Confederate Memorials and Monuments - what history do they represent?

[Yarddog]

I grew up in Maryland - kind of an "in between" state.

I'm curious...what do you make of the reason these monuments were erected - of how they coincided with segrationist movements and such? Was it something you weren't aware of (I wasn't)...?

Like I said - I found the Civil War history fascinating. My father used to take me to the Battle Field sites, and taught me a good bit about it. I'm near both Maryland and Pennsylvania and am frequently coming accross placards commemerating some Civil War event or another. But the monuments in question weren't battle field monuments. That kind of surprised me.

Do you think it might be time to retire some of these symbols to institutions of history, like Museums? I find it hard to imagine that black citizens living in those states could ever feel totally included with those symbols.

Serious thoughts - not trolling or anything.

In Georgia some wanted the Confederate flag removed from a Civil War Museum. Curator closed the museum.

I see no issue with it being in the museums - that is the appropriate place imo.

I have no connection whatsoever to those Confederate statues, having lived in California my whole life, but I'm opposed to bringing them all down.

First of all, we are told Its just about these statues and that the people they represent were bad people."Why do you want to support generals who fought for slavery?" Well, IF IT REALLY WAS, just about these statues it would be one thing, but its really more about that some of us can see this is just a continuation of an ongoing effort to discredit the United States. Just look at people burning the US flag, saying the national anthem is racist, Trying to discredit the founders of the country. And of course next, would be any documents that were written by the founders of the country. Confederate Generals are only a soft target. It's the easy place to start, but to me I just kind of see it as all the same mindset. The mindset of looking for a grievance, not really wanting to get along or compromise, not wanting to be thankful for living in a place full of opportunity but rather wanting to tear someone else down in an effort to get some sort of social justice, which I really see as a never ending thing.

Hmmmm the statues represent people who fought against the United States.

They were acting to 'discredit' the United States when they declared that the United States was acting against them.

When was Christopher Columbus fighting against the United States? Catholic Saints? Abraham Lincoln? Teddy Roosevelt? All statues recently attacked by and vandalized by the left.

You left wingers love to lie.

You assholes don't even really care about the statues...it's just a reason to destroy stuff in a faux PC protest.

yeah, exactly. Like I said. It's not really about the statues, its about the precidence it sets, and then what plays out next.
It really does add up to the name they give for themselves, Progressive. It would be just nice if they could ever admit what the end game is while they are just sticking the foot in the door.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Confederate statues were only the beginning. The democrats intend to go full isis.

 

[Syriusly]

Confederate statues were only the beginning. The democrats intend to go full isis.

LOL

But you love ISIS- when they are killing gays.

 

[Syriusly]

I grew up in Maryland - kind of an "in between" state.

I'm curious...what do you make of the reason these monuments were erected - of how they coincided with segrationist movements and such? Was it something you weren't aware of (I wasn't)...?

Like I said - I found the Civil War history fascinating. My father used to take me to the Battle Field sites, and taught me a good bit about it. I'm near both Maryland and Pennsylvania and am frequently coming accross placards commemerating some Civil War event or another. But the monuments in question weren't battle field monuments. That kind of surprised me.

Do you think it might be time to retire some of these symbols to institutions of history, like Museums? I find it hard to imagine that black citizens living in those states could ever feel totally included with those symbols.

Serious thoughts - not trolling or anything.

In Georgia some wanted the Confederate flag removed from a Civil War Museum. Curator closed the museum.

I see no issue with it being in the museums - that is the appropriate place imo.

I have no connection whatsoever to those Confederate statues, having lived in California my whole life, but I'm opposed to bringing them all down.

