What's new
US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

CDZ Christian wedding photographer sues-NY over nondiscrimination law

Kilroy2

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
3,258
Reaction score
770
Points
140
Because someone disagree with same sex lifestyle is not a valid reason to not provide service if your a business open to the general public.
It's great that that you and I agree on most things Kilroy2
The only part of your reply that I would
have more cautiously clarified:

When you said disagreeing with same sex lifestyle is not a valid reason to not provide service:
1. Agreed that denying ALL or ANY Service to the CUSTOMER is targeting that Customer and treating them with Discrimination
2. However, not providing a certain service to ANY Customer is different.

Again, if someone specializes in cultural decor and cuisine for Hindu wedding ceremonies, they may deny requests for Buddhist or Muslim services or catering which is not what they do.

It is the TYPE of Service they are not providing.

If heterosexual customers hired them to provide services for a "same sex wedding" they would still decline the work.

It isn't the customer being refused, it is the content of their request that is being refused because that business doesn't provide that type of service. Or doesn't believe in it.

Kilroy2
To you it may seem like the same service.
But to people of different spiritual or religious beliefs, this is very different.

It is as against their beliefs as, say, a brother and sister wanting to marry.

If that idea feels unnatural or wrong to you,
that is how some people view same sex relations.

I guess if you just do not see it that way, you cannot understand how other people can have such beliefs.

All you see is throwing these levels all together as "discrimination" where you judge some people for their beliefs as "invalid" "immoral or unjust" "inferior" and "bigoted bases on negative malice, prejudice or judgment of others."

Again, I agree it is wrong to judge and mistreat a PERSON based on beliefs.
But nothing wrong with choosing WHAT TYPES of services or ceremonies to offer.

I am guessing you and otto105
just don't see any difference here.
Like being color blind or tone deaf.

Since you cannot distinguish the SERVICE from the CUSTOMER, no wonder it just looks mean and bigoted against that Customer.

well I agree that businesses general offers different services or products and may not offer all services or products of a particular business type.

I am not implying that the issue is what types of services or ceremonies to offer. If you do not offer the service then that is not an issue. If certain services cost more than other services then that is not the issue. It is a business.

First It was a generalization. IF one do not provide the service then that is not discrimination. IF one provide the service but refuse service based on discrimination then it is problematic.

Owners can have beliefs. Religious freedom is guaranteed. Public accommodation laws are the law and they provide protection from those who would discriminate.

Yet should religion discriminate.

public discrimination laws do not stop anyone from choosing a religion or what you beliefs.

Public discrimination laws just say treat people fairly. Yet does religion also say the say thing. Yes some will use religion as an excuse for war.
 

Monk-Eye

Gold Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2018
Messages
2,112
Reaction score
475
Points
140
" Goober Mint Dictates Mind Crimes Without Valid Standards "

* Dispatch Of Propaganda *

Prove where discrimination violates non violence principles
what is your point? discrimination is not always about violence.
Non violence principles are always about violence ; and , non violence principles are the standard by which behavior by individuals is determined to be legitimate versus illegitimate aggression .

* Is Free Dissociation Or Association Violence *
What is the left wing position where the wedding party has decided to deck themselves out in nazi memorabilia
what is the right wing position on nazi memorabilia?
The left wing hypocritical double standard is so noted .
 

dblack

Platinum Member
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
38,968
Reaction score
5,949
Points
1,130
Everyone has social views. It just you have to be civil about it in public because rights do not exist solely for one person in a public venue.

What rights are being violated if a business owner refuses service to someone?

If you refuse service because of a dress code, or obnoxious behavior then it is legit for a business owner as long as it applied consistently to all patrons. So business owners can control some aspects with a company policy.

Ok. But what rights are being violated if a business owner refuses service to someone?

Never heard of that right. So if someone else gets something for a lower price than I did, my rights have been violated?


you misunderstand the statement. The right is that if person A received a service then person B should get the same service in a public business. Obviously price place a factor as person A may want the cheap stuff and the person B may want to spend more money.

