‘Cheap manufacturing be damned’: Sentiment builds for moving U.S. companies out of China

[charwin95]

I'm 100% for it. Regardless we have to continue exports to maintain our status as world power, otherwise we'd give that status to China. If countries were to become isolated, then yes, no country would complete with the USA, we'd be set.

I think we should also end foreigners owning U.S. real estate. That said millennial's already screwed the pooch on that one. Many figured they were above property ownership. They didn't take into account they'll be paying the Chinese rent in the form of 5Kish by their 60th B-days.

Isolated countries fail economically.

To be fair, there has never been an isolated country on a scale of the US.

AND, as we seen to be destined to be fucked by any trading partner, isolation could be a competitive policy.


THe choice seems to be either be the world's *****, or take our ball and go home.

How do you mean? The USSR failed miserably. Pretty big country.

Failed because they tried to have a big empire AND we fought them.

Not because they were isolated.

Maybe we can ask Trump why he has not made his products here in US. What ever happened to the policy buy Americans hire Americans? Just saying.

if we made our products here. How can we compete overseas?

 

[charwin95]

Trump tariffs have led to a slow down in manufacturing and huge steel layoffs. You want failure on a larger scale than that?

And made the American farmers welfare recipients. Last 2 years $28bn + $12bn for 2020 that will come out from $2trillion package. Total $40bn. Last year 20% filed for bankruptcy losing farms they owned for generations. All because of trade wars.

I’m just wondering Trump was bragging he collected $ billions from China’s tariffs. What happened to that money?

 

[charwin95]

I'm 100% for it. Regardless we have to continue exports to maintain our status as world power, otherwise we'd give that status to China. If countries were to become isolated, then yes, no country would complete with the USA, we'd be set.

I think we should also end foreigners owning U.S. real estate. That said millennial's already screwed the pooch on that one. Many figured they were above property ownership. They didn't take into account they'll be paying the Chinese rent in the form of 5Kish by their 60th B-days.

Isolated countries fail economically.

Oh, but we won't be isolated, once the manufacturing jobs are forced back on-shore...

We'll be exporting manufactured goods to others, again.

Sigh....

Do you not see the problem with your own logic? Do you think that any person, elsewhere in the world, is not thinking the exact same thing?

If you intend to use the power of government to impose protectionism to force manufacturing back into the US..... What do you think other countries will do?

They are going to put in place those exact same protectionist barriers against the US.

Again, just look at the Smoot-Hawley tariff in the 1930s.

Why didn't US exports go up? Why did US exports drop? Because all the countries that had tariffs levied against them, turned around and levied tariffs against the US.

The perfect example of this was the iron and steel tariffs.

So the US put in place tariffs on Iron ore. Canada put in place tariffs on steel. So the pittsburgh steel found itself paying massively high prices for iron ore because import tariffs on ore from Canada, and then found the price of steel crashed because one of the biggest demands for steel was exports that now had tariffs on steel from the US.

17 Months after the Smoot-Hawley protectionist tariffs were put in place, 11 different banks operating in Pittsburgh crashed and went insolvent.

Again, if you think we are going to have protectionism, and force companies to locate in the US, and all the other countries are going to be perfectly happy buying US exports... that is not a logical position to have. Other countries are going to do the same. And instead, you are going to destroy $2.4 Trillion in exports we make yearly. And not having imports is also going to destroy jobs.

The need for domestic manufacturing has now gone beyond mere economics and has entered the realm of survival.

The sooner we take the pain, the sooner it's over with.

We are so proud of our low unemployment and booming economy.

It’s a combinations of a several factors like a good symphony of music. Success in our trade partnership with other countries play a very big part of that why we have this success. As what you see (before CV) today.

So what happened if we changed all of that?
So what happened if China stop buying our products?

Can someone help me understand?

 

[Correll]

I'm 100% for it. Regardless we have to continue exports to maintain our status as world power, otherwise we'd give that status to China. If countries were to become isolated, then yes, no country would complete with the USA, we'd be set.

