Christians Aren't Required By Law Now To Go To Hell Forever In Arizona!

[JakeStarkey]

Sil, do you belong to any recognized Christian denomination or are you a free range Christian?

"free range christian".....

yup, they squawk a bunch

 

[Manchester]

Here's the whole of Jude 1


1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,

2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written aboutlong ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.


It contains not one word in condemnation of homosexuality. There is a passing mention of Sodom and Gamorrah and that is sometimes used as a metaphor for gay or anal sex in mordern society but then it has also been used a metaphor for prostitution, oral sex, bestiality, conning or swindling of people and exessive drunkeness. It's all down to enterpretation.

A quick look through does show an alarmingly explicit condemnation of "boasting, grumbling and faultfinding" though which when I look at the plethora of Obamacare threads in the politics forum makes me think that if you take this as news homosexuality is a sin then surely you wlll find that entire forum a den of depravity.

A look through Romans 1 shows a single verse that condemns homosexuality. It also has a verse that condemns boasting. So if the 2 passages that are given showing the bible condemning homosexuality there is twice as much condemnation of boasting. So where is all of the Christian backlash against boasting?

 

[JakeStarkey]

The set of verses certainly do not preach a 'common damnation', as Sil suggests, if a community permits homosexuals in it.

 

[Katzndogz]

You should absolutely have that right. You should have the right to put a sign in the window saying "Gay only" if you wish and not cite any religious right to do so. However, no one is refusing to serve gays, merely refusing to be in servitude TO gays.

You homophobes will jump through loops to justify your hate.

Just like the segregationists and slave owners, you bend and twist the bible to suit your sick little phobias.

Since the quote you used did not cite the Bible, would you please provide some evidence where I have ever cited the Bible? In fact, I cited that a business might put up a sign saying gays only and be correct.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Jude 1 in the Bible urges the faithful to "earnestly contend" to defend the faith for the "common salvation" and tells them that if they fail, they will be condemned to the pit of fire forever along with the homosexuals, like what happened in Sodom. There is a major, mortal sin associated with failing to fend off a homosexual culture from making inroads into a faithful culture of christians. They are condemned along with those they failed to fend off. That's some pretty tough language and high stakes for not taking the passage seriously...

..Christian's freedom to practice their religion is inseperable from the freedom to not be forced to disobey passages like Jude 1. The language in it is clear and unmistakeable in its severity of warning..




Yeah, not so sure about that last bit:

Might be worth it to open a business there and refuse to serve fundamentalist christians, far right muslims and tea partiers due to my "newly found but deeply felt" religious beliefs.

You should absolutely have that right. You should have the right to put a sign in the window saying "Gay only" if you wish and not cite any religious right to do so. However, no one is refusing to serve gays, merely refusing to be in servitude TO gays.

Stormtroopers outside a Berlin store posting signs with the words "Germans! Defend yourselves! Do not buy from Jews" ("Deutsche! Wehrt Euch! Kauft nicht bei Juden!").

God/Jesus would be so proud of his followers.





Edited to add source link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_boycott_of_Jewish_businesses

 

[Silhouette]

Stormtroopers outside a Berlin store posting signs with the words "Germans! Defend yourselves! Do not buy from Jews" ("Deutsche! Wehrt Euch! Kauft nicht bei Juden!").

God/Jesus would be so proud of his followers.

You know that's funny you made the nazi comparison. They also ruined careers if balky Germans didn't fall in line with the 3rd Reicht. You know, like what happened to Piers Morgan for daring to ask a man to explain why he was born a boy.

The people aren't trying to refuse service to gays. For that matter there is no way of knowing a person is gay or not until the exhibitionism starts up. This is for christians who are aware that they are being requested to assist homosexuals in the delusion that they can be "married" as "husband and wife". You can't hog tie christians and demand they go to the Pit with homosexuals as they were warned would happen to them if they enabled that culture.

