College: Cost too much?

[psikeyhackr]

The reason college is so expensive is that the sheep have fallen for the ," Everyone needs a college degree" advertising scam.

That's it but then we have all of these DUMMIES with college degrees.

So what has stopped us from creating a National Recommended Reading List so we can get knowledge without college? Plenty of these people with degrees are producing lots of crappy books.

General Semantics from the 1930s has become Neuro Linguistic Programming.

Centigrade has become Celsius.

Playing games with words is not increasing knowledge. But these bullsh# word games helps to confuse people and makes pseudo-intellectuals appear knowledgeable. Now the cheap computers and the Internet make the production and distribution of words, be they important or bullsh#, extremely easy. So if kids have to wade thru more BS because of technology is that a good thing? But is it the fault of the technology?

So we need to short circuit the people trying to screw us with the technology.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dg96tefnEU]SF & von Neumann machine basics - YouTube[/ame]

psik

 

[kwc57]

Would tuitions be that high without the salaries professors demand and their unions obtain? If it wasn't necessary to have expensive state of the art equipment would that affect tuition.

The college kids want, they just don't want to pay and since slavery is illegal, we can't force the faculty or staff to work for less.

The big problem for these grads isn't so much that student loans are so high, it's that they can't find a job once they graduate. There is nothing worse than graduating college with a worthless degree and can't find someone to pay you for what you should never have learned in the first place.

Why are kids getting worthless degrees? Where are their parents to counsel them? My son has an engineering major that is only offered in two universities in the US. There are only 250 students in his program at his school. Corporations court these kids and have jobs waiting for them when they graduate. Last year, just one corporation hired 50 graudates. My neice is working on her phd in medieval literature. I'm not sure what kind of employment opportunities she'll after 8 years of higher education.

 

[Si modo]

We will be paying for two next year. They have been offered no assistance because of our income. That's ok. We've saved since they were born.

What's not ok is the waste and corruption that goes on at these schools and the GD nickle and diming for extra fees, textbooks, health insurance, etc. What's not ok is using tuition and taxpayer money to pay for foreign students to attend for free. What's not ok is paying football coaches $2M a year.

And what really gets my goat is FERPA. If I am putting out $40K a year, I should have the right to monitor my investment. If they want to treat students as independent adults, then use THEIR friggin income to calculate the bill.

From the faculty side, FERPA is golden.

With so many helicopter parents out there not allowing their young adults to actually grow the hell up and learn personal accountability, they call professors to rant and rave about them being so awful to their 'kid' by failing them on a test they deserved to fail.

THAT'S where FERPA is golden. You politely say, "I understand your concern, but federal law prohibits me from continuing this discussion with you. Have a nice day. Good bye."

Never was my job to deal with helicopter parents.

From parents' side of the coin concerning investment, that is absolutely valid.

 

[Wry Catcher]

The reason college is so expensive is that the sheep have fallen for the ," Everyone needs a college degree" advertising scam.

That's true. Not everyone needs a four year degree but everyone with the necessary ability needs to be able to read, comprehend, write (keyboard); compute and think. High school diplomas do not even prepare many students to read; and many college graduates can't write a proper sentence.

Today 'college mills' are putting out graduates with diplomas like puppy mills put out puppies with 'papers'; the product may look good but it is generally flawed. College mills promise employment, mostly this is little more than a marketing scheme.

Our entire theory of education needs to be tested and perfected; that shouldn't be too hard since we have decades of failure as a starting point. If a boy or girl can't stay focused in class, is disinterested and not motivated the first effort ought to be to find out why. IEP's focus on 'learing disabilites' rather than learning styles. Some kids can't read the instructions on how to remove and repair a transmission but can watch someone do so one time and be able to replicate the process (I went to HS with such a kid, saved me lots of $$$ when I dropped my transmission in my first car, '51 Plymouth. He replaced the clutch too).

 

[Si modo]

With respect to tuition costs, academia created this all on their own by bowing to ideals of socialistic utopias.