Uh huh. And according to that claim, if someone is charged more for the same service, their rights have been violated. That's silly.
Generally referred to as public accommodations. Generally you cannot refuse service base on a persons race, sex, etc, etc.

Establishments do have the right to refuse service but there are exceptions to that rule and they are mostly discrimination rules.

I told you, I know how the law works. You're trying to claim it's about "rights", and it's just not. No one has a right to be served, equally or otherwise. The notion is incoherent, and unenforceable without violating a long list off actual individual rights, as well as the Constitutional prohibition on involuntary servitude.

Anti-discrimination laws aren't about protecting rights - they clearly violate them. These laws are social engineering projects to suppress certain types of bias (and only certain types of bias). They don't ban all discrimination, and they don't require that everyone is treated equally.
 

Kilroy2

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
3,258
Reaction score
770
Points
140
" Goober Mint Dictates Mind Crimes Without Valid Standards "

* Dispatch Of Propaganda *

Prove where discrimination violates non violence principles
what is your point? discrimination is not always about violence.
Non violence principles are always about violence ; and , non violence principles are the standard by which behavior by individuals is determined to be legitimate versus illegitimate aggression .

* Is Free Dissociation Or Association Violence *
What is the left wing position where the wedding party has decided to deck themselves out in nazi memorabilia
what is the right wing position on nazi memorabilia?
The left wing hypocritical double standard is so noted .








" Goober Mint Dictates Mind Crimes Without Valid Standards "

* Dispatch Of Propaganda *

Prove where discrimination violates non violence principles
what is your point? discrimination is not always about violence.
Non violence principles are always about violence ; and , non violence principles are the standard by which behavior by individuals is determined to be legitimate versus illegitimate aggression .

* Is Free Dissociation Or Association Violence *
What is the left wing position where the wedding party has decided to deck themselves out in nazi memorabilia
what is the right wing position on nazi memorabilia?
The left wing hypocritical double standard is so noted .

Non violence principles are always about violence
Well if you say so


what is the right wing position on nazi memorabilia

1618769812238.png


Such a warm feeling when Nazi symbol used with an America symbol. right wingers taking advantage of freedom of expression. Oh they look to be non violent also.
 

badbob85037

Diamond Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2018
Messages
1,267
Reaction score
972
Points
1,938
This case is a bit different than the others, because NY's law is far more invasive than the others being enforced in other States.

Christian wedding photographer sues NY over nondiscrimination law

Emilee Carpenter filed a lawsuit against New York attorney general Letitia James (D.) over state nondiscrimination statutes that Carpenter said compel her to violate her religious beliefs about traditional marriage by making her publicize photos of same-sex weddings on her website. The laws require her to create photograph collections on her website celebrating same-sex weddings because she celebrates opposite-sex weddings. Violating the laws could result in tens of thousands of dollars in fines, the state taking away her business license, or even jail time.

The statutes also forbid Carpenter from publishing any sort of editorial stance explaining her religious beliefs about marriage on her website. Carpenter said in an interview that her beliefs are inseparable from her work as a wedding photographer and that the laws are violating her First Amendment rights.

“My faith has been really integral to me as a person but also to my business and the way I operate it and the artwork I create,” Carpenter said. “My faith is really the lens through which I view my art.”

So not only does she have to photograph the weddings OR ELSE, she has to post pictures from said SSM ceremonies on her website OR ELSE, and cannot post anything about her religious beliefs on the matter OR ELSE.
If she is operating on for the profit of Lucre over social morals for free basis she has no grounds for complaint.

This is our supreme law of the land:

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.
It's just democRats doing what they always do, kill God and take his place. So nothing to see here.
 

badbob85037

Diamond Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2018
Messages
1,267
Reaction score
972
Points
1,938
" Goober Mint Dictates Mind Crimes Without Valid Standards "

* Dispatch Of Propaganda *

Prove where discrimination violates non violence principles
what is your point? discrimination is not always about violence.
Non violence principles are always about violence ; and , non violence principles are the standard by which behavior by individuals is determined to be legitimate versus illegitimate aggression .

