Choose: Progressives or the Constitution

PoliticalChic

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1. Progressives have a rather unique view of their heroes.

“The mob characteristic most gustily exhibited by liberals is the tendency to worship and idolize their political leaders. Gustave Le Bon, in his groundbreaking 1896 book, “The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind,” explained that mobs can only grasp the “very simple and very exaggerated.” Their chosen images must be absolute and uncompromising… As Le Bon says, the “primitive” black-and-white emotions of a crowd slip easily into “infatuation for an individual.” Liberals worship so many political deities that they must refer to them by initials, just to save time- FDR, JFK, RFK, MLK, LBJ, and O.J. Ever hear a conservative get weepy about “RWR” or refer to something as hokey as “Camelot”? Passionate adoration are the primitive emotions of a mob, sentiments generally associated with women, children, and savages, according to Le Bon.”
Coulter, “Demonic.”

2.The Founders were men, not gods. “The framers of the Constitution combined the best political ideas from the past with what “The Federalist” called an improved science of politics: federalism, separation of powers, and checks and balances. Doing so, they created a form of government which had, in the words of James Madison, ‘no model on the face of the earth.’
Larry P. Arnn, Hillsdale College.

3. Still, in the view of conservatives, the Founders were men- brilliant, -but still men. Not gods, not perfect beings, but men; we do not worship them. We are not like the Liberal mob! Therefore, we are capable of considering that the document that they produced to memorialize our nation, the Constitution, has flaws.





4. Here’s for-instance. Whether the original Constitution counted slaves as 3/5 of a person because the Founders felt slaves less than human, or because allowing as a full person would prove the South 40% more toward representation in government, and therefore prevent ever doing away with slavery…it was recognized as needing a change. And section 2 of the 14th amendment did just that.
Passed by Republicans, btw.

5. Then there was the time that the Progressives decided that big government was better than federalism, and it would benefit their intentions to wrest power away from the states. They went to work on Article one, section 3, and took selection of senators away from state legislatures. They passed the 17th amendment.

6. How about one that appears less important? Article1, section 4 names the first Monday in December as the start of Congress. Simple enough to change the date: see the 20th amendment, section 2.

7. Don’t like how the vice-president is chosen, in Article 2…no prob, amend it….12th amendment.

8. Hey…what if something happens to the President? Well…is was covered in Article 2, section 1…but we like a formal list better: so, 25th amendment.

9. Exactly what the courts can rule on (Article 3)…well, let’s add an 11th amendment with more specificity.





10. Let’s see….I count 10 instances where the original Constitution has been changed by the amendment process. Some by each side.
Doesn’t seem to be any argument that the “my bad” process set in place by the Founders in Article V, doesn’t work…
…..why, then, are so many important issues allowed to be entirely changed by judges and Justices?





11. ‘There is a school of thought that validates constitutional law based on the good it can do for people now. This idea questions how adherence to a 200-year-old can be defended as beneficial today. Pragmatism, the progressive doctine, as the basis of judicial decision-making, places its weight on the consequences of a judges decisions; advocates would be Justice Stephen Breyer, and Judge Richard Posner.
In short, this idea replaces the rule of law with the rule of judges.’
“Originalism: A Quarter-Century of Debate,” by Steven G. Calabresi

a. The original Constitution is the only instrument that the people have consented to be governed by.

b. Abortion is covered no where in the Constitution. Nor is the ‘right of privacy.” Judges make these up. They find ‘penumbras.’ They imagine.


13. Why not an amendment if they are important to our nation?

a. Abandoning originalism means abandoning the rationale which ‘Marbury v. Madison’ uses to justify judicial review. Without originalism there can be no constitutionally limited government, and no judicial review.

b. Marshall wrote that the ‘principles’ of the Constitution ‘are deemed fundamental and permanent’ and, except for formal amendment, “unchangeable.”
See ‘Marbury v. Madison.