First of all, we are told Its just about these statues and that the people they represent were bad people."Why do you want to support generals who fought for slavery?" Well, IF IT REALLY WAS, just about these statues it would be one thing, but its really more about that some of us can see this is just a continuation of an ongoing effort to discredit the United States. Just look at people burning the US flag, saying the national anthem is racist, Trying to discredit the founders of the country. And of course next, would be any documents that were written by the founders of the country. Confederate Generals are only a soft target. It's the easy place to start, but to me I just kind of see it as all the same mindset. The mindset of looking for a grievance, not really wanting to get along or compromise, not wanting to be thankful for living in a place full of opportunity but rather wanting to tear someone else down in an effort to get some sort of social justice, which I really see as a never ending thing.

Hmmmm the statues represent people who fought against the United States.

They were acting to 'discredit' the United States when they declared that the United States was acting against them.

Just IMAGINE how peaceful we could be right now if the Left didnt have to continually create a Crisis. Now we are all in crisis.

Yep- because of course- everything was completely peaceful in the United States until the "Left" started taking down statues......

LOL

 

[Asclepias]

My initial thought was - they're a legacy of the civil war, put up by the losing side...and no "big deal" beyond that history. But I was wrong.

Removing historical monuments is always a "slippery slope", but so is erecting those monuments. For example, in Russia - the many monuments to Stalin (torn down when communism fell) or in Iraq, the many monuments to Sadaam (torn down too).

There IS something similar in the Confederate Monuments, compared to Stalin or Hussein or others. That is WHY they were erected.

Most were erected between the 1890's and 1920's - more then 30 years after the Civil War ended. They coincided with the rise in legislation essentially reinstalling slavery through a set of laws that segregated black people from white people, prevented them from exercising their right to vote, and saw a huge increase in lynchings and the reappearance of the Confederate Flag.

So what do these things REALLY represent? There has been a sustained movement to sanitize the Confederacy - to severe it from slavery and portray it as little more than a "state's rights" conflict. But you can't do that - it's inseperable from the slavery issue, as is evident by what occurred in the south AFTER the war's end.

So what are we seeking to "preserve" by keeping both that flag and those monuments on public spaces? These aren't battlefield monuments...they are monuments erected all over the country outside of historical sites. I used to be a huge Civil War buff as a kid...and I value and love history - but THIS part of the history, I was oblivious of. SHOULD we support it, in our public spaces, or retire it to Museums where it might be more fitting? This historian makes some good points.

Like The Flag, Confederate Monuments Have Been 'Severely Tainted'

JAMES COBB: Well, the great bulk of them were erected between roughly 1890 and 1920. But every time there was a sort of a racial flare up, later on, there would be a more modest surge in erecting monuments in the same way that Confederate flags started going on. State flags are being flown atop state capitals, but the 1890-1920 period is really, I think, critical because that period also saw the rise of legally mandated racial segregation and disfranchisement of black Southerners.

And in tune with that, the campaigns for passage of these segregation, disenfranchising laws involved a tremendous amount of horrific racial scapegoating. So that same period saw roughly 2,000 lynchings of black Americans. And so the thing I think people miss because it's so easy to jump on the clear connection between these monuments and slavery is that they also were sort of like construction materials in an effort to rebuild slavery.​

and

COBB: Well, I think for generations, white Southerners had maintained, despite the presence of the flag at all of these racial atrocities, had maintained that it was possible to separate heritage and hate. And I think the slaying in Charleston pretty much shattered what was left of that mythology. And there were a number of cases, a number of states, where Confederate flags were furled almost, you know, within a matter of days of that event. The next target was going to be monuments. But compared to a flag, the monuments are a bit less emotive. And they were seen like as on the second line of defense as far as the whole cult of the lost cause and the refusal to accept the idea that both the flag and the monuments were tied to slavery.


Monuments were simply less closely associated in the minds of white Southerners, in particular, with anything related directly to racial oppression. It was the flag that had been waved at the Klan rallies. You know, it's easier to hoist a flag than a bust of Stonewall Jackson. It had the much stronger visual association with racial oppression or racist hate groups than monuments did.​

and

COBB: Well, as a historian, I'll confess to a certain nervousness about sanitizing the historical landscape. But I think what we're looking at here is that these monuments, just like the flag, have been sort of seized on. And they've been so severely tainted. I think the best way to look at them upon removing them - and I think they do have to be removed from public spaces.