* Is Free Dissociation Or Association Violence *
What is the left wing position where the wedding party has decided to deck themselves out in nazi memorabilia
what is the right wing position on nazi memorabilia?
The left wing hypocritical double standard is so noted .








" Goober Mint Dictates Mind Crimes Without Valid Standards "

* Dispatch Of Propaganda *

Prove where discrimination violates non violence principles
what is your point? discrimination is not always about violence.
Non violence principles are always about violence ; and , non violence principles are the standard by which behavior by individuals is determined to be legitimate versus illegitimate aggression .

* Is Free Dissociation Or Association Violence *
What is the left wing position where the wedding party has decided to deck themselves out in nazi memorabilia
what is the right wing position on nazi memorabilia?
The left wing hypocritical double standard is so noted .

Non violence principles are always about violence
Well if you say so


what is the right wing position on nazi memorabilia

View attachment 481345

Such a warm feeling when Nazi symbol used with an America symbol. right wingers taking advantage of freedom of expression. Oh they look to be non violent also.
What kind do you recommend?
 

danielpalos

Diamond Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2015
Messages
66,886
Reaction score
3,630
Points
1,855
Location
Alta California, federalist.
This case is a bit different than the others, because NY's law is far more invasive than the others being enforced in other States.

Christian wedding photographer sues NY over nondiscrimination law

Emilee Carpenter filed a lawsuit against New York attorney general Letitia James (D.) over state nondiscrimination statutes that Carpenter said compel her to violate her religious beliefs about traditional marriage by making her publicize photos of same-sex weddings on her website. The laws require her to create photograph collections on her website celebrating same-sex weddings because she celebrates opposite-sex weddings. Violating the laws could result in tens of thousands of dollars in fines, the state taking away her business license, or even jail time.

The statutes also forbid Carpenter from publishing any sort of editorial stance explaining her religious beliefs about marriage on her website. Carpenter said in an interview that her beliefs are inseparable from her work as a wedding photographer and that the laws are violating her First Amendment rights.

“My faith has been really integral to me as a person but also to my business and the way I operate it and the artwork I create,” Carpenter said. “My faith is really the lens through which I view my art.”

So not only does she have to photograph the weddings OR ELSE, she has to post pictures from said SSM ceremonies on her website OR ELSE, and cannot post anything about her religious beliefs on the matter OR ELSE.
If she is operating on for the profit of Lucre over social morals for free basis she has no grounds for complaint.

This is our supreme law of the land:

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.
It's just democRats doing what they always do, kill God and take his place. So nothing to see here.
That is a non sequitur and it doesn't rebut my argument and you simply create your own. That is why I cannot confide in the sincerity of the right-wing when they allege morality in abotion threads.
 

Monk-Eye

Gold Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2018
Messages
2,112
Reaction score
475
Points
140
" Laughing At Disingenuous Red Herring To Avoid Reality "

* Eye Due Sew State Can You Reason Double Standards *

Non violence principles are always about violence
Well if you say so
A principle of non violence defines violence as illegitimate aggression , while self defense against illegitimate aggression is legitimate aggression .

A principle of non violence principles obviously requires a definition for , or descriptions for , legitimate versus illegitimate aggression .

A proposed principle for a definition or description for illegitimate aggression also introduces a principle of individualism , whereby illegitimate aggression is defined as any action , or supposition for action by tenet or by edict of creed , to deprive an other individual of either self ownership or self determination ; where self ownership includes free roam , free association , progeny ; and , where self determination includes : private property , civil contracts , willful intents .

Your position forwards non aggression principles , rather than non violence principles , but non aggression principles are not sufficient as a public standard , though many seek to apply it for a double standard - Non Aggression Principles For Other Races Towards Ones Own Race And Non Violence Principles For Within Ones Own Race .