14. In fact, St. George Tucker’s treatise, the first learned commentary on the Constitution, published in 1802, describes exactly the rule of construction with respect to the enumerated powers, and the rights retained by the states and by the people.

The opinions of the Supreme Court should echo the theory of strict construction first presented in works like St. George Tucker's View of the Constitution and James Madison's Report on the Alien and Sedition Acts, and reflect this rule of interpretation: federal power must be narrowly construed in order to prevent undue interference with matters best left under state control. In the words of St. George Tucker, the Constitution "is to be construed strictly, in all cases where the antecedent rights of a state may be drawn in question.” Tucker, View of the Constitution, supra note 6, ed. app. at 151.

Either the Constitution has the force of law....or judicial decisions make the law....not both.



America is getting hosed by these corrupt and illegal decision. The legitimate method for change of the Constitution is the amendment process.
Throw the bums out!
 
1. Progressives have a rather unique view of their heroes.

“The mob characteristic most gustily exhibited by liberals is the tendency to worship and idolize their political leaders. Gustave Le Bon, in his groundbreaking 1896 book, “The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind,” explained that mobs can only grasp the “very simple and very exaggerated.” Their chosen images must be absolute and uncompromising… As Le Bon says, the “primitive” black-and-white emotions of a crowd slip easily into “infatuation for an individual.” Liberals worship so many political deities that they must refer to them by initials, just to save time- FDR, JFK, RFK, MLK, LBJ, and O.J. Ever hear a conservative get weepy about “RWR” or refer to something as hokey as “Camelot”? Passionate adoration are the primitive emotions of a mob, sentiments generally associated with women, children, and savages, according to Le Bon.”
Coulter, “Demonic.”

2.The Founders were men, not gods. “The framers of the Constitution combined the best political ideas from the past with what “The Federalist” called an improved science of politics: federalism, separation of powers, and checks and balances. Doing so, they created a form of government which had, in the words of James Madison, ‘no model on the face of the earth.’
Larry P. Arnn, Hillsdale College.

3. Still, in the view of conservatives, the Founders were men- brilliant, -but still men. Not gods, not perfect beings, but men; we do not worship them. We are not like the Liberal mob! Therefore, we are capable of considering that the document that they produced to memorialize our nation, the Constitution, has flaws.





4. Here’s for-instance. Whether the original Constitution counted slaves as 3/5 of a person because the Founders felt slaves less than human, or because allowing as a full person would prove the South 40% more toward representation in government, and therefore prevent ever doing away with slavery…it was recognized as needing a change. And section 2 of the 14th amendment did just that.
Passed by Republicans, btw.

5. Then there was the time that the Progressives decided that big government was better than federalism, and it would benefit their intentions to wrest power away from the states. They went to work on Article one, section 3, and took selection of senators away from state legislatures. They passed the 17th amendment.

6. How about one that appears less important? Article1, section 4 names the first Monday in December as the start of Congress. Simple enough to change the date: see the 20th amendment, section 2.

7. Don’t like how the vice-president is chosen, in Article 2…no prob, amend it….12th amendment.

8. Hey…what if something happens to the President? Well…is was covered in Article 2, section 1…but we like a formal list better: so, 25th amendment.

9. Exactly what the courts can rule on (Article 3)…well, let’s add an 11th amendment with more specificity.





10. Let’s see….I count 10 instances where the original Constitution has been changed by the amendment process. Some by each side.
Doesn’t seem to be any argument that the “my bad” process set in place by the Founders in Article V, doesn’t work…
…..why, then, are so many important issues allowed to be entirely changed by judges and Justices?





11. ‘There is a school of thought that validates constitutional law based on the good it can do for people now. This idea questions how adherence to a 200-year-old can be defended as beneficial today. Pragmatism, the progressive doctine, as the basis of judicial decision-making, places its weight on the consequences of a judges decisions; advocates would be Justice Stephen Breyer, and Judge Richard Posner.
In short, this idea replaces the rule of law with the rule of judges.’
“Originalism: A Quarter-Century of Debate,” by Steven G. Calabresi

a. The original Constitution is the only instrument that the people have consented to be governed by.

b. Abortion is covered no where in the Constitution. Nor is the ‘right of privacy.” Judges make these up. They find ‘penumbras.’ They imagine.