I think we should also end foreigners owning U.S. real estate. That said millennial's already screwed the pooch on that one. Many figured they were above property ownership. They didn't take into account they'll be paying the Chinese rent in the form of 5Kish by their 60th B-days.

Isolated countries fail economically.

Oh, but we won't be isolated, once the manufacturing jobs are forced back on-shore...

We'll be exporting manufactured goods to others, again.

Sigh....

Do you not see the problem with your own logic? Do you think that any person, elsewhere in the world, is not thinking the exact same thing?

If you intend to use the power of government to impose protectionism to force manufacturing back into the US..... What do you think other countries will do?

They are going to put in place those exact same protectionist barriers against the US.

Again, just look at the Smoot-Hawley tariff in the 1930s.

Why didn't US exports go up? Why did US exports drop? Because all the countries that had tariffs levied against them, turned around and levied tariffs against the US.

The perfect example of this was the iron and steel tariffs.

So the US put in place tariffs on Iron ore. Canada put in place tariffs on steel. So the pittsburgh steel found itself paying massively high prices for iron ore because import tariffs on ore from Canada, and then found the price of steel crashed because one of the biggest demands for steel was exports that now had tariffs on steel from the US.

17 Months after the Smoot-Hawley protectionist tariffs were put in place, 11 different banks operating in Pittsburgh crashed and went insolvent.

Again, if you think we are going to have protectionism, and force companies to locate in the US, and all the other countries are going to be perfectly happy buying US exports... that is not a logical position to have. Other countries are going to do the same. And instead, you are going to destroy $2.4 Trillion in exports we make yearly. And not having imports is also going to destroy jobs.

They are already doing it to US. They have been for decades. We have been their ***** while they profit from ******* US.

The US is the third largest exporter in the world today. We are only the 3rd largest, if you include the European Union as one country. Otherwise, we're the 2nd largest.

Further, China is our forth largest buyer. But even that is misleading, because the 2nd and 3rd largest is Mexico and Canada, which is primarily defined by oil imports and exports to refineries.

If you exclude oil flowing in an out across the boarders with Mexico and Canada, That would leave the top 2 buyers of US exports as China and the EU. Which again requires you take the entire European Union, as one giant country. If you look at the EU as separate countries.....

The the number one, largest buyer of US produced goods is China.

The US is a huge exporter, and China is a huge buyer of US exports.

You claim that China has been doing this for decades? Then they really suck at doing it.

Very nice spin. I sure that there are many Free Trade Ideologues and people who make money off the status quo who will be happy to accept that perception of reality and pretend that everything is fine.


Meanwhile, our society is so fucked that our life spans are actually DROPPING.

Life span and economics are not directly connected.

That's a strange argument to make.

Why are you trying to tie societal break down, to economics?

That's a strange position to take. That somehow, if we eliminated international trade, that magically people would no longer die in auto accidents? Or cancer and heart disease?

Those are the top 3 causes of death in the US. Which of those, would magically be reduced by protectionism?

Even suicide and self harm, heroin and such... which of those would magically be reduced by protectionism?

How would being charged a higher price for all goods, make any of those causes of death reduced?

Or murder even. Murder and homocides drastically reduce life expectancy. How does protectionism reduce that?

Correct. Life span and economics are not directly connected.

The export of manufacturing jobs, combined with the flooding of our labor market has created long term wage stagnation for large portions of our working poor and middle class. This has led to economic pain, real economic pain that INDIRECTLY leads to, for example,

1. Lower income, which leads to higher rates of cancer and hearth disease.

2. Lower income, which leads to higher rates of risky behavior leading to drug abuse and alcoholism and various life shortening issues that come with those.

3. Broken families, which lead to suicide and drug abuse, both in the parents and in the children.

4. Lower incomes, which lead to lower rates of marriage, which leads to higher rates of risky behaviors.

There is zero evidence that the middle class has long term wage stagnation.
Moreover, if you are not happy with your wages, it is up to you the individual to do something of higher value.

If you as an individual refuse to do higher value work, then no amount of controls on labor or export of manufacturing jobs, is going to help that.