But I think the best way to look at them is that they're not being preserved in a museum, which is where I think they should go as a monument, but really, as an artifact because their connection with, you know, the effort to practically reinstitute slavery after the Civil War gives them an extra layer of complexity that I think most people have not been exposed to. Whereas they - in a public spot, I think they can only be divisive and a source of discord and conflict.​

 

[Syriusly]

I grew up in Maryland - kind of an "in between" state.

I'm curious...what do you make of the reason these monuments were erected - of how they coincided with segrationist movements and such? Was it something you weren't aware of (I wasn't)...?

Like I said - I found the Civil War history fascinating. My father used to take me to the Battle Field sites, and taught me a good bit about it. I'm near both Maryland and Pennsylvania and am frequently coming accross placards commemerating some Civil War event or another. But the monuments in question weren't battle field monuments. That kind of surprised me.

Do you think it might be time to retire some of these symbols to institutions of history, like Museums? I find it hard to imagine that black citizens living in those states could ever feel totally included with those symbols.

Serious thoughts - not trolling or anything.

In Georgia some wanted the Confederate flag removed from a Civil War Museum. Curator closed the museum.

I see no issue with it being in the museums - that is the appropriate place imo.

I have no connection whatsoever to those Confederate statues, having lived in California my whole life, but I'm opposed to bringing them all down.

First of all, we are told Its just about these statues and that the people they represent were bad people."Why do you want to support generals who fought for slavery?" Well, IF IT REALLY WAS, just about these statues it would be one thing, but its really more about that some of us can see this is just a continuation of an ongoing effort to discredit the United States. Just look at people burning the US flag, saying the national anthem is racist, Trying to discredit the founders of the country. And of course next, would be any documents that were written by the founders of the country. Confederate Generals are only a soft target. It's the easy place to start, but to me I just kind of see it as all the same mindset. The mindset of looking for a grievance, not really wanting to get along or compromise, not wanting to be thankful for living in a place full of opportunity but rather wanting to tear someone else down in an effort to get some sort of social justice, which I really see as a never ending thing.

Hmmmm the statues represent people who fought against the United States.

They were acting to 'discredit' the United States when they declared that the United States was acting against them.

When was Christopher Columbus fighting against the United States? Catholic Saints? Abraham Lincoln? Teddy Roosevelt? All statues recently attacked and vandalized by the left..

Last I checked Christopher Columbus was not a Confederate- nor do I recall Teddy Roosevelt being a Confederate- and Confederates are whom I was speaking.

Statues unfortunately get vandalized all the time- and I am against the vandalization of any statues- by anyone.

How about you?

 

[Syriusly]

I grew up in Maryland - kind of an "in between" state.

I'm curious...what do you make of the reason these monuments were erected - of how they coincided with segrationist movements and such? Was it something you weren't aware of (I wasn't)...?

Like I said - I found the Civil War history fascinating. My father used to take me to the Battle Field sites, and taught me a good bit about it. I'm near both Maryland and Pennsylvania and am frequently coming accross placards commemerating some Civil War event or another. But the monuments in question weren't battle field monuments. That kind of surprised me.

Do you think it might be time to retire some of these symbols to institutions of history, like Museums? I find it hard to imagine that black citizens living in those states could ever feel totally included with those symbols.

Serious thoughts - not trolling or anything.

In Georgia some wanted the Confederate flag removed from a Civil War Museum. Curator closed the museum.

I see no issue with it being in the museums - that is the appropriate place imo.

I have no connection whatsoever to those Confederate statues, having lived in California my whole life, but I'm opposed to bringing them all down.