It started about 20-25 years ago with pressure from the public that admissions were not fair (waaahwaaahwhaah). That standardized tests weren't fair (life isn't fair and that's just a reality). That colleges and universities are elite organizations. Blablablablabla.

They never wanted to hear that admissions were a hell of a lot more complex than what they thought and no one performance or condition for admission automatically DQed an applicant.

Then there were many who bitched that a college education is a right not a privilege.

On and on and on.

Then, federal grants in education (from the Dept of Ed, mostly) became available to those universities who went out on a limb and lowered their acceptance standards to accept applicants where all indicators lead to poor performance at the college level - the great higher education experiment.

OK, I can buy that. Let's see how that goes. Admissions skyrocketed and universities got sweet federal grant bank.

To handle the increased volume, universities had to build more - halls, residence halls (now the trend is to contract that out to apartment managers - another clusterfuck). Who pays for that construction? You guessed - tuition.

Then, in the meantime, the 'great higher education experiment' is never really allowed to finish. Now, all those students who are part of the 'great experiment' are failing out. Miserably failing out. Because of the great experiment, those young adults just wasted one or two years of their life doing something the professionals (the university) let them believe they could do.

So, how to deal with this problem. Of course, the Dept of Ed can't allow this failure to be obvious! So, a new problem is identified by the Dept of Ed - retention of freshmen and sophomores is the new problem (duh, given the previous experiment led to that). So, now federal grants are offered in the "education field" (that's a racket in itself) to develop programs that address retention of lower-classmen.

And, the universities go after those federal bucks with a fervor. Pretty and verbose proposals are written with new (really, recycled) education theories and programs and they get MORE federal grants. All the while the universities know exactly what they are going to do - dumb down the education. And, they did - at almost ALL universities there is serious grade deflation - from Harvard to state schools known for being a party school.

And, as long as they keep those retention rates up for the lower class-men, they get their grants renewed. All the while, those original grants for admission of students who shouldn't be admitted keeps the flow of more and more students in.

Oh, and as the grants usually apply to retention of lower-classmen flunking out, dumb down the 100 and 200 level classes and keep the grant money flowing in. THEN shock the young adults in their 300 and 400 level courses with REAL college-level work. THEN they fail out. Now the students have wasted even more of their lives. (You guessed it, new grants for retention all four years.)

Now, the universities need even MORE buildings. So, they build them. Who is paying for them? The students with tuition.

And, the results of this are that that bachelor degree gets these young adults much less than it did before. That bachelors degree doesn't mean what it once did to employers because the supply of college educated candidates is much more than before AND the college degree is not as high quality as it once was.

University administrators have a joke among them - the number of education grants an institution has is directly proportional to the number of construction cranes they have.



Anyway, that is it in a simplified nutshell - why tuition is a mess. The blame can be spread among so many - government, university administrations selling out educational and academic integrity for federal dollars (none of this would have happened if they had not sold out), and the complaining public who somehow thinks everybody NEEDS to be equal, everyone CAN do college (now, everyone really can, but thy pay for it when looking for a job because it means so little).

 

[Oddball]

Where are the liberoidals howling about PRICE GOUGING!!

?????

Beuller?

 

[waltky]

Spur the economy - forgive student loans...

Educated Liberals Say Forgiveness of Student Loans Would Stimulate Economy
October 18, 2011 - A liberal activist group is circulating an online petition calling for forgiveness of student loan debt. That would do more to stimulate the economy than giving tax cuts to billionaires and big corporations, said MoveOn.org.

"With the stroke of the President's pen, millions of Americans would suddenly have hundreds, or in some cases, thousands of extra dollars in their pockets each and every month to spend on ailing sectors of the economy," the petition says. The way supporters see it, forgiving student loan debt would boost consumer spending, business would start hiring, jobs would be created, and "a new era of innovation, entrepreneurship, and prosperity will be ushered in for all."

