Christians: Worry About Love First, not Gay

[Lonestar_logic]

Why do you care how Christians think or feel?

How is their belief affecting you?

Doesn’t every action begin with an idea or belief? And aren’t there boat loads of Christian lawmakers in Washington right now making laws that I have to abide by?

Yes there are boatloads of Christians making laws you have to abide by. What is your point?

 

[R.D.]

A situation where a neighbor is blaring rock music and bothering others is not harmonious. Notice I didn't say a town where everyone was indulging in whatever selfish pleasure they wished; I instead said a town that is living harmoniously, in peace, and where all are well fed.

"Harmonious" usually means that all people are conscientious of their neighbors, and in most situations I don't think blaring rock music late at night generally will fit that bill.

So laws would be necessary to curb some people?

I don't know, did I say that?

Then why can't music be loud? Why is the neighbor who dislikes the music preferable in your view?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

How about we scale things down a bit and consider a small town. Are you saying it's not possible that all in the small town can work together in relative harmony, live peacefully, and assure that all are fed?

This scenario is not possible?

If it is possible, do you consider that "good" or "bad"?

You said all good is subjective; I'm challenging that.

No it's not possible because everyone has a different sense of what is harmonious and peaceful. I may find that blaring hard rock through my speakers late at night is peaceful and brings me harmony, my neighbors would probably disagree.

Good is subjective. You may think that spanking your children is good for them, other parents think it's harmful.

A situation where a neighbor is blaring rock music and bothering others is not harmonious. Notice I didn't say a town where everyone was indulging in whatever selfish pleasure they wished; I instead said a town that is living harmoniously, in peace, and where all are well fed.

"Harmonious" usually means that all people are conscientious of their neighbors, and in most situations I don't think blaring rock music late at night generally will fit that bill.

But it's harmonious to the guy that's blaring the music and his family and friends like it.

What you're saying is that these town folk can live in harmony and peace as long as they aren't selfish about what brings them harmony and peace.

What you fail to understand is that there will never be such a town. The reason, as I've tried to explain is because not everyone's idea of harmony and peace are the same.

Not everyone is going to be in agreement 100 percent of the time and that's what is required for a harmonious society.

 

[KevinWestern]

Why do you care how Christians think or feel?

How is their belief affecting you?

Doesn’t every action begin with an idea or belief? And aren’t there boat loads of Christian lawmakers in Washington right now making laws that I have to abide by?

Yes there are boatloads of Christians making laws you have to abide by. What is your point?

Well, lol you just asked me "how is their belief affecting you" - right??

 

[KevinWestern]

So laws would be necessary to curb some people?

I don't know, did I say that?

Then why can't music be loud? Why is the neighbor who dislikes the music preferable in your view?

It can be loud, that's fine. But the moment it is disrupting the lives of others within the community we all share and live, it is creating disharmony and at that point it will call for compromise. Maybe all neighbors can agree that the guy can blare music until 9pm, restoring harmony.

If no one can hear the music you're blaring, or if it is not disrupting anyone else's peace, then loud music is OK.

See, we can't necessarily classify "loud music" as good or bad, but can't we classify a town leaving peacefully in harmony a "good thing"?

 

[KevinWestern]

But it's harmonious to the guy that's blaring the music and his family and friends like it.

But lonestar - I'm talking about the 'entire town' being in harmony. If the 'entire town' doesn't mind the loud music, then fine it's not creating disharmony. But if it's disrupting the sleep patterns of 80% of the towns inhabitants, obviously a compromise is needed to restore harmony in the town.

Harmony doesn't mean that everyone gets to live out all of their selfish fantasies.

What you're saying is that these town folk can live in harmony and peace as long as they aren't selfish about what brings them harmony and peace.

What you fail to understand is that there will never be such a town. The reason, as I've tried to explain is because not everyone's idea of harmony and peace are the same.

Not everyone is going to be in agreement 100 percent of the time and that's what is required for a harmonious society.

Ever heard of compromise?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Doesn’t every action begin with an idea or belief? And aren’t there boat loads of Christian lawmakers in Washington right now making laws that I have to abide by?

Yes there are boatloads of Christians making laws you have to abide by. What is your point?

Well, lol you just asked me "how is their belief affecting you" - right??

Yes and if that's your answer then you are in a world of hurt because no matter who the lawmakers are they are going to make decisions based on their beliefs and/or ideology.

Tell me, what is it about the Christian faith that scares you?

 

[R.D.]

I don't know, did I say that?

Then why can't music be loud? Why is the neighbor who dislikes the music preferable in your view?

