Conservatives are Socialists

Boss

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Could Boss have possibly lost his mind? What the hell, man? How can he possibly explain this argument? It appears to completely fly in the face of conventional wisdom and is a contradiction of terms. How can Conservatives be Socialists? Well, this is what we shall examine in this OP.

First, let's clarify a few things. Socialism as we know it, is an ideology. It is the notion that top-down government control of things is more beneficial to the people than private sector control. Conservatism is not an ideology, it is a way of thinking, a philosophy rather than ideology. It is the belief in pragmatic time-tested solutions which have proven to provide results. Therefore, a Conservative can indeed believe in pragmatic socialistic remedies for particular problems, if the socialistic remedies are effective and work.

We often hear liberals chortle about roads, police, fire departments, snow plows... all being "socialist" yet widely supported and embraced by all in society, including Conservatives. This is true, and I will add a few more things as well; our military, Supreme Court, Congress, and the Constitution itself. All of these things are "socialist" in that, they deal with the collective as opposed to the individual or private sector.

So what is the Conservative beef with Socialism? Well, it's the ideology itself. It is the false belief that any and all things are better under a socialistic system. Some things are better but some things are not. Many things, particularly regarding our freedom and economy, are better handled through private enterprise, free markets, respectful of individual liberty. Conservatives believe this because history has proven them to be true. Some socialist measures work precisely because free market capitalism enables them to work.

Let's take the fire departments for example. Governments don't just assume the role of providing protection against fires. Communities get together and raise revenue through mutual taxation to fund a fire department. There has to be private sector capitalism happening first, to enable a tax base by which a portion can be used to fund a fire department. If there is no private sector capitalism happening, where does the money come from to pay the firemen or buy equipment?

The same thing can be said of roads, police, schools and snow plows. Without the capitalist engaging in free market trade, there is no tax revenue to fund these things. So a purely socialistic society cannot work because governments have no means of income production. We know this is true because of history, it was attempted under Chairman Mao Zedong in China. He believed that society could share the burden of production for a centralized government who would ensure everyone was cared for adequately without the need for capitalism. The experiment resulted in dismal failure and the deaths of over 50 million people.

What happens is "human nature." Without capitalism, the people who are supposed to be providing the means of production become demotivated. There is no reward for working harder. It becomes the motivational goal to simply do what is required and remain alive. Because there is no capitalistic push or drive, this eventually results in shortfalls and the people discover there is not enough to go around. Meanwhile, those who are in charge of distribution have full access to resources and they tend to look out for number one. Over time, the system devolves into two classes: The Ruling Class Elite and the Peasant Class.

As people, we have needs and wants. A "need" is something that is required, a "want" is something that is desired. They are two different birds. A free market capitalist free enterprise system, which the Conservatives believe in, can provide the financial underpinning for those things which general society needs. This is where "general welfare" comes in. Those things which we can all agree are needed by all, that benefit all of us in society, and we can use tax revenues to collectively pay for and handle without much burden to the individual. Yes, that is socialistic, but there is nothing wrong with it.

The problem is when socialistic ideology spills over from our "needs" to our "wants" and attempts to provide cradle-to-grave entitlement. It's the pollyannish thinking that we can somehow give everyone everything their hearts desire and the wealthy can somehow pay for it all. Since the wealthy obviously have a finite amount of wealth, this road has a dead end at some point. Besides, the wealthy are mostly motivated by capitalism, and when you begin providing everyone with everything their hearts desire, you effectively kill capitalist motivation. Why work hard and earn wealth when everything is being given to you? If your needs have been met and you have no wants, then there is little to motivate you.

Conservatives are Socialist, in that they do believe in certain measures to ensure societal needs are met, but they believe this is better accomplished through free market capitalism, generating economic prosperity and growth, producing capitalist revenue which can be used collectively to handle those needs. It is through the freedom of capitalism that we believe it is possible to have limited socialist systems to cover these needs. Not only do conservatives believe it is better, we believe it is ultimately the only thing that works.
 

M14 Shooter

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First, let's clarify a few things. Socialism as we know it, is an ideology. It is the notion that top-down government control of things is more beneficial to the people than private sector control.
Socialism is where the state owns/control the means of producing and distunuting weath, inclusing, especially, the redistrubution of wealth through the welfare state.

Any inclusion of roads, fire departments, police, military, etc, into that discussion denotes abject ignorance, dishonesty, or both.

Verdict: You have failed.
 
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Boss

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Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Socialism is an economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy.[1][2] "Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, state ownership, citizen ownership of equity, or any combination of these.[3] There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them.[4] They differ in the type of social ownership they advocate, the degree to which they rely on markets or planning, how management is to be organised within productive institutions, and the role of the state in constructing socialism.[5]

Verdict overturned.
 

