Christian values

[koshergrl]

The ten commandments were given to Moses by God and Christians are to keep those commandments, Flacaltenn. I agree with you that atheists can live good moral lives. If it were not true we would not be able to find such examples in the Bible, yet we can.

I have known families who do not acknowledge God in any way and have lived lives that would put some who say they are Christian to shame. One family I am thinking of has given to charities, raised their children to be very productive members of society and are very warm, compassionate, caring individuals. Yet they do not follow any religion and have no part of it. I will add that they are Jews but secular Jews who do not believe in or follow God (attending synagogue or Judaism). So what can we derive from this?

First, I thought of Jeremiah 35 which I'll post here - second I thought of Matthew 22 and the verse where it says those who were invited to come to God's Wedding Banquet for His Son refused to come. Then God when they refused to come and turned on God's servants (whom He had sent out) God said they were not worthy and he told His servants to go out into the highway and byways to invite "the good and the bad" to come in so that his banquet hall would be filled. And the good and the bad came in.

Who were the good and the bad? Good people and bad people who had no relationship with God! That's who. People we might call "atheists". Who knows that Don'tTazMeBro's friend will not be among that number when the time comes? You know? God looks upon the heart of a man. Men look at the outer appearance and works of a person but what is the motive behind those works? As we see in the parable of Matthew 22 it certainly wasn't the love of God motivating them. It was something else. Because they had left their first love and refused to return - they lost their salvation and the good and the bad took their place at the wedding banquet for God's Son.

So with that? I agree with you that people who do not believe in God can have good morals. In fact, they can have the very best of morals! Still without Christ, they cannot enter in because it is only through receiving Jesus Christ and being covered by the Blood of the Lamb that we can enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is the story the LORD reminded me of (after reading this thread / discussion). It's a story about the Rechabites. They were not of Israel but I believe they were included in the Abrahamic covenant. As you will see by this story - these Rechabites obeyed their earthly father faithfully whereas God used them as an example to ask His own children why can't you do the same for me as they do for their father? Look at their faithfulness to their earthly father (their good morals!) their obedience, their willingness to obey their earthly father without question! Even out of love for their earthly father!

It was quite a lesson for the Israelites and it should equally be a lesson for Christians today. If the world can honor their earthly fathers - how much more so should the Children of God Honor God by their obedience and holy lives?

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 35 - King James Version

Jeremiah 35 King James Version (KJV)
35 The word which came unto Jeremiah from the Lord in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, saying,

2 Go unto the house of the Rechabites, and speak unto them, and bring them into the house of the Lord, into one of the chambers, and give them wine to drink.

3 Then I took Jaazaniah the son of Jeremiah, the son of Habaziniah, and his brethren, and all his sons, and the whole house of the Rechabites;

4 And I brought them into the house of the Lord, into the chamber of the sons of Hanan, the son of Igdaliah, a man of God, which was by the chamber of the princes, which was above the chamber of Maaseiah the son of Shallum, the keeper of the door:

5 And I set before the sons of the house of the Rechabites pots full of wine, and cups, and I said unto them, Drink ye wine.

6 But they said, We will drink no wine: for Jonadab the son of Rechab our father commanded us, saying, Ye shall drink no wine, neither ye, nor your sons for ever:

7 Neither shall ye build house, nor sow seed, nor plant vineyard, nor have any: but all your days ye shall dwell in tents; that ye may live many days in the land where ye be strangers.

8 Thus have we obeyed the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab our father in all that he hath charged us, to drink no wine all our days, we, our wives, our sons, nor our daughters;

9 Nor to build houses for us to dwell in: neither have we vineyard, nor field, nor seed:

10 But we have dwelt in tents, and have obeyed, and done according to all that Jonadab our father commanded us.

11 But it came to pass, when Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon came up into the land, that we said, Come, and let us go to Jerusalem for fear of the army of the Chaldeans, and for fear of the army of the Syrians: so we dwell at Jerusalem.

12 Then came the word of the Lord unto Jeremiah, saying,

13 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Go and tell the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Will ye not receive instruction to hearken to my words? saith the Lord.

14 The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, that he commanded his sons not to drink wine, are performed; for unto this day they drink none, but obey their father's commandment: notwithstanding I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; but ye hearkened not unto me.

15 I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.

16 Because the sons of Jonadab the son of Rechab have performed the commandment of their father, which he commanded them; but this people hath not hearkened unto me:

17 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

18 And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:

19 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.

King James Version (KJV)

I'm certainly not generalizing here.. I choose to live amongst people of faith because I admire their discipline and devotion.. And with them -- I KNOW what the expectations should be thru God's word.. I can SEE the dedication to the task from their actions every day in the Bible belt. And it shows in their children.