First of all, we are told Its just about these statues and that the people they represent were bad people."Why do you want to support generals who fought for slavery?" Well, IF IT REALLY WAS, just about these statues it would be one thing, but its really more about that some of us can see this is just a continuation of an ongoing effort to discredit the United States. Just look at people burning the US flag, saying the national anthem is racist, Trying to discredit the founders of the country. And of course next, would be any documents that were written by the founders of the country. Confederate Generals are only a soft target. It's the easy place to start, but to me I just kind of see it as all the same mindset. The mindset of looking for a grievance, not really wanting to get along or compromise, not wanting to be thankful for living in a place full of opportunity but rather wanting to tear someone else down in an effort to get some sort of social justice, which I really see as a never ending thing.

Hmmmm the statues represent people who fought against the United States.

They were acting to 'discredit' the United States when they declared that the United States was acting against them.

You left wingers love to lie..

Feel free to post my lie.

Because at the moment it appears you 'love to lie'......

 

[Syriusly]

I grew up in Maryland - kind of an "in between" state.

I'm curious...what do you make of the reason these monuments were erected - of how they coincided with segrationist movements and such? Was it something you weren't aware of (I wasn't)...?

Like I said - I found the Civil War history fascinating. My father used to take me to the Battle Field sites, and taught me a good bit about it. I'm near both Maryland and Pennsylvania and am frequently coming accross placards commemerating some Civil War event or another. But the monuments in question weren't battle field monuments. That kind of surprised me.

Do you think it might be time to retire some of these symbols to institutions of history, like Museums? I find it hard to imagine that black citizens living in those states could ever feel totally included with those symbols.

Serious thoughts - not trolling or anything.

In Georgia some wanted the Confederate flag removed from a Civil War Museum. Curator closed the museum.

I see no issue with it being in the museums - that is the appropriate place imo.

I have no connection whatsoever to those Confederate statues, having lived in California my whole life, but I'm opposed to bringing them all down.

First of all, we are told Its just about these statues and that the people they represent were bad people."Why do you want to support generals who fought for slavery?" Well, IF IT REALLY WAS, just about these statues it would be one thing, but its really more about that some of us can see this is just a continuation of an ongoing effort to discredit the United States. Just look at people burning the US flag, saying the national anthem is racist, Trying to discredit the founders of the country. And of course next, would be any documents that were written by the founders of the country. Confederate Generals are only a soft target. It's the easy place to start, but to me I just kind of see it as all the same mindset. The mindset of looking for a grievance, not really wanting to get along or compromise, not wanting to be thankful for living in a place full of opportunity but rather wanting to tear someone else down in an effort to get some sort of social justice, which I really see as a never ending thing.

Hmmmm the statues represent people who fought against the United States.

They were acting to 'discredit' the United States when they declared that the United States was acting against them.

You assholes don't even really care about the statues...it's just a reason to destroy stuff in a faux PC protest.

And when have I said that any statues or anything else should be vandalized to destroyed?

Oh right- I haven't.

Just you lying again.

 

[Asclepias]

I grew up in the deep South, and the Confederacy was a proud part of our legacy, UNTIL all things confederate were co-opted to stand for segregation. For example, as soon as the Supreme Court ruled in Brown Vs. Board of Education, my home state of Georgia put the stars and bars on to the Georgia flag in 1956:

It didn't stop there, of course, it is no longer the symbol of the confederacy. It is the tool of redneck racists.

I grew up in Maryland - kind of an "in between" state.

I'm curious...what do you make of the reason these monuments were erected - of how they coincided with segrationist movements and such? Was it something you weren't aware of (I wasn't)...?

Like I said - I found the Civil War history fascinating. My father used to take me to the Battle Field sites, and taught me a good bit about it. I'm near both Maryland and Pennsylvania and am frequently coming accross placards commemerating some Civil War event or another. But the monuments in question weren't battle field monuments. That kind of surprised me.

Do you think it might be time to retire some of these symbols to institutions of history, like Museums? I find it hard to imagine that black citizens living in those states could ever feel totally included with those symbols.

Serious thoughts - not trolling or anything.