Forgiveness of student loans is among the demands of the Occupy Wall Street protest movement, but the suggestion is not new. Two years ago, shortly after President Obama signed his economic stimulus package, a liberal activist proposed forgiveness of student debt instead, and he set up a website to spread the word. The effort has at least one supporter in Congress: Rep. Hansen Clarke (D-Mich.) has introduced a resolution seeking student loan forgiveness as a means of economic stimulus.

The petition calling on Congress to pass a bill forgiving student loans had around 564,000 signatures as of early Tuesday morning. "The future economic success of this country is wholly dependent upon a well-educated, prosperous middle class," the petition says. "Instead of saddling entire generations with debt from which there is no escape, let's empower the American people to grow this economy on their own." The petitioners call it a “trickle-up” approach to stimulating the economy.

Source

 

[kwc57]

Spur the economy - forgive student loans...

Educated Liberals Say Forgiveness of Student Loans Would Stimulate Economy
October 18, 2011 - A liberal activist group is circulating an online petition calling for forgiveness of student loan debt. That would do more to stimulate the economy than giving tax cuts to billionaires and big corporations, said MoveOn.org.

"With the stroke of the President's pen, millions of Americans would suddenly have hundreds, or in some cases, thousands of extra dollars in their pockets each and every month to spend on ailing sectors of the economy," the petition says. The way supporters see it, forgiving student loan debt would boost consumer spending, business would start hiring, jobs would be created, and "a new era of innovation, entrepreneurship, and prosperity will be ushered in for all."

Forgiveness of student loans is among the demands of the Occupy Wall Street protest movement, but the suggestion is not new. Two years ago, shortly after President Obama signed his economic stimulus package, a liberal activist proposed forgiveness of student debt instead, and he set up a website to spread the word. The effort has at least one supporter in Congress: Rep. Hansen Clarke (D-Mich.) has introduced a resolution seeking student loan forgiveness as a means of economic stimulus.

The petition calling on Congress to pass a bill forgiving student loans had around 564,000 signatures as of early Tuesday morning. "The future economic success of this country is wholly dependent upon a well-educated, prosperous middle class," the petition says. "Instead of saddling entire generations with debt from which there is no escape, let's empower the American people to grow this economy on their own." The petitioners call it a “trickle-up” approach to stimulating the economy.

Source

I'm already way past school. I'm holding out for the great mortgage, credit card and car loan giveaway.....I mean, debt forgiveness.

 

[Si modo]

The Department of Education ruins education. Period.

 

[Katzndogz]

College tuition has risen right along with professor's salaries. The faculty wants more money, guess what. It has to come from someplace.

 

[Katzndogz]

Maybe we should have colleges and universities like they do in China. Completely free. There are no fluffy courses. No social study programs, just hard core education. And, you do not get to fail. Failure is not an option. There is no partying, no drinking, no sex, no drugs. Fun seekers and failures have a different employment for them. After all, you don't think anyone really applies for those factory jobs, do you?

 

[Si modo]

Maybe we should have colleges and universities like they do in China. Completely free. There are no fluffy courses. No social study programs, just hard core education. And, you do not get to fail. Failure is not an option. There is no partying, no drinking, no sex, no drugs. Fun seekers and failures have a different employment for them. After all, you don't think anyone really applies for those factory jobs, do you?

And, admissions? Does everyone go?

 

[Si modo]

College tuition has risen right along with professor's salaries. The faculty wants more money, guess what. It has to come from someplace.

Starting salaries for tenure track faculty is very, very piss-poor.

For example, for a chemistry professor starting his/her career as a tenure-track prof, the average salary is $54K. That same chemist could get a job in the private sector for double that. And, at the federal government for at least 60% more than academia.

And, the starting salaries of chemistry professors is much, much higher than that for a professor teaching some liberal art.

No, the professors' salaries are not a significant factor.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Why aren't the OWS folks out there protesting Big Education?

 

[chanel]

I made that point a while ago. I do have sympathy with college grads who have been lied to and scammed by the idea that a college grad will make a million dollars more than a HS grad. But they are mad at the wrong institutions.

 

[PoliticalChic]

In part the cost of education rising has to do with the availability of loans to pay for college.