I have no such guidance for the "independents" who claim to have a personal moral code and discipline.

What I'm saying is -- with enough discipline and dedication --- folks CAN develop equivalent moral values WITHOUT the institutionalized assistance. OBEYING divine words is a GOOD way to accomplish that -- but not the only way.. Without Weight Watchers -- you can still beat gluttony and sloth.. Without a congregation, you can still know right and wrong. But not without the same amount of dedication to the task that a Church going Christian or Synagogue worshipping Jew puts into it during a year.

Absent God there is no potential for a moral code... as the morality merely becomes your opinion over the next guys.

God's authority is what provides morality... and absent that, it's just the short road to chaos, calamity and catastrophe.

Wrong. Many societies have developed moral code. According to you, only the Judeo-Christian societies did it under the guidance of a real god. But the Babylonians, Egyptians, Chinese, Persians, Greeks, Indians, etc, etc, etc all developed moral codes without the guidance of your god. So ... you are absolutely wrong.

Stating a moral code and BEING A MORAL CODE are two entirely different things.

You and your coven mates have proven that throughout this thread through your inability to answer the standing queries.

If it helps, I've presented that same challenge thousands of times and to date, not a single valid response has come forth on any of dozens of sites.

How hard is it for you to understand that Christian values are good values. THey are just not EXCLUSIVE to the club because you received them from God.. It's pretty arrogant to believe you OWN EXCLUSIVELY a prohibition against adultery for example. Is that why you're pissed? Because no one else can possess that value without paying homage to you or your church?

I'll tell you one moral value that MAY be in the Bible -- but it not a front page hell-burner. And that is TOLERANCE for the actions of others -- even if you disagree with the choices. Seems like you are demonstrating that one clearly right now as we speak..

As to the OP -- there is a desperate need to return to morality and values in this country. We are being consumed by sin. Whether defined as biblical or not...

How non believers define it is irrelevant.

 

[RandomVariable]

Again it is the nuance of timing and the question of following Christian values. So is it practical to live by the values Christ, Jesus, espoused? Jesus thought that one should live as if God is in control of all things; if slapped on one cheek, turn the other, god must have had a reason; if a woman gets pregnant, the child should be born, god must have had a reason; if there is a sinner unless one is without sin they can not judge another. I mentioned Islam as a contrast. Islam teaches that god is not in control of all things and that one must identify and eliminate sin, no questions asked, no answers required. Even a sinner can enforce the law of god in Islam.

'Turn the other cheek' is not a command to allow others to beat on you, the expression is set within the context of the people to whom Christ was addressing; who were Semites.

A God fearing Semite would only slap you with their clean hand... by turning the other cheek, you invite the individual to strike you with their unclean hand... which was a sin. Where the individual moved to slapped you with their unclean hand, they were exposed as a sinner and, in so doing they would immediately establish themselves as being unworthy of God's trust, thus unworthy of the life God had given them.

Matthew 5 KJV

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

Yes yes... The Scriptures as interpreted by the Godless... what could be of less potential value?

? That is text directly from the King James Version. Are you saying you use a different version? Also from the KJV here is Scripture from the book of Luke:
Luke 6 KJV

27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. 30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
​

For contrast's sake here is the reference to the OT's Scripture.
Leviticus 24 KJV

17And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death. 18And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast. 19And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. 21And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death. 22Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God. 23And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.​

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

The ten commandments were given to Moses by God and Christians are to keep those commandments, Flacaltenn. I agree with you that atheists can live good moral lives. If it were not true we would not be able to find such examples in the Bible, yet we can.

I have known families who do not acknowledge God in any way and have lived lives that would put some who say they are Christian to shame. One family I am thinking of has given to charities, raised their children to be very productive members of society and are very warm, compassionate, caring individuals. Yet they do not follow any religion and have no part of it. I will add that they are Jews but secular Jews who do not believe in or follow God (attending synagogue or Judaism). So what can we derive from this?

First, I thought of Jeremiah 35 which I'll post here - second I thought of Matthew 22 and the verse where it says those who were invited to come to God's Wedding Banquet for His Son refused to come. Then God when they refused to come and turned on God's servants (whom He had sent out) God said they were not worthy and he told His servants to go out into the highway and byways to invite "the good and the bad" to come in so that his banquet hall would be filled. And the good and the bad came in.

Who were the good and the bad? Good people and bad people who had no relationship with God! That's who. People we might call "atheists". Who knows that Don'tTazMeBro's friend will not be among that number when the time comes? You know? God looks upon the heart of a man. Men look at the outer appearance and works of a person but what is the motive behind those works? As we see in the parable of Matthew 22 it certainly wasn't the love of God motivating them. It was something else. Because they had left their first love and refused to return - they lost their salvation and the good and the bad took their place at the wedding banquet for God's Son.