Again, we aren't talking about a recognized religion or a race of people. We are talking about a fad, a cult, a trend, a mental issue that doesn't want to confront itself so it demands that the fabric of the world itself turn inside out in order to shield them from having to self-examine that they were most likely molested as children and suffer from compulsions that at once disturb and titillate them and are the farthest thing from normal.

It's why they act like husband and wife: one taking the masculine role and one the feminine. They know, instinctively, what is right. Yet their compulsive imprinting gets in the way. The solution is not to demand that the world agree to change the matrix to accomodate their issues.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Sil, want to give evidence other than your opinion that Morgan was fired for inquiring about the tranny? Was that the only reason, one of several reasons, or simply made up by you?

 

[Manchester]

Ah you're back Sil, good to see you.

Can I ask a question? Why do you not rail vociferously against Gangster Rap? The 2 passages you were good enough to point me to very far more obviously critical of boastfulness and greed than they were of homosexuality and as you pointed out those passages also condem to the pit those who take please in the sins of others.

Given that modern rap music is no almost all just boasting and displays of how much money the performer has surely this type of music should be criticised in the most stong of terms, it openly and blatantly flies in the face of the passages of the bilbe where homosexuality is criticised and I'm pretty sure there will be even more other passages.

 

[Katzndogz]

Might be worth it to open a business there and refuse to serve fundamentalist christians, far right muslims and tea partiers due to my "newly found but deeply felt" religious beliefs.

You should absolutely have that right. You should have the right to put a sign in the window saying "Gay only" if you wish and not cite any religious right to do so. However, no one is refusing to serve gays, merely refusing to be in servitude TO gays.

Stormtroopers outside a Berlin store posting signs with the words "Germans! Defend yourselves! Do not buy from Jews" ("Deutsche! Wehrt Euch! Kauft nicht bei Juden!").

God/Jesus would be so proud of his followers.





Edited to add source link: Nazi boycott of Jewish businesses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gays would be so proud of the Nazis since that's what they did to Sweetcakes in Oregon.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Because of the violent hatred and rage shown by the Nazis and the end results of the same is one of the reasons the far right social con Christians are strongly opposed when they issue their hate-filled messages.

Not in America.

 

[Silhouette]

Ah you're back Sil, good to see you.

Can I ask a question? Why do you not rail vociferously against Gangster Rap? The 2 passages you were good enough to point me to very far more obviously critical of boastfulness and greed than they were of homosexuality and as you pointed out those passages also condem to the pit those who take please in the sins of others.

Given that modern rap music is no almost all just boasting and displays of how much money the performer has surely this type of music should be criticised in the most stong of terms, it openly and blatantly flies in the face of the passages of the bilbe where homosexuality is criticised and I'm pretty sure there will be even more other passages.

Gangster rap isn't petitioning to remove state's rights to allow its people which stations they allow their children to hear as "normal music" for inspiration. It isn't forcing children in schools in California to hold a memorial day of celebration for Big E or Two Poc. It isn't ruining careers or threatening politicians who refuse to promote it blindly. Rap isn't forcing itself legally to be played in christian bakeshops, florists or photography studios.

If any of those things were true, I'd be just as vocal about it.

The key to remember about Jude 1 and Romans 1 is that its about the mortal sin of largesse, not individuals here or there, or small groups like rappers. It's about whole societies being swallowed up by the homosexual cult, and the dire consequences not just for them but for those who were in a position to stop it from happening, but who failed to act.

It is about disturbing the entire matrix within which each individual is tested for sins vs salvation. This is what makes the spiritual crime so grave, so dire and so warned of eternal damnation for the commision thereof. Rappers will come and go, but as long as what they say and do is not forced upon the masses as "normal", it is just their sins and not the whole matrix going down.

I hope this is completely clear to you. It is starkly obvious to me reading the passages in Jude 1 and Romans 1. That's why the example of Sodom was given and other societies like it. It was the example of the tampered matrix being scrubbed.

JUDE 1

3. Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not...

..7. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire...

...14. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

16. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

17. But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

18. How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

20. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

21. Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22. And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23. And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

24. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy..