It can be loud, that's fine. But the moment it is disrupting the lives of others within the community we all share and live, it is creating disharmony and at that point it will call for compromise. Maybe all neighbors can agree that the guy can blare music until 9pm, restoring harmony.

If no one can hear the music you're blaring, or if it is not disrupting anyone else's peace, then loud music is OK.

You're putting rules and conditions on how people may choose to live. That is rule by the majority (the point I think your making) or compromise. Not harmony.

 

[KevinWestern]

Then why can't music be loud? Why is the neighbor who dislikes the music preferable in your view?

It can be loud, that's fine. But the moment it is disrupting the lives of others within the community we all share and live, it is creating disharmony and at that point it will call for compromise. Maybe all neighbors can agree that the guy can blare music until 9pm, restoring harmony.

If no one can hear the music you're blaring, or if it is not disrupting anyone else's peace, then loud music is OK.

You're putting rules and conditions on how people may choose to live. That is rule by the majority (the point I think your making) or comprimise. Not harmony.

If the guy blaring music is OK with shutting things off at 9pm, and so are all the neighbors that live near his house - that is not harmony?

 

[R.D.]

It can be loud, that's fine. But the moment it is disrupting the lives of others within the community we all share and live, it is creating disharmony and at that point it will call for compromise. Maybe all neighbors can agree that the guy can blare music until 9pm, restoring harmony.

If no one can hear the music you're blaring, or if it is not disrupting anyone else's peace, then loud music is OK.

You're putting rules and conditions on how people may choose to live. That is rule by the majority (the point I think your making) or comprimise. Not harmony.

If the guy blaring music is OK with shutting things off at 9pm, and so are all the neighbors that live near his house - that is not harmony?

No.

 

[KevinWestern]

Yes and if that's your answer then you are in a world of hurt because no matter who the lawmakers are they are going to make decisions based on their beliefs and/or ideology.

Lonestar, how about you think about this logically. If those lawmakers are going to make decision based on their beliefs, wouldn't it be in my best interest to challenge those beliefs and try to persuade them of my views (if my views are different)?

Tell me, what is it about the Christian faith that scares you?

Do I agree with all the beliefs of Christians? No. But does the difference in belief "scare me"? Lol, of course not. Why would you imply this?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

But it's harmonious to the guy that's blaring the music and his family and friends like it.

But lonestar - I'm talking about the 'entire town' being in harmony. If the 'entire town' doesn't mind the loud music, then fine it's not creating disharmony. But if it's disrupting the sleep patterns of 80% of the towns inhabitants, obviously a compromise is needed to restore harmony in the town.

Harmony doesn't mean that everyone gets to live out all of their selfish fantasies.

What you're saying is that these town folk can live in harmony and peace as long as they aren't selfish about what brings them harmony and peace.

What you fail to understand is that there will never be such a town. The reason, as I've tried to explain is because not everyone's idea of harmony and peace are the same.

Not everyone is going to be in agreement 100 percent of the time and that's what is required for a harmonious society.

Ever heard of compromise?

Yes and entire town in total agreement 100 percent of the time. It will never happen!

Why should anyone compromise what brings them peace?

If you have a wooden fence around your yard for security and privacy that made you feel at ease and peaceful would you compromise and remove it when your neighbor complains that it's blocking his view or he don't like the way it looks and it disturbing to his peace?

 

[KevinWestern]

You're putting rules and conditions on how people may choose to live. That is rule by the majority (the point I think your making) or comprimise. Not harmony.

If the guy blaring music is OK with shutting things off at 9pm, and so are all the neighbors that live near his house - that is not harmony?

No.

Why? All people in the community are perfectly happy with the rule. If the guy blaring music valued loud music over his neighbor's well being he wouldn't have agreed to the compromise. But he did.

Please clarify.

 

[KevinWestern]

Yes and entire town in total agreement 100 percent of the time. It will never happen!

Why should anyone compromise what brings them peace?

Not all people do. But it just so happens that a large majority of people VALUE the well being of their neighbors to an extent, and if their neighbors pipe up and say something they're doing is disturbing them, many people will try to adjust cordially. Does it always happen? No. But does it happen a lot, yes!

If you have a wooden fence around your yard for security and privacy that made you feel at ease and peaceful would you compromise and remove it when your neighbor complains that it's blocking his view or he don't like the way it looks and it disturbing to his peace?

I think blaring rock music is one thing because it CROSSES over property lines and can disturb someone trying to live peacefully in their home.

As for the fence, I would imagine the two neighbors would have to submit to the town's overall property guidelines. If the guidelines don't satisfy the neighbor who thinks the fence is too tall, he/she will either have to convince the town to change the guidelines, deal with it peacefully, or move (all three of which will restore relative harmony).