Moreover, manufacturing jobs are declining, with or without exporting of jobs.

As automation continues, the number of jobs in manufacturing will continue to decrease. This will happen, with or without, manufacturing outside the US.

1. Lower income, which leads to higher rates of cancer and hearth disease.

False. Cancer and heart disease is not caused by low wages.

2. Lower income, which leads to higher rates of risky behavior leading to drug abuse and alcoholism and various life shortening issues that come with those.

False. Risky behavior and drug abuse is not caused by low wages. In fact, the very opposite is true. Risk behavior and drug abuse, results in low wages, because people on drugs are lousy employees, and often can only get the lowest wage jobs, because they suck. As someone who has hired and fired people, and guarantee you I promoted people to higher wage positions because they were quality employees, and I can't count the number of people I fired because they were on drugs, and crap employees.

3. Broken families, which lead to suicide and drug abuse, both in the parents and in the children.

False. Suicide are more often of affluent people. Poor people are less likely to commit suicide.

False. Broken families are not caused by low wages. In fact the very reverse is often the case. As someone whose father does marriage counseling, it is more often that people in marriages with good jobs, often after divorce end up losing their jobs, specifically because the destruction of their home life, ends up damaging their performance at work.

1. Middle class wage stagnation is a given. Lower class wage stagnation is a given. YOur denial is silly.


2. Discussing policies to encourage wage growth is completely legitimate. YOur denial of this is not reasonable.

3. YOur pretense of not understanding that I was talking of indirect connections, is dismissed.

4. The connection between the decline in life spans and long term economic pain, has been discussed by medical authorities. Taking this into account, when making policy, is reasonable.

No, the fact.... FACT.... that wages are not static, is a proven by the evidence, which I already linked to.

It's not debatable.... it's an empirical fact that wages are not stagnate.

If you want me to look up the article and repost it, I'll be happy to do so.

Further, discussion the policies to encourage wage growth is ridiculous. A: they don't work. B: we have the highest standard of living in the world. Stop being a spoiled brat.

Moreover, for someone as ignorant as you, I don't really care what you claim to "dismiss" or not.

No, there is no connection between declining life span, and the economics of the united states. None. It's ridiculous to even attempt to make that connection, given the fact.... FACT.... that our standard of living is higher than anywhere else in the world.

1. YOur desire to move the goals posts from lower class and middle class wages to the average wages, which hides the breakdown, is noted and denied.


2. It is not ridiculous to discuss policy to encourage wage growth.

3. The hollowing out of the Manufacturing sector, the stagnation of wages, the loss of hope for a better life, these contribute to risky behaviors, which lead to early death. Your denial of this well known fact does not reflect well on you.

 

[Correll]

I'm 100% for it. Regardless we have to continue exports to maintain our status as world power, otherwise we'd give that status to China. If countries were to become isolated, then yes, no country would complete with the USA, we'd be set.

I think we should also end foreigners owning U.S. real estate. That said millennial's already screwed the pooch on that one. Many figured they were above property ownership. They didn't take into account they'll be paying the Chinese rent in the form of 5Kish by their 60th B-days.

Isolated countries fail economically.

To be fair, there has never been an isolated country on a scale of the US.

AND, as we seen to be destined to be fucked by any trading partner, isolation could be a competitive policy.


THe choice seems to be either be the world's *****, or take our ball and go home.

How do you mean? The USSR failed miserably. Pretty big country.

Failed because they tried to have a big empire AND we fought them.

Not because they were isolated.

Maybe we can ask Trump why he has not made his products here in US. What ever happened to the policy buy Americans hire Americans? Just saying.

if we made our products here. How can we compete overseas?

1. Sure. Go ask him.

2. Let's focus on competing in the AMERICAN market first. We are still the world's largest market. If everyone else wants to be a dick, then let's keep it for ourselves.

3. Once we do that, maybe we can talk to others about how we can set up some mutually beneficial trade.

 

[Andylusion]

I'm 100% for it. Regardless we have to continue exports to maintain our status as world power, otherwise we'd give that status to China. If countries were to become isolated, then yes, no country would complete with the USA, we'd be set.

