CDZ Civilized Humans ???

[Bonzi]

Sometimes I think we'd be better off living like animals, true to our instinctive nature.

This attempt at being civilized is failing miserably and even worse, may be the death of us

I do too honestly
Then again, look how long it took us just to get here. It will take us a while to get to there

I guess the Bible may be true...knowledge may be our downfall

Where in the Bible does it state that ignorance is bliss?

It doesn't, in fact it says let us reason together. Again, there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom

Only when written in third person..

IRL it is different too. Some people refer to wisdom as common sense, while intelligence is more book smarts. But not always, as usual, definitions vary

 

[JoeMoma]

Sometimes I think we'd be better off living like animals, true to our instinctive nature.

This attempt at being civilized is failing miserably and even worse, may be the death of us

Examples of miserable failings, please.

I am speaking only of our situation in the US. News is just a bunch of juvenile nonsense. Most TV and movies are junk. We eat nothing but crap. We can't get decent individuals to be President because the entire system is corrupt. We can't even start our own businesses because of all the red tape, and, all the big money companies are gobbling up the smaller ones etc etc

Its a bit extreme to want to live as animals because of perceived imperfections in our civilization.

Perceived imperfections?

The imperfections of our so called civilization are the people who comprise it.

Hmmm.......okay. So should we revert to living like animals because people are not perfect?

 

[IsaacNewton]

Move to Afghanistan or what's left of Isis territory to live your dream of living without civilization where a gun decides who controls people's lives.

They can just move to Chicago or Detroit for that. Democrats work for that sort of environment day and night.

People in America that denigrate their own country. You are what you are.

Democrats don't count as 'our country'. Have any other strawmen you want to throw out for us?

Your misery is your own puffball, live with it.

 

[Picaro]

Move to Afghanistan or what's left of Isis territory to live your dream of living without civilization where a gun decides who controls people's lives.

They can just move to Chicago or Detroit for that. Democrats work for that sort of environment day and night.

People in America that denigrate their own country. You are what you are.

Democrats don't count as 'our country'. Have any other strawmen you want to throw out for us?

Your misery is your own puffball, live with it.

That strawman is even more stupid than your last one.

 

[Bonzi]

Sometimes I think we'd be better off living like animals, true to our instinctive nature.

This attempt at being civilized is failing miserably and even worse, may be the death of us

Examples of miserable failings, please.

I am speaking only of our situation in the US. News is just a bunch of juvenile nonsense. Most TV and movies are junk. We eat nothing but crap. We can't get decent individuals to be President because the entire system is corrupt. We can't even start our own businesses because of all the red tape, and, all the big money companies are gobbling up the smaller ones etc etc

Its a bit extreme to want to live as animals because of perceived imperfections in our civilization.

Perceived imperfections?

The imperfections of our so called civilization are the people who comprise it.

Hmmm.......okay. So should we revert to living like animals because people are not perfect?

At least the strongest would win, not the richest

 

[Skull Pilot]

Sometimes I think we'd be better off living like animals, true to our instinctive nature.

This attempt at being civilized is failing miserably and even worse, may be the death of us

Examples of miserable failings, please.

I am speaking only of our situation in the US. News is just a bunch of juvenile nonsense. Most TV and movies are junk. We eat nothing but crap. We can't get decent individuals to be President because the entire system is corrupt. We can't even start our own businesses because of all the red tape, and, all the big money companies are gobbling up the smaller ones etc etc

Its a bit extreme to want to live as animals because of perceived imperfections in our civilization.

Perceived imperfections?

The imperfections of our so called civilization are the people who comprise it.

Hmmm.......okay. So should we revert to living like animals because people are not perfect?

Where did I say that?

And people are animals in fact we are the most violent and dangerous animals to ever have existed on this planet.

Denying that because you think we are civilized is naive.

 

[JoeMoma]

Examples of miserable failings, please.

I am speaking only of our situation in the US. News is just a bunch of juvenile nonsense. Most TV and movies are junk. We eat nothing but crap. We can't get decent individuals to be President because the entire system is corrupt. We can't even start our own businesses because of all the red tape, and, all the big money companies are gobbling up the smaller ones etc etc

Its a bit extreme to want to live as animals because of perceived imperfections in our civilization.