So with that? I agree with you that people who do not believe in God can have good morals. In fact, they can have the very best of morals! Still without Christ, they cannot enter in because it is only through receiving Jesus Christ and being covered by the Blood of the Lamb that we can enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is the story the LORD reminded me of (after reading this thread / discussion). It's a story about the Rechabites. They were not of Israel but I believe they were included in the Abrahamic covenant. As you will see by this story - these Rechabites obeyed their earthly father faithfully whereas God used them as an example to ask His own children why can't you do the same for me as they do for their father? Look at their faithfulness to their earthly father (their good morals!) their obedience, their willingness to obey their earthly father without question! Even out of love for their earthly father!

It was quite a lesson for the Israelites and it should equally be a lesson for Christians today. If the world can honor their earthly fathers - how much more so should the Children of God Honor God by their obedience and holy lives?

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 35 - King James Version

Jeremiah 35 King James Version (KJV)
35 The word which came unto Jeremiah from the Lord in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, saying,

2 Go unto the house of the Rechabites, and speak unto them, and bring them into the house of the Lord, into one of the chambers, and give them wine to drink.

3 Then I took Jaazaniah the son of Jeremiah, the son of Habaziniah, and his brethren, and all his sons, and the whole house of the Rechabites;

4 And I brought them into the house of the Lord, into the chamber of the sons of Hanan, the son of Igdaliah, a man of God, which was by the chamber of the princes, which was above the chamber of Maaseiah the son of Shallum, the keeper of the door:

5 And I set before the sons of the house of the Rechabites pots full of wine, and cups, and I said unto them, Drink ye wine.

6 But they said, We will drink no wine: for Jonadab the son of Rechab our father commanded us, saying, Ye shall drink no wine, neither ye, nor your sons for ever:

7 Neither shall ye build house, nor sow seed, nor plant vineyard, nor have any: but all your days ye shall dwell in tents; that ye may live many days in the land where ye be strangers.

8 Thus have we obeyed the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab our father in all that he hath charged us, to drink no wine all our days, we, our wives, our sons, nor our daughters;

9 Nor to build houses for us to dwell in: neither have we vineyard, nor field, nor seed:

10 But we have dwelt in tents, and have obeyed, and done according to all that Jonadab our father commanded us.

11 But it came to pass, when Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon came up into the land, that we said, Come, and let us go to Jerusalem for fear of the army of the Chaldeans, and for fear of the army of the Syrians: so we dwell at Jerusalem.

12 Then came the word of the Lord unto Jeremiah, saying,

13 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Go and tell the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Will ye not receive instruction to hearken to my words? saith the Lord.

14 The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, that he commanded his sons not to drink wine, are performed; for unto this day they drink none, but obey their father's commandment: notwithstanding I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; but ye hearkened not unto me.

15 I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.

16 Because the sons of Jonadab the son of Rechab have performed the commandment of their father, which he commanded them; but this people hath not hearkened unto me:

17 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

18 And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:

19 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.

King James Version (KJV)

I'm certainly not generalizing here.. I choose to live amongst people of faith because I admire their discipline and devotion.. And with them -- I KNOW what the expectations should be thru God's word.. I can SEE the dedication to the task from their actions every day in the Bible belt. And it shows in their children.

I have no such guidance for the "independents" who claim to have a personal moral code and discipline.

What I'm saying is -- with enough discipline and dedication --- folks CAN develop equivalent moral values WITHOUT the institutionalized assistance. OBEYING divine words is a GOOD way to accomplish that -- but not the only way.. Without Weight Watchers -- you can still beat gluttony and sloth.. Without a congregation, you can still know right and wrong. But not without the same amount of dedication to the task that a Church going Christian or Synagogue worshipping Jew puts into it during a year.

Absent God there is no potential for a moral code... as the morality merely becomes your opinion over the next guys.

God's authority is what provides morality... and absent that, it's just the short road to chaos, calamity and catastrophe.

Wrong. Many societies have developed moral code. According to you, only the Judeo-Christian societies did it under the guidance of a real god. But the Babylonians, Egyptians, Chinese, Persians, Greeks, Indians, etc, etc, etc all developed moral codes without the guidance of your god. So ... you are absolutely wrong.

Stating a moral code and BEING A MORAL CODE are two entirely different things.

You and your coven mates have proven that throughout this thread through your inability to answer the standing queries.

If it helps, I've presented that same challenge thousands of times and to date, not a single valid response has come forth on any of dozens of sites.

How hard is it for you to understand that Christian values are good values. THey are just not EXCLUSIVE to the club because you received them from God.. It's pretty arrogant to believe you OWN EXCLUSIVELY a prohibition against adultery for example. Is that why you're pissed? Because no one else can possess that value without paying homage to you or your church?