I think we should also end foreigners owning U.S. real estate. That said millennial's already screwed the pooch on that one. Many figured they were above property ownership. They didn't take into account they'll be paying the Chinese rent in the form of 5Kish by their 60th B-days.

Isolated countries fail economically.

Oh, but we won't be isolated, once the manufacturing jobs are forced back on-shore...

We'll be exporting manufactured goods to others, again.

Sigh....

Do you not see the problem with your own logic? Do you think that any person, elsewhere in the world, is not thinking the exact same thing?

If you intend to use the power of government to impose protectionism to force manufacturing back into the US..... What do you think other countries will do?

They are going to put in place those exact same protectionist barriers against the US.

Again, just look at the Smoot-Hawley tariff in the 1930s.

Why didn't US exports go up? Why did US exports drop? Because all the countries that had tariffs levied against them, turned around and levied tariffs against the US.

The perfect example of this was the iron and steel tariffs.

So the US put in place tariffs on Iron ore. Canada put in place tariffs on steel. So the pittsburgh steel found itself paying massively high prices for iron ore because import tariffs on ore from Canada, and then found the price of steel crashed because one of the biggest demands for steel was exports that now had tariffs on steel from the US.

17 Months after the Smoot-Hawley protectionist tariffs were put in place, 11 different banks operating in Pittsburgh crashed and went insolvent.

Again, if you think we are going to have protectionism, and force companies to locate in the US, and all the other countries are going to be perfectly happy buying US exports... that is not a logical position to have. Other countries are going to do the same. And instead, you are going to destroy $2.4 Trillion in exports we make yearly. And not having imports is also going to destroy jobs.

They are already doing it to US. They have been for decades. We have been their ***** while they profit from ******* US.

The US is the third largest exporter in the world today. We are only the 3rd largest, if you include the European Union as one country. Otherwise, we're the 2nd largest.

Further, China is our forth largest buyer. But even that is misleading, because the 2nd and 3rd largest is Mexico and Canada, which is primarily defined by oil imports and exports to refineries.

If you exclude oil flowing in an out across the boarders with Mexico and Canada, That would leave the top 2 buyers of US exports as China and the EU. Which again requires you take the entire European Union, as one giant country. If you look at the EU as separate countries.....

The the number one, largest buyer of US produced goods is China.

The US is a huge exporter, and China is a huge buyer of US exports.

You claim that China has been doing this for decades? Then they really suck at doing it.

Very nice spin. I sure that there are many Free Trade Ideologues and people who make money off the status quo who will be happy to accept that perception of reality and pretend that everything is fine.


Meanwhile, our society is so fucked that our life spans are actually DROPPING.

Life span and economics are not directly connected.

That's a strange argument to make.

Why are you trying to tie societal break down, to economics?

That's a strange position to take. That somehow, if we eliminated international trade, that magically people would no longer die in auto accidents? Or cancer and heart disease?

Those are the top 3 causes of death in the US. Which of those, would magically be reduced by protectionism?

Even suicide and self harm, heroin and such... which of those would magically be reduced by protectionism?

How would being charged a higher price for all goods, make any of those causes of death reduced?

Or murder even. Murder and homocides drastically reduce life expectancy. How does protectionism reduce that?

Correct. Life span and economics are not directly connected.

The export of manufacturing jobs, combined with the flooding of our labor market has created long term wage stagnation for large portions of our working poor and middle class. This has led to economic pain, real economic pain that INDIRECTLY leads to, for example,

1. Lower income, which leads to higher rates of cancer and hearth disease.

2. Lower income, which leads to higher rates of risky behavior leading to drug abuse and alcoholism and various life shortening issues that come with those.

3. Broken families, which lead to suicide and drug abuse, both in the parents and in the children.

4. Lower incomes, which lead to lower rates of marriage, which leads to higher rates of risky behaviors.

There is zero evidence that the middle class has long term wage stagnation.
Moreover, if you are not happy with your wages, it is up to you the individual to do something of higher value.