The guy who carved Mt. Rushmore was fired, and hit upon a sure fire way to stay working for the rest of his life, by proposing the carving on Stone mountain. It was a huge success, because the old South was digging in their heels big time with Jim Crow laws, designed to keep blacks subservient forever. The racial world depicted in "To Kill a Mockingbird" was real. It became much worse, during the depression, because now blacks were entering factories and leaving the fields. That made them an economic threat to the white man. There really was a sign at a county line in Georgia reading, "N***R, don't let the sun go down", implying that he was in danger of being lynched in that county after sunset. I saw it. In the 1950's, if a black man did not shift his gaze to the sidewalk in front of him, when you passed him, it was considered an "uppity" black, looking for trouble. Outside of Atlanta, there was an affluent suburb down Ponce de Leon Avenue which got the first electrified trolleys in the city so that the affluent households there could fill their houses with black servants, who would all be back to the other side of town by trolley when it got dark. I could go on, and on, but the racism I saw growing up was almost as bad of the worst that South Africa ever had.

You pretty much nailed it. After centuries of white male affirmative action they had competition that actually knew the job better than them and worked at a lower rate..

 

[Bush92]

Tearing them down represents a dystopian Orwellian world like North Korea. They represent the debate we have had in in this nation since 1787..,states rights vs. intrusive federal government.

 

[Asclepias]

I grew up in Maryland - kind of an "in between" state..

I've lived in Maryland for nearly 50 years.
Maryland was not 'in between'. It was a southern state coopted by the north because of its proximity to DC.
The fascist academics on the U of MD campus removed the state song's melody from the campus chapel's clock chimes because some democrat fascist pointed out that the lyrics, written in 1847 or so, made reference to the 'tyranny of the north'.
Marylanders during the Civil War used the red and white Crossland portion of the state flag as their confederate battle flag.
If Maryland Democrat fascists want to be taken seriously then they need to be consistent and remove all vestiges of red and white from the campus and its sports teams, too. Good luck with that. Too much money at risk for the billion dollar sports industry there that Curley Byrd generated in the 1940's. Oh, BTW, the Democrat Nazis took Byrd's name off of the football stadium a couple of years back because he favored 'separate but equal' back in the 1950's. This was in spite of the tons of money he directed towards Maryland's black universities.

Calling the Confederacy what it is/was does not include denying what its VP explicitly described as its "cornerstone."

You anti-whites always quote the Vice President of the Confederacy. Why not the President? or the Secretary of State, who, to "preserve the Confederacy as military defeat made its situation increasingly desperate, he advocated freeing and arming the slaves, but his proposals were not accepted until it was too late."

Do you have a link to this? Never heard of anyone from the confederacy wanting to free the enslaved which they stated was the foundation of their repugnant society.

 

[Bush92]

I grew up in the deep South, and the Confederacy was a proud part of our legacy, UNTIL all things confederate were co-opted to stand for segregation. For example, as soon as the Supreme Court ruled in Brown Vs. Board of Education, my home state of Georgia put the stars and bars on to the Georgia flag in 1956:

It didn't stop there, of course, it is no longer the symbol of the confederacy. It is the tool of redneck racists.

I grew up in Maryland - kind of an "in between" state.

I'm curious...what do you make of the reason these monuments were erected - of how they coincided with segrationist movements and such? Was it something you weren't aware of (I wasn't)...?

Like I said - I found the Civil War history fascinating. My father used to take me to the Battle Field sites, and taught me a good bit about it. I'm near both Maryland and Pennsylvania and am frequently coming accross placards commemerating some Civil War event or another. But the monuments in question weren't battle field monuments. That kind of surprised me.

Do you think it might be time to retire some of these symbols to institutions of history, like Museums? I find it hard to imagine that black citizens living in those states could ever feel totally included with those symbols.

Serious thoughts - not trolling or anything.