* Cowering Behind Absurd Silly Pretexts *
what is the right wing position on nazi memorabilia
View attachment 481345
Such a warm feeling when Nazi symbol used with an America symbol. right wingers taking advantage of freedom of expression. Oh they look to be non violent also.
You have not answered the question as to whether a bakery or photographer would be entitled to invoke free association to dissociate themselves from an obligation to perform a service because of a difference in creed .

The national socialist party of germany for germans is a left wing organization , and most of those promoting the national socialist state of germany for germans are not even germans , and such a political platform would not include a german state for germans within the united states .
 

otto105

Gold Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2017
Messages
8,260
Reaction score
1,383
Points
170
Because someone disagree with same sex lifestyle is not a valid reason to not provide service if your a business open to the general public.
It's great that that you and I agree on most things Kilroy2
The only part of your reply that I would
have more cautiously clarified:

When you said disagreeing with same sex lifestyle is not a valid reason to not provide service:
1. Agreed that denying ALL or ANY Service to the CUSTOMER is targeting that Customer and treating them with Discrimination
2. However, not providing a certain service to ANY Customer is different.

Again, if someone specializes in cultural decor and cuisine for Hindu wedding ceremonies, they may deny requests for Buddhist or Muslim services or catering which is not what they do.

It is the TYPE of Service they are not providing.

If heterosexual customers hired them to provide services for a "same sex wedding" they would still decline the work.

It isn't the customer being refused, it is the content of their request that is being refused because that business doesn't provide that type of service. Or doesn't believe in it.

Kilroy2
To you it may seem like the same service.
But to people of different spiritual or religious beliefs, this is very different.

It is as against their beliefs as, say, a brother and sister wanting to marry.

If that idea feels unnatural or wrong to you,
that is how some people view same sex relations.

I guess if you just do not see it that way, you cannot understand how other people can have such beliefs.

All you see is throwing these levels all together as "discrimination" where you judge some people for their beliefs as "invalid" "immoral or unjust" "inferior" and "bigoted bases on negative malice, prejudice or judgment of others."

Again, I agree it is wrong to judge and mistreat a PERSON based on beliefs.
But nothing wrong with choosing WHAT TYPES of services or ceremonies to offer.

I am guessing you and otto105
just don't see any difference here.
Like being color blind or tone deaf.

Since you cannot distinguish the SERVICE from the CUSTOMER, no wonder it just looks mean and bigoted against that Customer.
emily the person who doesn't see the difference is you. You're comparing apples to oranges or inventing a strawman argument to fit your needs.

First, if a I open a French Cuisine restaurant and someone comes in requesting Tex-Mex that would not be discrimination.

However, if I open a business selling Honda cars and want to post on my website that I don't do business with a certain group of people that is.


BTW can you post the differences a wedding photographer would do shooting straight weddings to that of same sex ones?
 

Kilroy2

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
3,258
Reaction score
770
Points
140
" Laughing At Disingenuous Red Herring To Avoid Reality "

* Eye Due Sew State Can You Reason Double Standards *

Non violence principles are always about violence
Well if you say so
A principle of non violence defines violence as illegitimate aggression , while self defense against illegitimate aggression is legitimate aggression .

A principle of non violence principles obviously requires a definition for , or descriptions for , legitimate versus illegitimate aggression .

A proposed principle for a definition or description for illegitimate aggression also introduces a principle of individualism , whereby illegitimate aggression is defined as any action , or supposition for action by tenet or by edict of creed , to deprive an other individual of either self ownership or self determination ; where self ownership includes free roam , free association , progeny ; and , where self determination includes : private property , civil contracts , willful intents .

Your position forwards non aggression principles , rather than non violence principles , but non aggression principles are not sufficient as a public standard , though many seek to apply it for a double standard - Non Aggression Principles For Other Races Towards Ones Own Race And Non Violence Principles For Within Ones Own Race .

* Cowering Behind Absurd Silly Pretexts *
what is the right wing position on nazi memorabilia
View attachment 481345
Such a warm feeling when Nazi symbol used with an America symbol. right wingers taking advantage of freedom of expression. Oh they look to be non violent also.