If you as an individual refuse to do higher value work, then no amount of controls on labor or export of manufacturing jobs, is going to help that.

Moreover, manufacturing jobs are declining, with or without exporting of jobs.

As automation continues, the number of jobs in manufacturing will continue to decrease. This will happen, with or without, manufacturing outside the US.

1. Lower income, which leads to higher rates of cancer and hearth disease.

False. Cancer and heart disease is not caused by low wages.

2. Lower income, which leads to higher rates of risky behavior leading to drug abuse and alcoholism and various life shortening issues that come with those.

False. Risky behavior and drug abuse is not caused by low wages. In fact, the very opposite is true. Risk behavior and drug abuse, results in low wages, because people on drugs are lousy employees, and often can only get the lowest wage jobs, because they suck. As someone who has hired and fired people, and guarantee you I promoted people to higher wage positions because they were quality employees, and I can't count the number of people I fired because they were on drugs, and crap employees.

3. Broken families, which lead to suicide and drug abuse, both in the parents and in the children.

False. Suicide are more often of affluent people. Poor people are less likely to commit suicide.

False. Broken families are not caused by low wages. In fact the very reverse is often the case. As someone whose father does marriage counseling, it is more often that people in marriages with good jobs, often after divorce end up losing their jobs, specifically because the destruction of their home life, ends up damaging their performance at work.

1. Middle class wage stagnation is a given. Lower class wage stagnation is a given. YOur denial is silly.


2. Discussing policies to encourage wage growth is completely legitimate. YOur denial of this is not reasonable.

3. YOur pretense of not understanding that I was talking of indirect connections, is dismissed.

4. The connection between the decline in life spans and long term economic pain, has been discussed by medical authorities. Taking this into account, when making policy, is reasonable.

No, the fact.... FACT.... that wages are not static, is a proven by the evidence, which I already linked to.

It's not debatable.... it's an empirical fact that wages are not stagnate.

If you want me to look up the article and repost it, I'll be happy to do so.

Further, discussion the policies to encourage wage growth is ridiculous. A: they don't work. B: we have the highest standard of living in the world. Stop being a spoiled brat.

Moreover, for someone as ignorant as you, I don't really care what you claim to "dismiss" or not.

No, there is no connection between declining life span, and the economics of the united states. None. It's ridiculous to even attempt to make that connection, given the fact.... FACT.... that our standard of living is higher than anywhere else in the world.

1. YOur desire to move the goals posts from lower class and middle class wages to the average wages, which hides the breakdown, is noted and denied.


2. It is not ridiculous to discuss policy to encourage wage growth.

3. The hollowing out of the Manufacturing sector, the stagnation of wages, the loss of hope for a better life, these contribute to risky behaviors, which lead to early death. Your denial of this well known fact does not reflect well on you.

You never said anything about ignoring all wages, except the ones that for whatever reason, matter to you.

I don't care what you note, or don't note. If I indicated to you, that your ignorant based opinion of me or anything else, mattered to me, I do apologize.

2. It is not ridiculous to discuss policy to encourage wage growth.

Well given how many lies, denials, and arrogant pronouncements you have made... it is ridiculous to discuss this with you.

I posted clear evidence of my position. You have ignored it twice now. Equally you have not made an evidence backed claim yet.

To throw it back in your face.... "YOur desire to ignore evidence and provide none yourself, is noted and denied". Don't throw stones, and you won't get one back in your face.

3. The hollowing out of the Manufacturing sector

Hollowing out? Bull crap. No evidence of that whatsoever.

2019 was a record year in manufacturing. We produced more value for goods in 2019, than at any time in US history.

Further....

Manufacturing as a percentage share of real GDP, has been holding steady since the 1940s, at right around 12% on average.

There zero evidence that manufacturing in the US is being..... "hollowed out".

To throw it back in your face.... "YOur desire to ignore evidence and provide none yourself, is noted and denied". Don't throw stones, and you won't get one back in your face.

Is U.S. Manufacturing Really Declining?