The guy who carved Mt. Rushmore was fired, and hit upon a sure fire way to stay working for the rest of his life, by proposing the carving on Stone mountain. It was a huge success, because the old South was digging in their heels big time with Jim Crow laws, designed to keep blacks subservient forever. The racial world depicted in "To Kill a Mockingbird" was real. It became much worse, during the depression, because now blacks were entering factories and leaving the fields. That made them an economic threat to the white man. There really was a sign at a county line in Georgia reading, "N***R, don't let the sun go down", implying that he was in danger of being lynched in that county after sunset. I saw it. In the 1950's, if a black man did not shift his gaze to the sidewalk in front of him, when you passed him, it was considered an "uppity" black, looking for trouble. Outside of Atlanta, there was an affluent suburb down Ponce de Leon Avenue which got the first electrified trolleys in the city so that the affluent households there could fill their houses with black servants, who would all be back to the other side of town by trolley when it got dark. I could go on, and on, but the racism I saw growing up was almost as bad of the worst that South Africa ever had.

You pretty much nailed it. After centuries of white male affirmative action they had competition that actually knew the job better than them and worked at a lower rate..

So they should have been unemployed?

 

[Asclepias]

I grew up in Maryland - kind of an "in between" state.

I'm curious...what do you make of the reason these monuments were erected - of how they coincided with segrationist movements and such? Was it something you weren't aware of (I wasn't)...?

Like I said - I found the Civil War history fascinating. My father used to take me to the Battle Field sites, and taught me a good bit about it. I'm near both Maryland and Pennsylvania and am frequently coming accross placards commemerating some Civil War event or another. But the monuments in question weren't battle field monuments. That kind of surprised me.

Do you think it might be time to retire some of these symbols to institutions of history, like Museums? I find it hard to imagine that black citizens living in those states could ever feel totally included with those symbols.

Serious thoughts - not trolling or anything.

In Georgia some wanted the Confederate flag removed from a Civil War Museum. Curator closed the museum.

I see no issue with it being in the museums - that is the appropriate place imo.

I have no connection whatsoever to those Confederate statues, having lived in California my whole life, but I'm opposed to bringing them all down.

First of all, we are told Its just about these statues and that the people they represent were bad people."Why do you want to support generals who fought for slavery?" Well, IF IT REALLY WAS, just about these statues it would be one thing, but its really more about that some of us can see this is just a continuation of an ongoing effort to discredit the United States. Just look at people burning the US flag, saying the national anthem is racist, Trying to discredit the founders of the country. And of course next, would be any documents that were written by the founders of the country. Confederate Generals are only a soft target. It's the easy place to start, but to me I just kind of see it as all the same mindset. The mindset of looking for a grievance, not really wanting to get along or compromise, not wanting to be thankful for living in a place full of opportunity but rather wanting to tear someone else down in an effort to get some sort of social justice, which I really see as a never ending thing.

Hmmmm the statues represent people who fought against the United States.

They were acting to 'discredit' the United States when they declared that the United States was acting against them.

When was Christopher Columbus fighting against the United States? Catholic Saints? Abraham Lincoln? Teddy Roosevelt? All statues recently attacked and vandalized by the left.

You left wingers love to lie.

You assholes don't even really care about the statues...it's just a reason to destroy stuff in a faux PC protest.

Columbus was pedophile, murderer, and sociopath. Why is there a day named after him?

 

[Asclepias]

I grew up in the deep South, and the Confederacy was a proud part of our legacy, UNTIL all things confederate were co-opted to stand for segregation. For example, as soon as the Supreme Court ruled in Brown Vs. Board of Education, my home state of Georgia put the stars and bars on to the Georgia flag in 1956:

It didn't stop there, of course, it is no longer the symbol of the confederacy. It is the tool of redneck racists.

I grew up in Maryland - kind of an "in between" state.

I'm curious...what do you make of the reason these monuments were erected - of how they coincided with segrationist movements and such? Was it something you weren't aware of (I wasn't)...?

Like I said - I found the Civil War history fascinating. My father used to take me to the Battle Field sites, and taught me a good bit about it. I'm near both Maryland and Pennsylvania and am frequently coming accross placards commemerating some Civil War event or another. But the monuments in question weren't battle field monuments. That kind of surprised me.