Perceived imperfections?

The imperfections of our so called civilization are the people who comprise it.

Hmmm.......okay. So should we revert to living like animals because people are not perfect?

At least the strongest would win, not the richest

And both you and I would most likely be dead by now.

 

[JoeMoma]

Examples of miserable failings, please.

I am speaking only of our situation in the US. News is just a bunch of juvenile nonsense. Most TV and movies are junk. We eat nothing but crap. We can't get decent individuals to be President because the entire system is corrupt. We can't even start our own businesses because of all the red tape, and, all the big money companies are gobbling up the smaller ones etc etc

Its a bit extreme to want to live as animals because of perceived imperfections in our civilization.

Perceived imperfections?

The imperfections of our so called civilization are the people who comprise it.

Hmmm.......okay. So should we revert to living like animals because people are not perfect?

Where did I say that?

And people are animals in fact we are the most violent and dangerous animals to ever have existed on this planet.

Denying that because you think we are civilized is naive.

Maybe you did not say "that". but "that" is the topic of this thread.

 

[Pete7469]

Sometimes I think we'd be better off living like animals, true to our instinctive nature.

This attempt at being civilized is failing miserably and even worse, may be the death of us

There may be truth to that.

There are a lot of people running around now that could not possibly exist without being eaten by tiger cubs or simply starving to death waiting for someone else to provide meals.

 

[Picaro]

Examples of miserable failings, please.

I am speaking only of our situation in the US. News is just a bunch of juvenile nonsense. Most TV and movies are junk. We eat nothing but crap. We can't get decent individuals to be President because the entire system is corrupt. We can't even start our own businesses because of all the red tape, and, all the big money companies are gobbling up the smaller ones etc etc

Its a bit extreme to want to live as animals because of perceived imperfections in our civilization.

Perceived imperfections?

The imperfections of our so called civilization are the people who comprise it.

Hmmm.......okay. So should we revert to living like animals because people are not perfect?

At least the strongest would win, not the richest

Cultural evolution doesn't follow the same patterns as biological evolution does, it actually more resembles Lamarckism; all that would happen is going through the same processes needed to support larger and larger populations all over again, only without repeating the courses that civilization has evolved to up to now, only it's far more likely to turn out far worse. The wishful thinking that a return to some mythical 'primitive paradise' is 'better' is shown to be junk by the very fact that humans didn't stay that way, and in fact put out a whole lot of effort to escape that sort of primitive brutality whenever possible. If you want to try it out for yourself in real time, just go get a lobotomy and have yourself dropped into the Amazon jungle somewhere, and see if it is as 'desirable' as your fantasies make it out to be.

 

[Tehon]

Sometimes I think we'd be better off living like animals, true to our instinctive nature.

This attempt at being civilized is failing miserably and even worse, may be the death of us

Examples of miserable failings, please.

I am speaking only of our situation in the US. News is just a bunch of juvenile nonsense. Most TV and movies are junk. We eat nothing but crap. We can't get decent individuals to be President because the entire system is corrupt. We can't even start our own businesses because of all the red tape, and, all the big money companies are gobbling up the smaller ones etc etc

Your complaints are part of what Marx calls the superstructure. That is our legal structure, our culture, institutions, political processes and such.

The superstructure is built up out of the base that supports it. The base constitutes our relations in how we as a society organize the production of the things we produce.

If we want to change the superstructure, evolve as a society, we will need to alter the base which supports us as a society. Or we we can continue our slow drift back to barbarism.

 

[Bonzi]

I am speaking only of our situation in the US. News is just a bunch of juvenile nonsense. Most TV and movies are junk. We eat nothing but crap. We can't get decent individuals to be President because the entire system is corrupt. We can't even start our own businesses because of all the red tape, and, all the big money companies are gobbling up the smaller ones etc etc

Its a bit extreme to want to live as animals because of perceived imperfections in our civilization.

Perceived imperfections?

The imperfections of our so called civilization are the people who comprise it.

Hmmm.......okay. So should we revert to living like animals because people are not perfect?