You have not answered the question as to whether a bakery or photographer would be entitled to invoke free association to dissociate themselves from an obligation to perform a service because of a difference in creed .

The national socialist party of germany for germans is a left wing organization , and most of those promoting the national socialist state of germany for germans are not even germans , and such a political platform would not include a german state for germans within the united states .


When did you ask the question or are you assuming you asked it. You talked about aggression and non violence and now it about association.

well if you believe in free association then fine. IF this association does harm them there will be consequences where freedom to associated is limited.

Baker and photographer can choose who they associate with in a private setting. Yet if they are in a business then they choose to associate in a business environment which is open to the general public and there will be associations and interacting with many different people. You can use location of the business to narrow it and control associations that one will be exposed to.

Freedom of association is like any other freedom. You can sometimes choose but sometimes you do have to give it up in order to achieve whatever goals you set in life. The harm factor in your associations would and should limit that freedom.

Individual freedom vs other peoples freedom in a society. My question to you does that require respect or as a minimum acceptance from all parties involved when dealing in a business environment.
 

emilynghiem

Constitutionalist / Universalist
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
22,600
Reaction score
3,508
Points
290
Location
National Freedmen's Town District
Because someone disagree with same sex lifestyle is not a valid reason to not provide service if your a business open to the general public.
It's great that that you and I agree on most things Kilroy2
The only part of your reply that I would
have more cautiously clarified:

When you said disagreeing with same sex lifestyle is not a valid reason to not provide service:
1. Agreed that denying ALL or ANY Service to the CUSTOMER is targeting that Customer and treating them with Discrimination
2. However, not providing a certain service to ANY Customer is different.

Again, if someone specializes in cultural decor and cuisine for Hindu wedding ceremonies, they may deny requests for Buddhist or Muslim services or catering which is not what they do.

It is the TYPE of Service they are not providing.

If heterosexual customers hired them to provide services for a "same sex wedding" they would still decline the work.

It isn't the customer being refused, it is the content of their request that is being refused because that business doesn't provide that type of service. Or doesn't believe in it.

Kilroy2
To you it may seem like the same service.
But to people of different spiritual or religious beliefs, this is very different.

It is as against their beliefs as, say, a brother and sister wanting to marry.

If that idea feels unnatural or wrong to you,
that is how some people view same sex relations.

I guess if you just do not see it that way, you cannot understand how other people can have such beliefs.

All you see is throwing these levels all together as "discrimination" where you judge some people for their beliefs as "invalid" "immoral or unjust" "inferior" and "bigoted bases on negative malice, prejudice or judgment of others."

Again, I agree it is wrong to judge and mistreat a PERSON based on beliefs.
But nothing wrong with choosing WHAT TYPES of services or ceremonies to offer.

I am guessing you and otto105
just don't see any difference here.
Like being color blind or tone deaf.

Since you cannot distinguish the SERVICE from the CUSTOMER, no wonder it just looks mean and bigoted against that Customer.
emily the person who doesn't see the difference is you. You're comparing apples to oranges or inventing a strawman argument to fit your needs.

First, if a I open a French Cuisine restaurant and someone comes in requesting Tex-Mex that would not be discrimination.

However, if I open a business selling Honda cars and want to post on my website that I don't do business with a certain group of people that is.


BTW can you post the differences a wedding photographer would do shooting straight weddings to that of same sex ones?
Because to people with those religious or spiritual beliefs IT IS DIFFERENT.
And not only DIFFERENT, but same sex relations are AGAINST THEIR BELIEFS.

You clearly get it if someone else is imposing their beliefs on you.

This is a case where you are trying to impose your beliefs on someone else.

The WHOLE conflict is because people have different beliefs!

So different that you cannot see it.

In comparison with serving "French cuisine vs Tex Mex" it is even more problematic than that:
It is like trying to force a Hindu business to serve beef which is AGAINST their religion,
Or trying to force a Muslim business to
serve pork which is AGAINST their religion.