Do you think it might be time to retire some of these symbols to institutions of history, like Museums? I find it hard to imagine that black citizens living in those states could ever feel totally included with those symbols.

Serious thoughts - not trolling or anything.

The guy who carved Mt. Rushmore was fired, and hit upon a sure fire way to stay working for the rest of his life, by proposing the carving on Stone mountain. It was a huge success, because the old South was digging in their heels big time with Jim Crow laws, designed to keep blacks subservient forever. The racial world depicted in "To Kill a Mockingbird" was real. It became much worse, during the depression, because now blacks were entering factories and leaving the fields. That made them an economic threat to the white man. There really was a sign at a county line in Georgia reading, "N***R, don't let the sun go down", implying that he was in danger of being lynched in that county after sunset. I saw it. In the 1950's, if a black man did not shift his gaze to the sidewalk in front of him, when you passed him, it was considered an "uppity" black, looking for trouble. Outside of Atlanta, there was an affluent suburb down Ponce de Leon Avenue which got the first electrified trolleys in the city so that the affluent households there could fill their houses with black servants, who would all be back to the other side of town by trolley when it got dark. I could go on, and on, but the racism I saw growing up was almost as bad of the worst that South Africa ever had.

You pretty much nailed it. After centuries of white male affirmative action they had competition that actually knew the job better than them and worked at a lower rate..

So they should have been unemployed?

Why not? We had to deal with it when whites hired other whites even though the Blacks knew the job better.

 

[Asclepias]

Tearing them down represents a dystopian Orwellian world like North Korea. They represent the debate we have had in in this nation since 1787..,states rights vs. intrusive federal government.

Its not that serious. Who in their right minds erects statues to losers, traitors, and all around rejects?

 

[Zoom-boing]

They represent American history. The good, the bad, the ugly.

Removing them the way they are doing is stupid. Let each county vote on what they want to do. Caving to fascist thugs because they are bullying people into it is wrong and sets a dangerous example.

Are people just now figuring out that American history includes slaves? Cause that's how it seems. Why didn't they call for the removal of these statues years ago?

 

[Asclepias]

They represent American history. The good, the bad, the ugly.

Removing them the way they are doing is stupid. Let each county vote on what they want to do. Caving to fascist thugs because they are bullying people into it is wrong and sets a dangerous example.

Are people just now figuring out that American history includes slaves? Cause that's how it seems. Why didn't they call for the removal of these statues years ago?

They did call for their removal. Where have you been?

If they represent american history then put them in a museum where they belong.

 

[Bush92]

I grew up in the deep South, and the Confederacy was a proud part of our legacy, UNTIL all things confederate were co-opted to stand for segregation. For example, as soon as the Supreme Court ruled in Brown Vs. Board of Education, my home state of Georgia put the stars and bars on to the Georgia flag in 1956:

It didn't stop there, of course, it is no longer the symbol of the confederacy. It is the tool of redneck racists.

I grew up in Maryland - kind of an "in between" state.

I'm curious...what do you make of the reason these monuments were erected - of how they coincided with segrationist movements and such? Was it something you weren't aware of (I wasn't)...?

Like I said - I found the Civil War history fascinating. My father used to take me to the Battle Field sites, and taught me a good bit about it. I'm near both Maryland and Pennsylvania and am frequently coming accross placards commemerating some Civil War event or another. But the monuments in question weren't battle field monuments. That kind of surprised me.

Do you think it might be time to retire some of these symbols to institutions of history, like Museums? I find it hard to imagine that black citizens living in those states could ever feel totally included with those symbols.

Serious thoughts - not trolling or anything.