13. Why not an amendment if they are important to our nation?

a. Abandoning originalism means abandoning the rationale which ‘Marbury v. Madison’ uses to justify judicial review. Without originalism there can be no constitutionally limited government, and no judicial review.

b. Marshall wrote that the ‘principles’ of the Constitution ‘are deemed fundamental and permanent’ and, except for formal amendment, “unchangeable.”
See ‘Marbury v. Madison.





14. In fact, St. George Tucker’s treatise, the first learned commentary on the Constitution, published in 1802, describes exactly the rule of construction with respect to the enumerated powers, and the rights retained by the states and by the people.

The opinions of the Supreme Court should echo the theory of strict construction first presented in works like St. George Tucker's View of the Constitution and James Madison's Report on the Alien and Sedition Acts, and reflect this rule of interpretation: federal power must be narrowly construed in order to prevent undue interference with matters best left under state control. In the words of St. George Tucker, the Constitution "is to be construed strictly, in all cases where the antecedent rights of a state may be drawn in question.” Tucker, View of the Constitution, supra note 6, ed. app. at 151.

Either the Constitution has the force of law....or judicial decisions make the law....not both.



America is getting hosed by these corrupt and illegal decision. The legitimate method for change of the Constitution is the amendment process.
Throw the bums out!


Unfortunately for your thesis, the definitions of liberal and conservative back then were almost directly opposite from what they are now. In other words, what would today be called a conservative was, in fact, a liberal.
 
1. Progressives have a rather unique view of their heroes.

“The mob characteristic most gustily exhibited by liberals is the tendency to worship and idolize their political leaders. Gustave Le Bon, in his groundbreaking 1896 book, “The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind,” explained that mobs can only grasp the “very simple and very exaggerated.” Their chosen images must be absolute and uncompromising… As Le Bon says, the “primitive” black-and-white emotions of a crowd slip easily into “infatuation for an individual.” Liberals worship so many political deities that they must refer to them by initials, just to save time- FDR, JFK, RFK, MLK, LBJ, and O.J. Ever hear a conservative get weepy about “RWR” or refer to something as hokey as “Camelot”? Passionate adoration are the primitive emotions of a mob, sentiments generally associated with women, children, and savages, according to Le Bon.”
Coulter, “Demonic.”

2.The Founders were men, not gods. “The framers of the Constitution combined the best political ideas from the past with what “The Federalist” called an improved science of politics: federalism, separation of powers, and checks and balances. Doing so, they created a form of government which had, in the words of James Madison, ‘no model on the face of the earth.’
Larry P. Arnn, Hillsdale College.

3. Still, in the view of conservatives, the Founders were men- brilliant, -but still men. Not gods, not perfect beings, but men; we do not worship them. We are not like the Liberal mob! Therefore, we are capable of considering that the document that they produced to memorialize our nation, the Constitution, has flaws.





4. Here’s for-instance. Whether the original Constitution counted slaves as 3/5 of a person because the Founders felt slaves less than human, or because allowing as a full person would prove the South 40% more toward representation in government, and therefore prevent ever doing away with slavery…it was recognized as needing a change. And section 2 of the 14th amendment did just that.
Passed by Republicans, btw.

5. Then there was the time that the Progressives decided that big government was better than federalism, and it would benefit their intentions to wrest power away from the states. They went to work on Article one, section 3, and took selection of senators away from state legislatures. They passed the 17th amendment.

6. How about one that appears less important? Article1, section 4 names the first Monday in December as the start of Congress. Simple enough to change the date: see the 20th amendment, section 2.

7. Don’t like how the vice-president is chosen, in Article 2…no prob, amend it….12th amendment.

8. Hey…what if something happens to the President? Well…is was covered in Article 2, section 1…but we like a formal list better: so, 25th amendment.