With Christians who do not believe in same sex relations as normal or healthy, there are some who truly hold that to be against their beliefs, and to them that is a whole separate culture or belief.

It is not the same as hosting or participating or endorsing a traditional wedding with male/female spiritual partners.

To you, it is apparently the same.
You have the right to practice this policy yourself, of treating any weddings the same.

But not forcing that on others who cannot by conscience endorse or participate because it is against their beliefs.
 

Monk-Eye

Gold Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2018
Messages
2,112
Reaction score
475
Points
140
" Concentration Camps Of Complicity Calling It Liberty "

* Short Memory Ignoring Emphasis On Standards *

When did you ask the question or are you assuming you asked it. You talked about aggression and non violence and now it about association.
You were directly asked whether a baker or a photographer would be able to decline the requests by a wedding party if it were disclosed that the venue would be set with nazi regalia .

The principles of non violence and individualism include free association .

Issue is the left are pushing the religion of their creed to force association , along with a cancel culture , whereas those pushing for individuals to remain independent of bureaucratic dictates are the ones under duress .

There are cake makers and photographers other than those targeted for harassment for choosing to freely dissociate themselves from others based on creed , so find one .

If those whose creed is to respect free association , supposedly to live and let live , begin to prevent bakers or photographers from providing a contracted service with which they disagree , assuming the service is non violent , then the principles of non violence and individualism would incriminate them .

* Over Drawn Expectations For The Ability To Dictate *
well if you believe in free association then fine. IF this association does harm them there will be consequences where freedom to associated is limited.
Baker and photographer can choose who they associate with in a private setting. Yet if they are in a business then they choose to associate in a business environment which is open to the general public and there will be associations and interacting with many different people. You can use location of the business to narrow it and control associations that one will be exposed to.
Freedom of association is like any other freedom. You can sometimes choose but sometimes you do have to give it up in order to achieve whatever goals you set in life. The harm factor in your associations would and should limit that freedom.
Individual freedom vs other peoples freedom in a society. My question to you does that require respect or as a minimum acceptance from all parties involved when dealing in a business environment.
Unlike a public setting where individuals walk in , choose something from a shelf , check out and leave , without ever directly needing to disclose their creed , bakers and photographers are contracted and if that negotiation results in another revealing their creed , the contracted are entitled to decline the service .
 

danielpalos

Diamond Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2015
Messages
66,886
Reaction score
3,630
Points
1,855
Location
Alta California, federalist.
Because to people with those religious or spiritual beliefs IT IS DIFFERENT.
And not only DIFFERENT, but same sex relations are AGAINST THEIR BELIEFS.
We are a nation of Laws not Beliefs.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
 

jc456

Diamond Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
96,375
Reaction score
11,491
Points
2,030
She can exercise her freedom of speech anytime, but using a public accommodation (her business) as the vehicle is not one of them.
explain that?
 

jc456

Diamond Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
96,375
Reaction score
11,491
Points
2,030
You're not pointing that out. Your reference to Facebook and "censoring" trumpsters is not the same as posting "No gays allowed" on a store front.

Are you stating that their the same?
how so? it's all advertising.
 

jc456

Diamond Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
96,375
Reaction score
11,491
Points
2,030
Compelling speech seems like a violation of the First Amendment not a religious issue.


The irony of it all is that they are partially making a religious statement to discriminate.

Leave it to lefty to not understand the imperatives of liberty. It's the state that is unlawfully discriminating!

The state is required to protect all citizens. Using liberty to discriminate is akin to using religion to discriminate.
isn't she a citizen?
 

jc456

Diamond Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
96,375
Reaction score
11,491
Points
2,030
I totally support same sex marriage. I also totally support the photographer, here.

Am I the only one here, or are there others?
I'm for everyone's right to be who they are and not forcing your footprint onto society. If one doesn't wish to support a belief that is not theirs, that's their right. PERIOD. Force is not what this country is about.
 

USMB Server Goals

Total amount
$20.00
Goal
$350.00

Most reactions - Past 7 days

Forum List

Top