I'll tell you one moral value that MAY be in the Bible -- but it not a front page hell-burner. And that is TOLERANCE for the actions of others -- even if you disagree with the choices. Seems like you are demonstrating that one clearly right now as we speak..

As to the OP -- there is a desperate need to return to morality and values in this country. We are being consumed by sin. Whether defined as biblical or not...

There is no sin or human frailty that is not defined in the bible. There is no means to commit a sin that is not defined in the bible. There is no moral code except that which is in the bible which is valid and, there is no means for a Leftist to BE Moral.

And THAT is because, Nature (God) precludes the means for one to simultaneously adhere to both the thesis and the antithesis. Which is the exact SAME reason that there are no Leftist Americans.

See how that works?

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Again it is the nuance of timing and the question of following Christian values. So is it practical to live by the values Christ, Jesus, espoused? Jesus thought that one should live as if God is in control of all things; if slapped on one cheek, turn the other, god must have had a reason; if a woman gets pregnant, the child should be born, god must have had a reason; if there is a sinner unless one is without sin they can not judge another. I mentioned Islam as a contrast. Islam teaches that god is not in control of all things and that one must identify and eliminate sin, no questions asked, no answers required. Even a sinner can enforce the law of god in Islam.

'Turn the other cheek' is not a command to allow others to beat on you, the expression is set within the context of the people to whom Christ was addressing; who were Semites.

A God fearing Semite would only slap you with their clean hand... by turning the other cheek, you invite the individual to strike you with their unclean hand... which was a sin. Where the individual moved to slapped you with their unclean hand, they were exposed as a sinner and, in so doing they would immediately establish themselves as being unworthy of God's trust, thus unworthy of the life God had given them.

Matthew 5 KJV

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

Yes yes... The Scriptures as interpreted by the Godless... what could be of less potential value?

? That is text directly from the King James Version. Are you saying you use a different version? Also from the KJV here is Scripture from the book of Luke:
Luke 6 KJV

27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. 30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
​

For contrast's sake here is the reference to the OT's Scripture.
Leviticus 24 KJV

17And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death. 18And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast. 19And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. 21And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death. 22Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God. 23And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.​

I don't debate scripture with the Godless. Christ did not come to change the law... he came to ENFORCE THE LAW. Until you understand THAT... you've no means to understand much of anything.

Understand that to reason soundly, one must be in fellowship with the Father... as sound reason is the product of the soul; the conduit to God. Absent THAT... you're just a piece of meat making its way back to dust.

 

[sealybobo]

Don't you think that we should go back to our Christian values? Liberalism is a road to nowhere, it's just impossible to become absolutely 'free'. Christian way of life is the perfect way to reach happiness and protestant ethics help people to work better and earn more. It's not like we need to become religious. There are just too many good things in the Christian way of life which are almost completely forgotten nowadays.

How does it help people work better and earn more?

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Don't you think that we should go back to our Christian values? Liberalism is a road to nowhere, it's just impossible to become absolutely 'free'. Christian way of life is the perfect way to reach happiness and protestant ethics help people to work better and earn more. It's not like we need to become religious. There are just too many good things in the Christian way of life which are almost completely forgotten nowadays.

How does it help people work better and earn more?

How does being honest in all of your dealings help you to earn more? Seriously?

You're asking how being known as being worthy of trust can help you work better with people?

Come on... .

 

[sealybobo]

I'm certainly not generalizing here.. I choose to live amongst people of faith because I admire their discipline and devotion.. And with them -- I KNOW what the expectations should be thru God's word.. I can SEE the dedication to the task from their actions every day in the Bible belt. And it shows in their children.

I have no such guidance for the "independents" who claim to have a personal moral code and discipline.

What I'm saying is -- with enough discipline and dedication --- folks CAN develop equivalent moral values WITHOUT the institutionalized assistance. OBEYING divine words is a GOOD way to accomplish that -- but not the only way.. Without Weight Watchers -- you can still beat gluttony and sloth.. Without a congregation, you can still know right and wrong. But not without the same amount of dedication to the task that a Church going Christian or Synagogue worshipping Jew puts into it during a year.

Absent God there is no potential for a moral code... as the morality merely becomes your opinion over the next guys.

God's authority is what provides morality... and absent that, it's just the short road to chaos, calamity and catastrophe.

Wrong. Many societies have developed moral code. According to you, only the Judeo-Christian societies did it under the guidance of a real god. But the Babylonians, Egyptians, Chinese, Persians, Greeks, Indians, etc, etc, etc all developed moral codes without the guidance of your god. So ... you are absolutely wrong.