ROMANS 1

22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Sil, you have no idea what Jude 1 and Romans 1 means, and your babbling on about the matrix is meaningless in a pluralistic, democratic society that guarantees minority rights.

The Bible has no standing in court.

 

[Silhouette]

Sil, you have no idea what Jude 1 and Romans 1 means, and your babbling on about the matrix is meaningless in a pluralistic, democratic society that guarantees minority rights.

The Bible has no standing in court.

Not when those "rights" violate others 1st Amendment protections... [see my last post for details] The debate is about forcing christians to worship at the altar of LGBT or else! [lawsuits/financial destitution] Because the warnings against changing the large social matrix into a homosexual parish are so dire in the Bible, and enabling this is a spiritual crime equal to or larger even [they know not what they do] than the afflicted, asking a christian to participate in any gay activity [like two people of the same gender wanting to "marry"] is the same as asking that christian to give up their 1st Amendment rights. And also to not only give up their faith, but to actively participate in dissolving that faith in others by being part of the dissolution of God's Matrix to such an extent that the lessons here to be learned no longer can be. The magnitude of the transgression can't really even be put into words it is so bad.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Whether those "rights" violate your 1st Amendment rights is not up to you to decide.

You can have your opinion, and you can argue for it.

But it will SCOTUS that decides how it is going to work in our society.

Christian dominionism no longer has a legitimate place in American politics and society.

 

[BillyZane]

Whether those "rights" violate your 1st Amendment rights is not up to you to decide.

You can have your opinion, and you can argue for it.

But it will SCOTUS that decides how it is going to work in our society.

Christian dominionism no longer has a legitimate place in American politics and society.

Your apparent hatred or Christianity has blinded you to to the obvious .

This isn't about Christianity, it's about the government taking powers that they do not have. If SCOTUS says that the government is empowered to tell you who you must like and who you must do business with, they are wrong.

 

[rightwinger]

Whether those "rights" violate your 1st Amendment rights is not up to you to decide.

You can have your opinion, and you can argue for it.

But it will SCOTUS that decides how it is going to work in our society.

Christian dominionism no longer has a legitimate place in American politics and society.

Your apparent hatred or Christianity has blinded you to to the obvious .

This isn't about Christianity, it's about the government taking powers that they do not have. If SCOTUS says that the government is empowered to tell you who you must like and who you must do business with, they are wrong.

Did you miss the entire Civil Rights movement? It was in all the papers

 

[Silhouette]

Did you miss the entire Civil Rights movement? It was in all the papers

Yes, but the church of LGBT IS ABOUT BEHAVIORS, not race, so the two aren't even comparable by a 100 miles. Not legally, nor morally.

 

[JakeStarkey]

There is no church of LGBT.

The Bible has no standing in court.

All good Christians believe fully in separation of church and state.

All good Christians believe fully in civil rights.

 

[Silhouette]

There is no church of LGBT.

The Bible has no standing in court.

All good Christians believe fully in separation of church and state.

All good Christians believe fully in civil rights.

Behaviors don't quailfy for civil rights, unless they are a recognized religion. Are you saying that LGBT is a recognized religion? Where's the federal recognition documentation? If not, they surely are not a race, since they span all races, and they are not a gender, for they span both genders. So what are they if not a set of random deviant sexual behaviors?

And BTW, good christians do object to them. That's why we are having this debate.

 

[JakeStarkey]

There is no church of LGBT.

The Bible has no standing in court.

All good Christians believe fully in separation of church and state.

All good Christians believe fully in civil rights.

Behaviors don't quailfy for civil rights, unless they are a recognized religion. Are you saying that LGBT is a recognized religion? Where's the federal recognition documentation? If not, they surely are not a race, since they span all races, and they are not a gender, for they span both genders. So what are they if not a set of random deviant sexual behaviors?

And BTW, good christians do object to them. That's why we are having this debate.

Since your thesis is in error, the rest of your argument fails.

No good Christian wants a fusion of state and church, and no good Christian wants anything less than full civil rights.