9. Exactly what the courts can rule on (Article 3)…well, let’s add an 11th amendment with more specificity.





10. Let’s see….I count 10 instances where the original Constitution has been changed by the amendment process. Some by each side.
Doesn’t seem to be any argument that the “my bad” process set in place by the Founders in Article V, doesn’t work…
…..why, then, are so many important issues allowed to be entirely changed by judges and Justices?





11. ‘There is a school of thought that validates constitutional law based on the good it can do for people now. This idea questions how adherence to a 200-year-old can be defended as beneficial today. Pragmatism, the progressive doctine, as the basis of judicial decision-making, places its weight on the consequences of a judges decisions; advocates would be Justice Stephen Breyer, and Judge Richard Posner.
In short, this idea replaces the rule of law with the rule of judges.’
“Originalism: A Quarter-Century of Debate,” by Steven G. Calabresi

a. The original Constitution is the only instrument that the people have consented to be governed by.

b. Abortion is covered no where in the Constitution. Nor is the ‘right of privacy.” Judges make these up. They find ‘penumbras.’ They imagine.


13. Why not an amendment if they are important to our nation?

a. Abandoning originalism means abandoning the rationale which ‘Marbury v. Madison’ uses to justify judicial review. Without originalism there can be no constitutionally limited government, and no judicial review.

b. Marshall wrote that the ‘principles’ of the Constitution ‘are deemed fundamental and permanent’ and, except for formal amendment, “unchangeable.”
See ‘Marbury v. Madison.





14. In fact, St. George Tucker’s treatise, the first learned commentary on the Constitution, published in 1802, describes exactly the rule of construction with respect to the enumerated powers, and the rights retained by the states and by the people.

The opinions of the Supreme Court should echo the theory of strict construction first presented in works like St. George Tucker's View of the Constitution and James Madison's Report on the Alien and Sedition Acts, and reflect this rule of interpretation: federal power must be narrowly construed in order to prevent undue interference with matters best left under state control. In the words of St. George Tucker, the Constitution "is to be construed strictly, in all cases where the antecedent rights of a state may be drawn in question.” Tucker, View of the Constitution, supra note 6, ed. app. at 151.

Either the Constitution has the force of law....or judicial decisions make the law....not both.



America is getting hosed by these corrupt and illegal decision. The legitimate method for change of the Constitution is the amendment process.
Throw the bums out!


Unfortunately for your thesis, the definitions of liberal and conservative back then were almost directly opposite from what they are now. In other words, what would today be called a conservative was, in fact, a liberal.

Wrong.

Classical liberalism
a. “The American intellectual class from the mid 19th century onward has disliked liberalism (which originally referred to individualism, private property, and limits on power) precisely because the liberal society has no overarching goal.” http://fff.org/freedom/fd0203c.asp


b. Wilson and the Progressives tried to make war socialism permanent, but the voters didn’t agree. They (Progressives) began to agree more and more with Bismarckian top-down socialism, and looked to Russia and Italy where ‘men of action’ were creating utopias. Also, John Dewey renamed Progressivism as ‘liberalism,’ which had referred to political and economic liberty, along the lines of John Locke and Adam Smith: maximum individual freedom under a minimalist state. Dewey changed the meaning to the Prussian meaning: alleviation of material and educational poverty, and the removal of old ideas and faiths. Classical liberals were more like what we call Conservatives.


c. “Finally, Dewey arguably did more than any other reformer to repackage progressive social theory in a way that obscured just how radically its principles departed from those of the American founding. Like Ely and many of his fellow progressive academics, Dewey initially embraced the term "socialism" to describe his social theory. Only after realizing how damaging the name was to the socialist cause did he, like other progressives, begin to avoid it. In the early 1930s, accordingly, Dewey begged the Socialist party, of which he was a longtime member, to change its name. "The greatest handicap from which special measures favored by the Socialists suffer," Dewey declared, "is that they are advanced by the Socialist party as Socialism.”
http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=OTY0MjA1YzVjNjVkOTViMzM5M2Q5M2Y0ODk0ODc0MmM=



You seem to have overlooked the central theme of the OP: the amendment process.
 