Stating a moral code and BEING A MORAL CODE are two entirely different things.

You and your coven mates have proven that throughout this thread through your inability to answer the standing queries.

If it helps, I've presented that same challenge thousands of times and to date, not a single valid response has come forth on any of dozens of sites.

How hard is it for you to understand that Christian values are good values. THey are just not EXCLUSIVE to the club because you received them from God.. It's pretty arrogant to believe you OWN EXCLUSIVELY a prohibition against adultery for example. Is that why you're pissed? Because no one else can possess that value without paying homage to you or your church?

I'll tell you one moral value that MAY be in the Bible -- but it not a front page hell-burner. And that is TOLERANCE for the actions of others -- even if you disagree with the choices. Seems like you are demonstrating that one clearly right now as we speak..

As to the OP -- there is a desperate need to return to morality and values in this country. We are being consumed by sin. Whether defined as biblical or not...

There is no sin or human frailty that is not defined in the bible. There is no means to commit a sin that is not defined in the bible. There is no moral code except that which is in the bible which is valid and, there is no means for a Leftist to BE Moral.

And THAT is because, Nature (God) precludes the means for one to simultaneously adhere to both the thesis and the antithesis. Which is the exact SAME reason that there are no Leftist Americans.

See how that works?

Did we not know before the ten commandments that doing those things were wrong?

 

[sealybobo]

Don't you think that we should go back to our Christian values? Liberalism is a road to nowhere, it's just impossible to become absolutely 'free'. Christian way of life is the perfect way to reach happiness and protestant ethics help people to work better and earn more. It's not like we need to become religious. There are just too many good things in the Christian way of life which are almost completely forgotten nowadays.

How does it help people work better and earn more?

How does being honest in all of your dealings help you to earn more? Seriously?

You're asking how being known as being worthy of trust can help you work better with people?

Come on... .

I have a rule. Never trust someone who talks about God too much.

 

[sealybobo]

Don't you think that we should go back to our Christian values? Liberalism is a road to nowhere, it's just impossible to become absolutely 'free'. Christian way of life is the perfect way to reach happiness and protestant ethics help people to work better and earn more. It's not like we need to become religious. There are just too many good things in the Christian way of life which are almost completely forgotten nowadays.

How does it help people work better and earn more?

How does being honest in all of your dealings help you to earn more? Seriously?

You're asking how being known as being worthy of trust can help you work better with people?

Come on... .

I can be trusted and I don't believe in gods.

I don't need the fear of hell or the promise of heaven to be good.

 

[RandomVariable]

Again it is the nuance of timing and the question of following Christian values. So is it practical to live by the values Christ, Jesus, espoused? Jesus thought that one should live as if God is in control of all things; if slapped on one cheek, turn the other, god must have had a reason; if a woman gets pregnant, the child should be born, god must have had a reason; if there is a sinner unless one is without sin they can not judge another. I mentioned Islam as a contrast. Islam teaches that god is not in control of all things and that one must identify and eliminate sin, no questions asked, no answers required. Even a sinner can enforce the law of god in Islam.

'Turn the other cheek' is not a command to allow others to beat on you, the expression is set within the context of the people to whom Christ was addressing; who were Semites.

A God fearing Semite would only slap you with their clean hand... by turning the other cheek, you invite the individual to strike you with their unclean hand... which was a sin. Where the individual moved to slapped you with their unclean hand, they were exposed as a sinner and, in so doing they would immediately establish themselves as being unworthy of God's trust, thus unworthy of the life God had given them.

Matthew 5 KJV

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

Yes yes... The Scriptures as interpreted by the Godless... what could be of less potential value?

? That is text directly from the King James Version. Are you saying you use a different version? Also from the KJV here is Scripture from the book of Luke:
Luke 6 KJV

27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. 30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
​

For contrast's sake here is the reference to the OT's Scripture.
Leviticus 24 KJV

17And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death. 18And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast. 19And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. 21And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death. 22Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God. 23And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.​

I don't debate scripture with the Godless. Christ did not come to change the law... he came to ENFORCE THE LAW. Until you understand THAT... you've no means to understand much of anything.

Understand that to reason soundly, one must be in fellowship with the Father... as sound reason is the product of the soul; the conduit to God. Absent THAT... you're just a piece of meat making its way back to dust.

Might want to consult someone before labeling me godless.

We are discussing what Christ espoused us to do, not what Christ came to do. There is a difference.

 

[flacaltenn]

I'm certainly not generalizing here.. I choose to live amongst people of faith because I admire their discipline and devotion.. And with them -- I KNOW what the expectations should be thru God's word.. I can SEE the dedication to the task from their actions every day in the Bible belt. And it shows in their children.