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Yes and if that's your answer then you are in a world of hurt because no matter who the lawmakers are they are going to make decisions based on their beliefs and/or ideology.

Lonestar, how about you think about this logically. If those lawmakers are going to make decision based on their beliefs, wouldn't it be in my best interest to challenge those beliefs and try to persuade them of my views (if my views are different)?

Tell me, what is it about the Christian faith that scares you?

Do I agree with all the beliefs of Christians? No. But does the difference in belief "scare me"? Lol, of course not. Why would you imply this?

Challenging their belief is not the answer, challenging the law they make is.

You will never get anywhere by challenging people's faith. That will only make their belief that much stronger.

If it doesn't scare you then what is it about it that offends you.


I challenge you to research what Christ teaches and then specify what part of his message you disagree with.

 

[Katzndogz]

Always, though?

Would you ever classify a world that lives in harmony, where all are well fed, taken care of, and peaceful something that is bad (or not good)?

Personally, I think there are some concepts that most all will consider "good".

There will never be a world that lives in harmony where everyone is well fed and taken care of and where there is peace.

You're living in a fantasy world.

I didn't ask you whether or not you thought that was possible, I asked you whether or not you considered that a "good" or "bad" scenario.

Not just bad, but very bad.

Such is the world of the Eloi.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Yes and entire town in total agreement 100 percent of the time. It will never happen!

Why should anyone compromise what brings them peace?

Not all people do. But it just so happens that a large majority of people VALUE the well being of their neighbors to an extent, and if their neighbors pipe up and say something they're doing is disturbing them, many people will try to adjust cordially. Does it always happen? No. But does it happen a lot, yes!

If you have a wooden fence around your yard for security and privacy that made you feel at ease and peaceful would you compromise and remove it when your neighbor complains that it's blocking his view or he don't like the way it looks and it disturbing to his peace?

I think blaring rock music is one thing because it CROSSES over property lines and can disturb someone trying to live peacefully in their home.

As for the fence, I would imagine the two neighbors would have to submit to the town's overall property guidelines. If the guidelines don't satisfy the neighbor who thinks the fence is too tall, he/she will either have to convince the town to change the guidelines, deal with it peacefully, or move (all three of which will restore relative harmony).

How do you know a large majority of the people value their neighbors well being?

I see so you want the government to step in to force the man with the fence to compromise.

That will definitely bring harmony to the neighborhood.

 

[R.D.]

If the guy blaring music is OK with shutting things off at 9pm, and so are all the neighbors that live near his house - that is not harmony?

No.

Why? All people in the community are perfectly happy with the rule. If the guy blaring music valued loud music over his neighbor's well being he wouldn't have agreed to the compromise. But he did.

Please clarify.

By definition a compromise indicates a concession has been reached. Excellence without compromise is true harmony

 

[KevinWestern]

Challenging their belief is not the answer, challenging the law they make is.

I think you may be misunderstanding me. I'm not out to challenge that Jesus is the Son of God, etc - I can care less what people think. What I'm challenging are some of the nuances of the faith, especially when it comes to the gay marriage issue, etc.

The Bible is a document that is to be interpreted, after all, and the interpreter can always be persuaded.

You will never get anywhere by challenging people's faith. That will only make their belief that much stronger.

If it doesn't scare you then what is it about it that offends you.

Again, you're using such strong words like "scare" and "offends". How about "disagree"? If I know some gay people, and believe they should be able to marry in the public sphere (notice I'm not pushing for "private"), it's in my best interest to convince Christians to stop focusing so hard on the "gay thing" when it comes to - the public sphere - and just let it go. Will I force them to believe this? Of course not. But what's wrong with trying to persuade Lonestar?

What about the word persuade doesn't fit well with you?

I challenge you to research what Christ teaches and then specify what part of his message you disagree with.

Lonestar, there are thousands of disagreements among Christians alone of what exactly Christ taught and meant. There were no videotapes, no recorders, so everything that was written down came from the head of someone listening to Christ many, many years later. Memory obviously fades with time, and individuals - no matter how pure they try to be - generally will have their own personal agendas.

The New Testament is always going to be up for debate/interpretation. Why can't I get in on that action if a great majority of the country are Christians, and will have beliefs that are affected by those interpretations (that may affect me via law)?

 

[R.D.]

So laws would be necessary to curb some people?

I don't know, did I say that?

You will.....

As for the fence, I would imagine the two neighbors would have to submit to the town's overall property guidelines. If the guidelines don't satisfy the neighbor who thinks the fence is too tall, he/she will either have to convince the town to change the guidelines, deal with it peacefully, or move (all three of which will restore relative harmony).

Some one ends up unhappy. Your idea of harmony??