At least the strongest would win, not the richest

Cultural evolution doesn't follow the same patterns as biological evolution does, it actually more resembles Lamarckism; all that would happen is going through the same processes needed to support larger and larger populations all over again, only without repeating the courses that civilization has evolved to up to now, only it's far more likely to turn out far worse. The wishful thinking that a return to some mythical 'primitive paradise' is 'better' is shown to be junk by the very fact that humans didn't stay that way, and in fact put out a whole lot of effort to escape that sort of primitive brutality whenever possible. If you want to try it out for yourself in real time, just go get a lobotomy and have yourself dropped into the Amazon jungle somewhere, and see if it is as 'desirable' as your fantasies make it out to be.

I would not say it's "desireable" but, our competitive spirt is now trivialized. We are not fighting real battles, but we are more like Don Quixote now while the powerful and rich and pulling the rug out from under us

 

[Skull Pilot]

I am speaking only of our situation in the US. News is just a bunch of juvenile nonsense. Most TV and movies are junk. We eat nothing but crap. We can't get decent individuals to be President because the entire system is corrupt. We can't even start our own businesses because of all the red tape, and, all the big money companies are gobbling up the smaller ones etc etc

Its a bit extreme to want to live as animals because of perceived imperfections in our civilization.

Perceived imperfections?

The imperfections of our so called civilization are the people who comprise it.

Hmmm.......okay. So should we revert to living like animals because people are not perfect?

At least the strongest would win, not the richest

Cultural evolution doesn't follow the same patterns as biological evolution does, it actually more resembles Lamarckism; all that would happen is going through the same processes needed to support larger and larger populations all over again, only without repeating the courses that civilization has evolved to up to now, only it's far more likely to turn out far worse. The wishful thinking that a return to some mythical 'primitive paradise' is 'better' is shown to be junk by the very fact that humans didn't stay that way, and in fact put out a whole lot of effort to escape that sort of primitive brutality whenever possible. If you want to try it out for yourself in real time, just go get a lobotomy and have yourself dropped into the Amazon jungle somewhere, and see if it is as 'desirable' as your fantasies make it out to be.

Primitive brutality is no different than civilized brutality

 

[Picaro]

Its a bit extreme to want to live as animals because of perceived imperfections in our civilization.

Perceived imperfections?

The imperfections of our so called civilization are the people who comprise it.

Hmmm.......okay. So should we revert to living like animals because people are not perfect?

At least the strongest would win, not the richest

Cultural evolution doesn't follow the same patterns as biological evolution does, it actually more resembles Lamarckism; all that would happen is going through the same processes needed to support larger and larger populations all over again, only without repeating the courses that civilization has evolved to up to now, only it's far more likely to turn out far worse. The wishful thinking that a return to some mythical 'primitive paradise' is 'better' is shown to be junk by the very fact that humans didn't stay that way, and in fact put out a whole lot of effort to escape that sort of primitive brutality whenever possible. If you want to try it out for yourself in real time, just go get a lobotomy and have yourself dropped into the Amazon jungle somewhere, and see if it is as 'desirable' as your fantasies make it out to be.

I would not say it's "desireable" but, our competitive spirt is now trivialized. We are not fighting real battles, but we are more like Don Quixote now while the powerful and rich and pulling the rug out from under us

That is almost entirely a result of the destruction of traditional values, and trying to replace them with constructionist rationalism. the problem is 'rationalists' are too stupid and ignorant to know what they're doing, and don't have nearly enough brains to pull off any improvements; they can just destroy the 'old order', but they can't improve on it and replace it with anything better.

 

[Picaro]

Its a bit extreme to want to live as animals because of perceived imperfections in our civilization.

Perceived imperfections?

The imperfections of our so called civilization are the people who comprise it.

Hmmm.......okay. So should we revert to living like animals because people are not perfect?

At least the strongest would win, not the richest

Cultural evolution doesn't follow the same patterns as biological evolution does, it actually more resembles Lamarckism; all that would happen is going through the same processes needed to support larger and larger populations all over again, only without repeating the courses that civilization has evolved to up to now, only it's far more likely to turn out far worse. The wishful thinking that a return to some mythical 'primitive paradise' is 'better' is shown to be junk by the very fact that humans didn't stay that way, and in fact put out a whole lot of effort to escape that sort of primitive brutality whenever possible. If you want to try it out for yourself in real time, just go get a lobotomy and have yourself dropped into the Amazon jungle somewhere, and see if it is as 'desirable' as your fantasies make it out to be.