Of course I choose Progressives. The Constitution just puts too many shackles on Government.
 
The points the OP makes in the opening post are simply carryovers from another thread where all her nonsensical ideas got comprehensively demolished.

Now she's just restating her side of the story in a new thread, which of course has all the rebuttal removed. It's a very common forum tactic by those who perenially lose arguments.
 
The Constitution is one of the most PROGRESSIVE documents ever created.

Progress eventually tramples over every barrier Conservatism throws in its path.

And you're as dunce.

I realize that one of your meager sources of gratification in your otherwise drab and wretched life is to engage in mutual insulturbation with posters on message boards,

but please, try to leave me out of it. There are plenty here who swing that way. Molest them.

If you want to prove that the Constitution at the time of its framing was a conservative, not a progressive document, by all means give it a try.

You can start by showing us how the Constitution was more conservative than the Articles of Confederation.
 
The points in the opening thread are self-evident to anyone who bothers to read the Constitution - which means, almost nobody.

Progressives will never argue the substance of this point - that the only proper way to modify the Constitution is by Constitutional amendment - because there is no real argument they can make.

I've been in these arguments countless times, mainly in discussions about the meaning of Article 1, Sn 8 and the Tenth Amendment. There is no possible conclusion but that, for example, Social Security is unconstitutional (as is most of the current Federal budget). But they come back and say, Well so and so Supreme Court case said that it IS constitutional.

So to figure out what a document says and means (if you are a Progressive) you should NEVER actually look at the document or what it says, you should ALWAYS consult and see what someone else said it means. There is no winning an argument with someone who refuses to accept fact.
 
The Constitution is one of the most PROGRESSIVE documents ever created.

Progress eventually tramples over every barrier Conservatism throws in its path.

And you're as dunce.

I realize that one of your meager sources of gratification in your otherwise drab and wretched life is to engage in mutual insulturbation with posters on message boards,

but please, try to leave me out of it. There are plenty here who swing that way. Molest them.

If you want to prove that the Constitution at the time of its framing was a conservative, not a progressive document, by all means give it a try.

You can start by showing us how the Constitution was more conservative than the Articles of Confederation.

Your amazing inability to determine the subject can only be compared to the skills of the protagonist in the classic “Horton Hears a Who!”

Try to focus like a laser.

The OP explains that judges have no mandate to change the Constitution.....that requires an amendment.


Is that beyond your ability to understand?
 
The points in the opening thread are self-evident to anyone who bothers to read the Constitution - which means, almost nobody.

Progressives will never argue the substance of this point - that the only proper way to modify the Constitution is by Constitutional amendment - because there is no real argument they can make.

I've been in these arguments countless times, mainly in discussions about the meaning of Article 1, Sn 8 and the Tenth Amendment. There is no possible conclusion but that, for example, Social Security is unconstitutional (as is most of the current Federal budget). But they come back and say, Well so and so Supreme Court case said that it IS constitutional.

So to figure out what a document says and means (if you are a Progressive) you should NEVER actually look at the document or what it says, you should ALWAYS consult and see what someone else said it means. There is no winning an argument with someone who refuses to accept fact.


I had planned on giving the Liberals/progressives/Democrats a few more hours before posting what you have......

...but of course, you are correct.

Pretending to have a blind eye to the illegality of judicial overreach is their choice of method.



I hoped that possibly some of the more learned would have put forth the pragmatism argument, the importance of 'social justice,' etc....but....it seems we're done.
 
The points the OP makes in the opening post are simply carryovers from another thread where all her nonsensical ideas got comprehensively demolished.

Now she's just restating her side of the story in a new thread, which of course has all the rebuttal removed. It's a very common forum tactic by those who perenially lose arguments.


