goals of progressive education conspire to synchronise themselves with the goals of parents.



Well, I suppose I could reject this as "total conjecture on your part." But then, you could as easily dismiss my less extraploitive theory that in Finland the number of graduates with Masters Degrees in Elementary Education (supply) exceeds the demand.

5. "...Finland's traditional methods vs the USA's progressive methods, and these situations are nothing close to "comparable"..."
Sure they are. We are comparing one aspect: the results of the educational system on educational results, as judged by international competition.

The RESULTS are comparable, not the situations.

Look, any parent who wishes to send their treasure to Summerhill, or the Little Red Schoolhouse, fine. Go ahead.

The problem is that public schools are compulsory, they are compulsorily progressive.

There is no mention of education, much less compulsory education, in the US Constitution. Therefore, it is up to individual states to decide if education should be compulsory.

Of course, since even suggesting that a High School's Football Budget might be cut will get you politically lynched, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting to move to a state without compulsory education.

1. "Do you know the definition of Balkanise?"
Of course, and since this has nothing to do with the discussion, it must be deflection on your part.
It's 'Balkanize' in this country.

2. "As with everything, and particlarly the young, the School of Hard Knocks prevailed upon me..."
Rather than the heartbeat-by-heartbeat recitation of your life, let's return to the thread.
The OP suggested that the excellent results obtained by Finland was, I think, somehow related to progessive education.
I found in my research that Finland uses a more traditional methodology than implied .

3. I beleive that a return to traditional education in the United States would, contrary to your view, have a salutary effect.

4. The rest of your exposition is tortuous at best.

 

[Samson]

3. I beleive that a return to traditional education in the United States would, contrary to your view, have a salutary effect.

"have a salutary effect?"

you mean "it would be beneficial." To whom?

I apologise, but you're approach is so astonishingly academic it ignores even the most basic problems associated with, "a return to traditional education in the United States" not the least being that there IS NO United States education system.

Now, continue to extrapolate the number of Finnish angels that might dance on the head of a non existant pin.