I have no such guidance for the "independents" who claim to have a personal moral code and discipline.

What I'm saying is -- with enough discipline and dedication --- folks CAN develop equivalent moral values WITHOUT the institutionalized assistance. OBEYING divine words is a GOOD way to accomplish that -- but not the only way.. Without Weight Watchers -- you can still beat gluttony and sloth.. Without a congregation, you can still know right and wrong. But not without the same amount of dedication to the task that a Church going Christian or Synagogue worshipping Jew puts into it during a year.

Absent God there is no potential for a moral code... as the morality merely becomes your opinion over the next guys.

God's authority is what provides morality... and absent that, it's just the short road to chaos, calamity and catastrophe.

Wrong. Many societies have developed moral code. According to you, only the Judeo-Christian societies did it under the guidance of a real god. But the Babylonians, Egyptians, Chinese, Persians, Greeks, Indians, etc, etc, etc all developed moral codes without the guidance of your god. So ... you are absolutely wrong.

Stating a moral code and BEING A MORAL CODE are two entirely different things.

You and your coven mates have proven that throughout this thread through your inability to answer the standing queries.

If it helps, I've presented that same challenge thousands of times and to date, not a single valid response has come forth on any of dozens of sites.

How hard is it for you to understand that Christian values are good values. THey are just not EXCLUSIVE to the club because you received them from God.. It's pretty arrogant to believe you OWN EXCLUSIVELY a prohibition against adultery for example. Is that why you're pissed? Because no one else can possess that value without paying homage to you or your church?

I'll tell you one moral value that MAY be in the Bible -- but it not a front page hell-burner. And that is TOLERANCE for the actions of others -- even if you disagree with the choices. Seems like you are demonstrating that one clearly right now as we speak..

As to the OP -- there is a desperate need to return to morality and values in this country. We are being consumed by sin. Whether defined as biblical or not...

How non believers define it is irrelevant.

REALLY??? So "dont commit adultery" is somehow ambiguous without FAITH? So "Don't bear false witness" isn't legally well enough defined without joining a congregation? Keys said it outright. You can't value it without God (and presumably a membership fee). Is that your contention also?

I've tried very hard to make clear how much I VALUE Judeo/Christian tenets. But I've never witnessed this "exclusivity" clause that you and others are putting on what are clearly common sense moral values..

 

[Avatar4321]

Again it is the nuance of timing and the question of following Christian values. So is it practical to live by the values Christ, Jesus, espoused? Jesus thought that one should live as if God is in control of all things; if slapped on one cheek, turn the other, god must have had a reason; if a woman gets pregnant, the child should be born, god must have had a reason; if there is a sinner unless one is without sin they can not judge another. I mentioned Islam as a contrast. Islam teaches that god is not in control of all things and that one must identify and eliminate sin, no questions asked, no answers required. Even a sinner can enforce the law of god in Islam.

'Turn the other cheek' is not a command to allow others to beat on you, the expression is set within the context of the people to whom Christ was addressing; who were Semites.

A God fearing Semite would only slap you with their clean hand... by turning the other cheek, you invite the individual to strike you with their unclean hand... which was a sin. Where the individual moved to slapped you with their unclean hand, they were exposed as a sinner and, in so doing they would immediately establish themselves as being unworthy of God's trust, thus unworthy of the life God had given them.

Matthew 5 KJV

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

Yes yes... The Scriptures as interpreted by the Godless... what could be of less potential value?

Turn the other cheek to test the cleanliness of the individual. If he sues you to take your coat, give them your cloak also, to test his heart... If they force you to walk a mile, walk two... to test their determination... .

What is it about these lessons that confuses you people?

Christ subjected himself to unimaginable pain and suffering to PAY YOUR DEBT... You REJECT HIS GIFT and then come to confuse his flock with your foolish interpretation that THIS MAN IS A PERSON WHO YOU CAN FOOL THROUGH YOUR OWN FOOLISHNESS?

A man that will subject himself to such a price, is a man who KNOWS THE PRICE and UNDERSTANDS THAT THE PRICE MUST BE PAID.

Understand Reader... Christ paid the price ONLY for those who accept him, as their Lord and Savior. It is a GIFT TO YOU. Your rejection of Christ serves only to subject yourself to the penalty of DEATH... THE HARD WAY.

You believe that Christ's way is the easy way?

ROFL! Guess again... . As in most everything else, the Ideological Left is dead wrong about Christ... .

The Narrow Path is such because THE MAJORITY is always WRONG.

Wouldn't he need to do more than cite the scriptures to interpret the passage?

 

[Avatar4321]

I haven't seen a response to what I asked. What is stopping anyone from living Christian values?

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Absent God there is no potential for a moral code... as the morality merely becomes your opinion over the next guys.