Primitive brutality is no different than civilized brutality

Actual there are a lot of differences, which is why the evolution of civilization wins out over it every time, and only reverts back to it during times of instability and corruption.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Perceived imperfections?

The imperfections of our so called civilization are the people who comprise it.

Hmmm.......okay. So should we revert to living like animals because people are not perfect?

At least the strongest would win, not the richest

Cultural evolution doesn't follow the same patterns as biological evolution does, it actually more resembles Lamarckism; all that would happen is going through the same processes needed to support larger and larger populations all over again, only without repeating the courses that civilization has evolved to up to now, only it's far more likely to turn out far worse. The wishful thinking that a return to some mythical 'primitive paradise' is 'better' is shown to be junk by the very fact that humans didn't stay that way, and in fact put out a whole lot of effort to escape that sort of primitive brutality whenever possible. If you want to try it out for yourself in real time, just go get a lobotomy and have yourself dropped into the Amazon jungle somewhere, and see if it is as 'desirable' as your fantasies make it out to be.

Primitive brutality is no different than civilized brutality

Actual there are a lot of differences.

No you just think there are.

People are still the same as they were centuries ago we just have better stuff now

 

[Picaro]

Sometimes I think we'd be better off living like animals, true to our instinctive nature.

This attempt at being civilized is failing miserably and even worse, may be the death of us

Examples of miserable failings, please.

I am speaking only of our situation in the US. News is just a bunch of juvenile nonsense. Most TV and movies are junk. We eat nothing but crap. We can't get decent individuals to be President because the entire system is corrupt. We can't even start our own businesses because of all the red tape, and, all the big money companies are gobbling up the smaller ones etc etc

Your complaints are part of what Marx calls the superstructure. That is our legal structure, our culture, institutions, political processes and such.

The superstructure is built up out of the base that supports it. The base constitutes our relations in how we as a society organize the production of the things we produce.

If we want to change the superstructure, evolve as a society, we will need to alter the base which supports us as a society. Or we we can continue our slow drift back to barbarism.

The Marxists definitely proved their constructionist 'rationalism' is a total failure already; they're good at destroying weak cultures, but aren't even remotely capable of 'evolving' anything, and the same goes for their fellow travelers.

 

[Picaro]

Hmmm.......okay. So should we revert to living like animals because people are not perfect?

At least the strongest would win, not the richest

Cultural evolution doesn't follow the same patterns as biological evolution does, it actually more resembles Lamarckism; all that would happen is going through the same processes needed to support larger and larger populations all over again, only without repeating the courses that civilization has evolved to up to now, only it's far more likely to turn out far worse. The wishful thinking that a return to some mythical 'primitive paradise' is 'better' is shown to be junk by the very fact that humans didn't stay that way, and in fact put out a whole lot of effort to escape that sort of primitive brutality whenever possible. If you want to try it out for yourself in real time, just go get a lobotomy and have yourself dropped into the Amazon jungle somewhere, and see if it is as 'desirable' as your fantasies make it out to be.

Primitive brutality is no different than civilized brutality

Actual there are a lot of differences.

No you just think there are.

People are still the same as they were centuries ago we just have better stuff now

We have 'better stuff ' now because of those people centuries ago, and paganism would never have led to the 'now' we have now.

 

[Picaro]

I forgot to add that only civilization can provide the environment for any genuine individual freedom, and by the process of natural selections among those, the only successful civilizations are those that are heavily influenced by monotheistic religions that emphasize family values and property. All the rest either stagnate or fail entirely, or as we see in our own modern era, become dependent on them for their own advancement and survival. This is why genuine agnostic scholars have no problems at all with Christianity, and scoff at faux 'Humanist rationalism' as offering something better.

 

[FA_Q2]

That is a rather nonsensical position to take.

Tell me, by what are you measuring the success or failure of our current society by that of one where we live as animals?