The2ndAmendment

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So at what point did you relate Conservatives to socialism? Can you write something more concise and "to the point" so we may examine your argument?
Don't hold your breath on that one.
He may be talking about a great portion of the fake conservatives/neocons/RINOS, in which case he is entirely correct.

I've had Neocons nearly assault me in a Dunkin Donuts when I tricked them into admitting that they were the same as Progressives, with their own logic and realization
 

eflatminor

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I've had Neocons nearly assault me in a Dunkin Donuts when I tricked them into admitting that they were the same as Progressives, with their own logic and realization
The big government meddlers are abundant in both parties, that is for sure.
 

Contumacious

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Conservatives are Socialist, in that they do believe in certain measures to ensure societal needs are met, but they believe this is better accomplished through free market capitalism, generating economic prosperity and growth, producing capitalist revenue which can be used collectively to handle those needs. It is through the freedom of capitalism that we believe it is possible to have limited socialist systems to cover these needs. Not only do conservatives believe it is better, we believe it is ultimately the only thing that works.
HUH?

I Have No Idea What You Just Said.

But the majority of "conservatives" are socialists

Conservative Socialism

By Alexander S. Peak

September 24, 2005

The modern Conservative, who is in fact not a Conservative at all, is one that has adopted – on a rhetorical level – perspectives that were classically Liberal (especially in regards to Market Liberalism), but yet has perverted these perspectives into something distinctly authoritarian. The perversion is not uniquely their own, however. Neo-Conservatism adopts an ignorant, self-denied love for New Deal–styled Socialism and increased regulation."

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francoHFW

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Only ignorant, brainwashed ugly Americans you guessed it Pub dupes immediately go to communism as the meaning of socialism. The rest of the world recognizes that today socialism means well -regulated capitalism with a good safety net. Works a helluva lot better than a banana republic, what the greedy idiot rich new bs GOP seems to want...

''We're all socialists now''- Finland's PM when O-Care passed.
 

Contumacious

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Only ignorant, brainwashed ugly Americans you guessed it Pub dupes immediately go to communism as the meaning of socialism. The rest of the world recognizes that today socialism means well -regulated capitalism with a good safety net. Works a helluva lot better than a banana republic, what the greedy idiot rich new bs GOP seems to want...

''We're all socialists now''- Finland's PM when O-Care passed.
And of course You all speak Orwellian doublespeak.

Tyranny is well regulated freedom

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francoHFW

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Socially, just think of all the things conservatives like illegal- pot, gay marriage, hell, sodomy, abortions, birth control etc etc etc You seem to only fight for the freedom to get screwed by the rich, bad health care, expensive college, low salaries, pollution...
 

Contumacious

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If conservatives are socialists, they're really bad, pander to the rich ones...Fact lol.
The Great Conservative Hoax

For my part, I’m hoping that the whole conservative movement will go down in flames with the decline and fall of the Bush administration. The red-state fascists have had their day and instead of liberty, they gave us the most raw and stupid form of imperial big government one can imagine. They have given America a bad name around the world. They have bamboozled millions. They have looted and bankrupted the country. They have killed tens of thousands.

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Jughead

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The only possible way I could see a conservative being a socialist is for that person to be so far right that he eventually merges with the radical left.
 
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Jut because the government pays for something does not make it socialism.
The government doesn't pay for anything, they have no means of earning income. They collect revenue from the people in the form of taxes or tariffs, regulatory fees or fines. That money can then be used to pay for things that collectively benefit all, which is in essence, a socialist concept.

Now some people are misinterpreting what I've said here. I did not say Conservatives are Marxists. The Marxist form of Socialism is largely what Conservatives are opposed to because it doesn't work. This is the idea of wealth redistribution and socialist systems designed to move us toward communism.

Variations of this idea have been tried since the mid 19th century and all have failed. The proponents just repackage the same ideas under different terminology and try it again.

Free market capitalism, on the other hand, has always proven successful. It works. This doesn't mean that no socialist system can ever work. Some certainly do work with the support of a vibrant free market capitalist system. It's how the US managed to have the largest military in the free world.
 

LoneLaugher

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So at what point did you relate Conservatives to socialism? Can you write something more concise and "to the point" so we may examine your argument?
Don't hold your breath on that one.
He may be talking about a great portion of the fake conservatives/neocons/RINOS, in which case he is entirely correct.

I've had Neocons nearly assault me in a Dunkin Donuts when I tricked them into admitting that they were the same as Progressives, with their own logic and realization
Is that right? With their own logic and realization? Whatever that means.

I don't believe you have the stuff to trick anyone. Even a donut crazed neocon.
 

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