The manufacturing sector’s share of U.S. jobs has fallen over time, but its output has kept pace with the U.S. economy in real terms.

www.stlouisfed.org

The only thing you can say, is that the percentage of employment in manufacturing has declined. Well that's going to happen anyway. That has nothing to do with trade.

That has to do with the cost of labor, being more expensive than the cost of automation.

Do you really think that if GoodYear brings their tire factory back, that they are going to build all their tires with hundreds of $50/hour laborers?

No, they are not. They are going to have a fully automated factory, employing at best, a dozen people, to hit the green start button, and then make sure nothing breaks.

If Apple Computer brings iPhones manufacturing back to the US, they are not going to employ dozens of guys, carefully putting the glass on the display.
They will have it fully automated with one guy, hitting a button.

So again... none of your protectionism, will bring any significant jobs to the low-skilled workers. In fact, I'd even say zero.

Zero jobs for the low-skill class. They are going to hire highly skilled maintenance workers, robotic engineers, assembly line engineers, and managers. They are not hiring Bob the line tech, who doesn't have a degree or any certifications, or anything.

So even the few jobs that would be brought back to the US, still wouldn't help any of the people you claim it would.

 

[Correll]

I'm 100% for it. Regardless we have to continue exports to maintain our status as world power, otherwise we'd give that status to China. If countries were to become isolated, then yes, no country would complete with the USA, we'd be set.

I think we should also end foreigners owning U.S. real estate. That said millennial's already screwed the pooch on that one. Many figured they were above property ownership. They didn't take into account they'll be paying the Chinese rent in the form of 5Kish by their 60th B-days.

Isolated countries fail economically.

Oh, but we won't be isolated, once the manufacturing jobs are forced back on-shore...

We'll be exporting manufactured goods to others, again.

Sigh....

Do you not see the problem with your own logic? Do you think that any person, elsewhere in the world, is not thinking the exact same thing?

If you intend to use the power of government to impose protectionism to force manufacturing back into the US..... What do you think other countries will do?

They are going to put in place those exact same protectionist barriers against the US.

Again, just look at the Smoot-Hawley tariff in the 1930s.

Why didn't US exports go up? Why did US exports drop? Because all the countries that had tariffs levied against them, turned around and levied tariffs against the US.

The perfect example of this was the iron and steel tariffs.

So the US put in place tariffs on Iron ore. Canada put in place tariffs on steel. So the pittsburgh steel found itself paying massively high prices for iron ore because import tariffs on ore from Canada, and then found the price of steel crashed because one of the biggest demands for steel was exports that now had tariffs on steel from the US.

17 Months after the Smoot-Hawley protectionist tariffs were put in place, 11 different banks operating in Pittsburgh crashed and went insolvent.

Again, if you think we are going to have protectionism, and force companies to locate in the US, and all the other countries are going to be perfectly happy buying US exports... that is not a logical position to have. Other countries are going to do the same. And instead, you are going to destroy $2.4 Trillion in exports we make yearly. And not having imports is also going to destroy jobs.

They are already doing it to US. They have been for decades. We have been their ***** while they profit from ******* US.

The US is the third largest exporter in the world today. We are only the 3rd largest, if you include the European Union as one country. Otherwise, we're the 2nd largest.

Further, China is our forth largest buyer. But even that is misleading, because the 2nd and 3rd largest is Mexico and Canada, which is primarily defined by oil imports and exports to refineries.

If you exclude oil flowing in an out across the boarders with Mexico and Canada, That would leave the top 2 buyers of US exports as China and the EU. Which again requires you take the entire European Union, as one giant country. If you look at the EU as separate countries.....

The the number one, largest buyer of US produced goods is China.

The US is a huge exporter, and China is a huge buyer of US exports.

You claim that China has been doing this for decades? Then they really suck at doing it.

Very nice spin. I sure that there are many Free Trade Ideologues and people who make money off the status quo who will be happy to accept that perception of reality and pretend that everything is fine.


Meanwhile, our society is so fucked that our life spans are actually DROPPING.