God's authority is what provides morality... and absent that, it's just the short road to chaos, calamity and catastrophe.

Wrong. Many societies have developed moral code. According to you, only the Judeo-Christian societies did it under the guidance of a real god. But the Babylonians, Egyptians, Chinese, Persians, Greeks, Indians, etc, etc, etc all developed moral codes without the guidance of your god. So ... you are absolutely wrong.

Stating a moral code and BEING A MORAL CODE are two entirely different things.

You and your coven mates have proven that throughout this thread through your inability to answer the standing queries.

If it helps, I've presented that same challenge thousands of times and to date, not a single valid response has come forth on any of dozens of sites.

How hard is it for you to understand that Christian values are good values. THey are just not EXCLUSIVE to the club because you received them from God.. It's pretty arrogant to believe you OWN EXCLUSIVELY a prohibition against adultery for example. Is that why you're pissed? Because no one else can possess that value without paying homage to you or your church?

I'll tell you one moral value that MAY be in the Bible -- but it not a front page hell-burner. And that is TOLERANCE for the actions of others -- even if you disagree with the choices. Seems like you are demonstrating that one clearly right now as we speak..

As to the OP -- there is a desperate need to return to morality and values in this country. We are being consumed by sin. Whether defined as biblical or not...

There is no sin or human frailty that is not defined in the bible. There is no means to commit a sin that is not defined in the bible. There is no moral code except that which is in the bible which is valid and, there is no means for a Leftist to BE Moral.

And THAT is because, Nature (God) precludes the means for one to simultaneously adhere to both the thesis and the antithesis. Which is the exact SAME reason that there are no Leftist Americans.

See how that works?

Did we not know before the ten commandments that doing those things were wrong?

Sure we did... Just as today, we know what is right and wrong until our subjective desire turn us from God's natural law.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Again it is the nuance of timing and the question of following Christian values. So is it practical to live by the values Christ, Jesus, espoused? Jesus thought that one should live as if God is in control of all things; if slapped on one cheek, turn the other, god must have had a reason; if a woman gets pregnant, the child should be born, god must have had a reason; if there is a sinner unless one is without sin they can not judge another. I mentioned Islam as a contrast. Islam teaches that god is not in control of all things and that one must identify and eliminate sin, no questions asked, no answers required. Even a sinner can enforce the law of god in Islam.

'Turn the other cheek' is not a command to allow others to beat on you, the expression is set within the context of the people to whom Christ was addressing; who were Semites.

A God fearing Semite would only slap you with their clean hand... by turning the other cheek, you invite the individual to strike you with their unclean hand... which was a sin. Where the individual moved to slapped you with their unclean hand, they were exposed as a sinner and, in so doing they would immediately establish themselves as being unworthy of God's trust, thus unworthy of the life God had given them.

Matthew 5 KJV

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

Yes yes... The Scriptures as interpreted by the Godless... what could be of less potential value?

Turn the other cheek to test the cleanliness of the individual. If he sues you to take your coat, give them your cloak also, to test his heart... If they force you to walk a mile, walk two... to test their determination... .

What is it about these lessons that confuses you people?

Christ subjected himself to unimaginable pain and suffering to PAY YOUR DEBT... You REJECT HIS GIFT and then come to confuse his flock with your foolish interpretation that THIS MAN IS A PERSON WHO YOU CAN FOOL THROUGH YOUR OWN FOOLISHNESS?

A man that will subject himself to such a price, is a man who KNOWS THE PRICE and UNDERSTANDS THAT THE PRICE MUST BE PAID.

Understand Reader... Christ paid the price ONLY for those who accept him, as their Lord and Savior. It is a GIFT TO YOU. Your rejection of Christ serves only to subject yourself to the penalty of DEATH... THE HARD WAY.

You believe that Christ's way is the easy way?

ROFL! Guess again... . As in most everything else, the Ideological Left is dead wrong about Christ... .

The Narrow Path is such because THE MAJORITY is always WRONG.

Wouldn't he need to do more than cite the scriptures to interpret the passage?

The reasoned presumption is that the interpretation was the stimulus which provoked the citation.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

I haven't seen a response to what I asked. What is stopping anyone from living Christian values?

Evil...

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

'Turn the other cheek' is not a command to allow others to beat on you, the expression is set within the context of the people to whom Christ was addressing; who were Semites.

A God fearing Semite would only slap you with their clean hand... by turning the other cheek, you invite the individual to strike you with their unclean hand... which was a sin. Where the individual moved to slapped you with their unclean hand, they were exposed as a sinner and, in so doing they would immediately establish themselves as being unworthy of God's trust, thus unworthy of the life God had given them.