This incidently, in also why the cost of health care rose at a rate so much higher than inflation generally.

Ironic, no?

Great post!

There should be absolutely no college loans via any government agency.

As it stands, Liberal programs take eveyone's tax money and launder it through Liberal institutions of higher something or other and funnel it back to....guess what....Liberal politicians!

Harvard, Stanford and Columbia gave almost two million dollars to ....guess who in '08.


And old pols never die....they become professors.

Scam.


At least one person on campus has done OK as the economy has declined: public university presidents' salaries climbed 7.6% last year.
Fifteen presidents of public research universities took home at least $700,000 in 2007-2008, up from eight in last year's survey, and nearly one-third now earn over $500,000, according to the annual Chronicle of Higher Education survey out Monday.
College presidents' salaries increase: One-third earn over $500K - USATODAY.com

 

[Katzndogz]

Maybe we should have colleges and universities like they do in China. Completely free. There are no fluffy courses. No social study programs, just hard core education. And, you do not get to fail. Failure is not an option. There is no partying, no drinking, no sex, no drugs. Fun seekers and failures have a different employment for them. After all, you don't think anyone really applies for those factory jobs, do you?

And, admissions? Does everyone go?

They have to qualify and have good grades, but no Chinese University charges a Chinese national anything. My art teacher and his wife are from China. She's a surgeon. It did not cost her a cent. I've heard many a recount from them how terrified they were that someone would find out that they had a relationship at all. One kiss can get a student kicked out and sent to the factories or the farms. There is zero tolerance for foolishness.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Education can be cheap, credentials cost a lot.

I have these two books:

Glencoe Accounting: First Year Course, Student Edition 4th Edition

Glencoe Accounting: First Year Course, Student Edition 4th Edition by McGraw-Hill Staff | 002815004X | 9780028150048 | Chegg.com

The Accounting Game : Basic Accounting Fresh from the Lemonade Stand

The Accounting Game : Basic Accounting Fresh from the Lemonade Stand // Discounted Books from Excel Tip .com

The first book says it is the first year of accounting and it costs $75 to $128 or around 5 or 9 times as much as the second. It is 800 pages, has a hard cover and weighs at least 5 times as much as the second book which is only 180 pages.

But there is what is called the Basic Accounting Equation which comes in two slightly different forms.

Assets - Liabilities = Net Worth

Assets = Liabilities + Owner's Equity

They are the same equation with a little algebraic and semantic differences. The first book does not have that equation until page 48. The second book has it on page 8.

So in a way those books demonstrate the problem with our so called educational system. Students have to spend a lot of time and money to get watered down information and they pay for expensive books and expensive campuses, but what is supposed to matter is what ends up between their ears. Double-entry accounting is SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS OLD!!! Making a big deal out of it is ridiculous. This pretense that it is difficult to understand is a bunch of bullsh#! But how can accountants charge a lot of money and pay off their student loans if they don't pretend it is difficult? So these costs have to be passed on as long as students are dumb enough to pay them.

And that is not a worthless Liberal Arts degree.

So if lots of people get that second book and don't hire accountants...Oops!

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I just checked something else in those two books, depreciation. The Glencoe books does not mention depreciation until page 624. The Accounting Game has it on page 114. So the more expensive book is not designed to help the student learn a lot quickly. It is designed to help schools and book publishers make a lot of money while wasting student's time dribbling out watered down information.

psik

 

[Unkotare]

Maybe we should have colleges and universities like they do in China. Completely free. There are no fluffy courses. No social study programs, just hard core education. And, you do not get to fail. Failure is not an option. There is no partying, no drinking, no sex, no drugs. Fun seekers and failures have a different employment for them. After all, you don't think anyone really applies for those factory jobs, do you?

Universities in China are not free, there are liberal arts programs, you can fail, the kids drink, have sex, and to a certain extent do drugs. And yes, people do apply for factory jobs.

 

[Unkotare]

They have to qualify and have good grades, but no Chinese University charges a Chinese national anything. .

Wrong. And if you think students don't 'kiss' and all that sort of thing you are crazy.