Life span and economics are not directly connected.

That's a strange argument to make.

Why are you trying to tie societal break down, to economics?

That's a strange position to take. That somehow, if we eliminated international trade, that magically people would no longer die in auto accidents? Or cancer and heart disease?

Those are the top 3 causes of death in the US. Which of those, would magically be reduced by protectionism?

Even suicide and self harm, heroin and such... which of those would magically be reduced by protectionism?

How would being charged a higher price for all goods, make any of those causes of death reduced?

Or murder even. Murder and homocides drastically reduce life expectancy. How does protectionism reduce that?

Correct. Life span and economics are not directly connected.

The export of manufacturing jobs, combined with the flooding of our labor market has created long term wage stagnation for large portions of our working poor and middle class. This has led to economic pain, real economic pain that INDIRECTLY leads to, for example,

1. Lower income, which leads to higher rates of cancer and hearth disease.

2. Lower income, which leads to higher rates of risky behavior leading to drug abuse and alcoholism and various life shortening issues that come with those.

3. Broken families, which lead to suicide and drug abuse, both in the parents and in the children.

4. Lower incomes, which lead to lower rates of marriage, which leads to higher rates of risky behaviors.

There is zero evidence that the middle class has long term wage stagnation.
Moreover, if you are not happy with your wages, it is up to you the individual to do something of higher value.

If you as an individual refuse to do higher value work, then no amount of controls on labor or export of manufacturing jobs, is going to help that.

Moreover, manufacturing jobs are declining, with or without exporting of jobs.

As automation continues, the number of jobs in manufacturing will continue to decrease. This will happen, with or without, manufacturing outside the US.

1. Lower income, which leads to higher rates of cancer and hearth disease.

False. Cancer and heart disease is not caused by low wages.

2. Lower income, which leads to higher rates of risky behavior leading to drug abuse and alcoholism and various life shortening issues that come with those.

False. Risky behavior and drug abuse is not caused by low wages. In fact, the very opposite is true. Risk behavior and drug abuse, results in low wages, because people on drugs are lousy employees, and often can only get the lowest wage jobs, because they suck. As someone who has hired and fired people, and guarantee you I promoted people to higher wage positions because they were quality employees, and I can't count the number of people I fired because they were on drugs, and crap employees.

3. Broken families, which lead to suicide and drug abuse, both in the parents and in the children.

False. Suicide are more often of affluent people. Poor people are less likely to commit suicide.

False. Broken families are not caused by low wages. In fact the very reverse is often the case. As someone whose father does marriage counseling, it is more often that people in marriages with good jobs, often after divorce end up losing their jobs, specifically because the destruction of their home life, ends up damaging their performance at work.

1. Middle class wage stagnation is a given. Lower class wage stagnation is a given. YOur denial is silly.


2. Discussing policies to encourage wage growth is completely legitimate. YOur denial of this is not reasonable.

3. YOur pretense of not understanding that I was talking of indirect connections, is dismissed.

4. The connection between the decline in life spans and long term economic pain, has been discussed by medical authorities. Taking this into account, when making policy, is reasonable.

No, the fact.... FACT.... that wages are not static, is a proven by the evidence, which I already linked to.

It's not debatable.... it's an empirical fact that wages are not stagnate.

If you want me to look up the article and repost it, I'll be happy to do so.

Further, discussion the policies to encourage wage growth is ridiculous. A: they don't work. B: we have the highest standard of living in the world. Stop being a spoiled brat.

Moreover, for someone as ignorant as you, I don't really care what you claim to "dismiss" or not.

No, there is no connection between declining life span, and the economics of the united states. None. It's ridiculous to even attempt to make that connection, given the fact.... FACT.... that our standard of living is higher than anywhere else in the world.

1. YOur desire to move the goals posts from lower class and middle class wages to the average wages, which hides the breakdown, is noted and denied.


2. It is not ridiculous to discuss policy to encourage wage growth.

3. The hollowing out of the Manufacturing sector, the stagnation of wages, the loss of hope for a better life, these contribute to risky behaviors, which lead to early death. Your denial of this well known fact does not reflect well on you.