Matthew 5 KJV

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

Yes yes... The Scriptures as interpreted by the Godless... what could be of less potential value?

? That is text directly from the King James Version. Are you saying you use a different version? Also from the KJV here is Scripture from the book of Luke:
Luke 6 KJV

27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. 30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
​

For contrast's sake here is the reference to the OT's Scripture.
Leviticus 24 KJV

17And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death. 18And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast. 19And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. 21And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death. 22Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God. 23And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.​

I don't debate scripture with the Godless. Christ did not come to change the law... he came to ENFORCE THE LAW. Until you understand THAT... you've no means to understand much of anything.

Understand that to reason soundly, one must be in fellowship with the Father... as sound reason is the product of the soul; the conduit to God. Absent THAT... you're just a piece of meat making its way back to dust.

Might want to consult someone before labeling me godless.

We are discussing what Christ espoused us to do, not what Christ came to do. There is a difference.

No, there's not. They are one in the same.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Don't you think that we should go back to our Christian values? Liberalism is a road to nowhere, it's just impossible to become absolutely 'free'. Christian way of life is the perfect way to reach happiness and protestant ethics help people to work better and earn more. It's not like we need to become religious. There are just too many good things in the Christian way of life which are almost completely forgotten nowadays.

How does it help people work better and earn more?

How does being honest in all of your dealings help you to earn more? Seriously?

You're asking how being known as being worthy of trust can help you work better with people?

Come on... .

I have a rule. Never trust someone who talks about God too much.

Well, that is what one should reasonably expect from Evil. So that serves reason.

 

[flacaltenn]

I'm certainly not generalizing here.. I choose to live amongst people of faith because I admire their discipline and devotion.. And with them -- I KNOW what the expectations should be thru God's word.. I can SEE the dedication to the task from their actions every day in the Bible belt. And it shows in their children.

I have no such guidance for the "independents" who claim to have a personal moral code and discipline.

What I'm saying is -- with enough discipline and dedication --- folks CAN develop equivalent moral values WITHOUT the institutionalized assistance. OBEYING divine words is a GOOD way to accomplish that -- but not the only way.. Without Weight Watchers -- you can still beat gluttony and sloth.. Without a congregation, you can still know right and wrong. But not without the same amount of dedication to the task that a Church going Christian or Synagogue worshipping Jew puts into it during a year.

Absent God there is no potential for a moral code... as the morality merely becomes your opinion over the next guys.

God's authority is what provides morality... and absent that, it's just the short road to chaos, calamity and catastrophe.

Wrong. Many societies have developed moral code. According to you, only the Judeo-Christian societies did it under the guidance of a real god. But the Babylonians, Egyptians, Chinese, Persians, Greeks, Indians, etc, etc, etc all developed moral codes without the guidance of your god. So ... you are absolutely wrong.

Stating a moral code and BEING A MORAL CODE are two entirely different things.

You and your coven mates have proven that throughout this thread through your inability to answer the standing queries.

If it helps, I've presented that same challenge thousands of times and to date, not a single valid response has come forth on any of dozens of sites.

How hard is it for you to understand that Christian values are good values. THey are just not EXCLUSIVE to the club because you received them from God.. It's pretty arrogant to believe you OWN EXCLUSIVELY a prohibition against adultery for example. Is that why you're pissed? Because no one else can possess that value without paying homage to you or your church?

I'll tell you one moral value that MAY be in the Bible -- but it not a front page hell-burner. And that is TOLERANCE for the actions of others -- even if you disagree with the choices. Seems like you are demonstrating that one clearly right now as we speak..

As to the OP -- there is a desperate need to return to morality and values in this country. We are being consumed by sin. Whether defined as biblical or not...

There is no sin or human frailty that is not defined in the bible. There is no means to commit a sin that is not defined in the bible. There is no moral code except that which is in the bible which is valid and, there is no means for a Leftist to BE Moral.

And THAT is because, Nature (God) precludes the means for one to simultaneously adhere to both the thesis and the antithesis. Which is the exact SAME reason that there are no Leftist Americans.

See how that works?

I might if I knew what you were smoking.. How'd we get onto Leftists? I think the state OUGHT to stay the hell out of Morals enforcement -- but they CAN'T. Contract law is about morals, Criminal law is about morals, Family law is about morals. Not a complete biblical code. But it is valid UNTIL CHALLENGED. And you have the right to challenge it.

But with that attitude --- you're gonna lose support from rational folks like me who are the SAME PAGE about America becoming a Value-Less cesspool.. Not feeling inclined to work with you about that -- now that I know you think YOU OWN every moral concept on the planet..

 

[norwegen]

I haven't seen a response to what I asked. What is stopping anyone from living Christian values?

The Supreme Court has recently.

A couple times, I believe.