The guy who carved Mt. Rushmore was fired, and hit upon a sure fire way to stay working for the rest of his life, by proposing the carving on Stone mountain. It was a huge success, because the old South was digging in their heels big time with Jim Crow laws, designed to keep blacks subservient forever. The racial world depicted in "To Kill a Mockingbird" was real. It became much worse, during the depression, because now blacks were entering factories and leaving the fields. That made them an economic threat to the white man. There really was a sign at a county line in Georgia reading, "N***R, don't let the sun go down", implying that he was in danger of being lynched in that county after sunset. I saw it. In the 1950's, if a black man did not shift his gaze to the sidewalk in front of him, when you passed him, it was considered an "uppity" black, looking for trouble. Outside of Atlanta, there was an affluent suburb down Ponce de Leon Avenue which got the first electrified trolleys in the city so that the affluent households there could fill their houses with black servants, who would all be back to the other side of town by trolley when it got dark. I could go on, and on, but the racism I saw growing up was almost as bad of the worst that South Africa ever had.

You pretty much nailed it. After centuries of white male affirmative action they had competition that actually knew the job better than them and worked at a lower rate..

So they should have been unemployed?

Why not? We had to deal with it when whites hired other whites even though the Blacks knew the job better.

What jobs were that? Please give me an example of the African architecture, metal smithing, or engineering that they brought from Africa that was anywhere on par with the Enlightenment and Renaissance ideas brought to the New World by European's?

 

[Asclepias]

I grew up in Maryland - kind of an "in between" state.

I'm curious...what do you make of the reason these monuments were erected - of how they coincided with segrationist movements and such? Was it something you weren't aware of (I wasn't)...?

Like I said - I found the Civil War history fascinating. My father used to take me to the Battle Field sites, and taught me a good bit about it. I'm near both Maryland and Pennsylvania and am frequently coming accross placards commemerating some Civil War event or another. But the monuments in question weren't battle field monuments. That kind of surprised me.

Do you think it might be time to retire some of these symbols to institutions of history, like Museums? I find it hard to imagine that black citizens living in those states could ever feel totally included with those symbols.

Serious thoughts - not trolling or anything.

The guy who carved Mt. Rushmore was fired, and hit upon a sure fire way to stay working for the rest of his life, by proposing the carving on Stone mountain. It was a huge success, because the old South was digging in their heels big time with Jim Crow laws, designed to keep blacks subservient forever. The racial world depicted in "To Kill a Mockingbird" was real. It became much worse, during the depression, because now blacks were entering factories and leaving the fields. That made them an economic threat to the white man. There really was a sign at a county line in Georgia reading, "N***R, don't let the sun go down", implying that he was in danger of being lynched in that county after sunset. I saw it. In the 1950's, if a black man did not shift his gaze to the sidewalk in front of him, when you passed him, it was considered an "uppity" black, looking for trouble. Outside of Atlanta, there was an affluent suburb down Ponce de Leon Avenue which got the first electrified trolleys in the city so that the affluent households there could fill their houses with black servants, who would all be back to the other side of town by trolley when it got dark. I could go on, and on, but the racism I saw growing up was almost as bad of the worst that South Africa ever had.

You pretty much nailed it. After centuries of white male affirmative action they had competition that actually knew the job better than them and worked at a lower rate..

So they should have been unemployed?

Why not? We had to deal with it when whites hired other whites even though the Blacks knew the job better.

What jobs were that? Please give me an example of the African architecture, metal smithing, or engineering that they brought from Africa that was anywhere on par with the Enlightenment and Renaissance ideas brought to the New World by European's?

That post shows your abject lack of education. Blacks brought you out of the Dark Ages and taught you whites architecture reading, science etc. You do realize carbonized steel was invented in Africa several centuries before europe figured it out. My guess is that Africans taught them.

 

[Bush92]

They represent American history. The good, the bad, the ugly.

Removing them the way they are doing is stupid. Let each county vote on what they want to do. Caving to fascist thugs because they are bullying people into it is wrong and sets a dangerous example.

Are people just now figuring out that American history includes slaves? Cause that's how it seems. Why didn't they call for the removal of these statues years ago?

They did call for their removal. Where have you been?

If they represent american history then put them in a museum where they belong.

The communist have for years.