Speaking of your 'common forum tactic' of attacking the messenger, rather than confronting the message....
'... by those who perenially (sic) lose arguments.'

So....no response to the idea that only an amendment can alter the Constitution?

Nonplussed?


Expected.
 
The points in the opening thread are self-evident to anyone who bothers to read the Constitution - which means, almost nobody.

Progressives will never argue the substance of this point - that the only proper way to modify the Constitution is by Constitutional amendment - because there is no real argument they can make.

I've been in these arguments countless times, mainly in discussions about the meaning of Article 1, Sn 8 and the Tenth Amendment. There is no possible conclusion but that, for example, Social Security is unconstitutional (as is most of the current Federal budget). But they come back and say, Well so and so Supreme Court case said that it IS constitutional.

So to figure out what a document says and means (if you are a Progressive) you should NEVER actually look at the document or what it says, you should ALWAYS consult and see what someone else said it means. There is no winning an argument with someone who refuses to accept fact.

If there is no right to privacy in the Constitution, why did so many people claim there was when that NY paper published the names of people in NY who had gun licenses?? Were those who objected full of shit,

are those who objected ignorant of the Constitution?
 
The points the OP makes in the opening post are simply carryovers from another thread where all her nonsensical ideas got comprehensively demolished.

Now she's just restating her side of the story in a new thread, which of course has all the rebuttal removed. It's a very common forum tactic by those who perenially lose arguments.


Speaking of your 'common forum tactic' of attacking the messenger, rather than confronting the message....
'... by those who perenially (sic) lose arguments.'

So....no response to the idea that only an amendment can alter the Constitution?

Nonplussed?


Expected.

It's not true. Judicial review can alter the Constitution in the sense that it can settle questions of law that were unsettled before.
 
The points in the opening thread are self-evident to anyone who bothers to read the Constitution - which means, almost nobody.

Progressives will never argue the substance of this point - that the only proper way to modify the Constitution is by Constitutional amendment - because there is no real argument they can make.

I've been in these arguments countless times, mainly in discussions about the meaning of Article 1, Sn 8 and the Tenth Amendment. There is no possible conclusion but that, for example, Social Security is unconstitutional (as is most of the current Federal budget). But they come back and say, Well so and so Supreme Court case said that it IS constitutional.

So to figure out what a document says and means (if you are a Progressive) you should NEVER actually look at the document or what it says, you should ALWAYS consult and see what someone else said it means. There is no winning an argument with someone who refuses to accept fact.


I had planned on giving the Liberals/progressives/Democrats a few more hours before posting what you have......

...but of course, you are correct.

Pretending to have a blind eye to the illegality of judicial overreach is their choice of method.



I hoped that possibly some of the more learned would have put forth the pragmatism argument, the importance of 'social justice,' etc....but....it seems we're done.

State the law that criminalizes judicial 'overreach', and cite the cases where judges have been convicted of said law.
 
The points in the opening thread are self-evident to anyone who bothers to read the Constitution - which means, almost nobody.

Progressives will never argue the substance of this point - that the only proper way to modify the Constitution is by Constitutional amendment - because there is no real argument they can make.

I've been in these arguments countless times, mainly in discussions about the meaning of Article 1, Sn 8 and the Tenth Amendment. There is no possible conclusion but that, for example, Social Security is unconstitutional (as is most of the current Federal budget). But they come back and say, Well so and so Supreme Court case said that it IS constitutional.

So to figure out what a document says and means (if you are a Progressive) you should NEVER actually look at the document or what it says, you should ALWAYS consult and see what someone else said it means. There is no winning an argument with someone who refuses to accept fact.

If there is no right to privacy in the Constitution, why did so many people claim there was when that NY paper published the names of people in NY who had gun licenses?? Were those who objected full of shit,

are those who objected ignorant of the Constitution?

Would anyone like to help DG or PC address this issue? They seem to have been rendered mute on it.
 

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