You never said anything about ignoring all wages, except the ones that for whatever reason, matter to you.

I don't care what you note, or don't note. If I indicated to you, that your ignorant based opinion of me or anything else, mattered to me, I do apologize.

2. It is not ridiculous to discuss policy to encourage wage growth.

Well given how many lies, denials, and arrogant pronouncements you have made... it is ridiculous to discuss this with you.

I posted clear evidence of my position. You have ignored it twice now. Equally you have not made an evidence backed claim yet.

To throw it back in your face.... "YOur desire to ignore evidence and provide none yourself, is noted and denied". Don't throw stones, and you won't get one back in your face.

3. The hollowing out of the Manufacturing sector

Hollowing out? Bull crap. No evidence of that whatsoever.

View attachment 316424

2019 was a record year in manufacturing. We produced more value for goods in 2019, than at any time in US history.

Further....

View attachment 316426
Manufacturing as a percentage share of real GDP, has been holding steady since the 1940s, at right around 12% on average.

There zero evidence that manufacturing in the US is being..... "hollowed out".

To throw it back in your face.... "YOur desire to ignore evidence and provide none yourself, is noted and denied". Don't throw stones, and you won't get one back in your face.

Is U.S. Manufacturing Really Declining?

The manufacturing sector’s share of U.S. jobs has fallen over time, but its output has kept pace with the U.S. economy in real terms.

www.stlouisfed.org

The only thing you can say, is that the percentage of employment in manufacturing has declined. Well that's going to happen anyway. That has nothing to do with trade.

That has to do with the cost of labor, being more expensive than the cost of automation.

Do you really think that if GoodYear brings their tire factory back, that they are going to build all their tires with hundreds of $50/hour laborers?

No, they are not. They are going to have a fully automated factory, employing at best, a dozen people, to hit the green start button, and then make sure nothing breaks.

If Apple Computer brings iPhones manufacturing back to the US, they are not going to employ dozens of guys, carefully putting the glass on the display.
They will have it fully automated with one guy, hitting a button.

So again... none of your protectionism, will bring any significant jobs to the low-skilled workers. In fact, I'd even say zero.

Zero jobs for the low-skill class. They are going to hire highly skilled maintenance workers, robotic engineers, assembly line engineers, and managers. They are not hiring Bob the line tech, who doesn't have a degree or any certifications, or anything.

So even the few jobs that would be brought back to the US, still wouldn't help any of the people you claim it would.

1. Germany has twice the level of manufacturing employment we do, and they are not low tech, manual labor producers, wage slave producers. Trade policy matters.

2. When Trump was first elected, a lot of local manufacturers were flooded with calls from overseas exporters, looking to potentially move manufacturing to their sites, to avoid any tariffs that Trump might have slammed down. We have leverage we can use to get jobs to come back. Sure, Not "all" of them, but a lot of them.

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

and cheap labor from anywhere too

showing that, once again, Trump was correct

we need to make our own stuff and never be reliant on ANY other country for the things we need

that includes oil from the ME as well

LINK

American companies that produce essential goods in China should plan to shift their operations back to the United States or other Western countries, according to a senior Republican lawmaker.

“We're staring into a significant, significant crisis of supply chain,” Colorado Sen. Cory Gardner told the Washington Examiner. “Cheap labor or cheap manufacturing be damned if you are reliant on them for your life and livelihood.”

Gardner’s warning was spurred by the shortage of hospital masks in the United States, a dearth driven by Beijing’s refusal to allow American companies that make the products in China to ship them out of the country amid the coronavirus pandemic. And he’s not alone in that sentiment, raising the possibility that anger over China’s self-interested response to the coronavirus outbreak could produce one of the most dramatic alterations of global economics in decades.

“Because of the coronavirus problem, people are recognizing that any supply chain that has single points of failure is incredibly vulnerable,” the Heritage Foundation’s Dean Cheng, a senior research fellow in the organization’s Asian Studies Center, told the Washington Examiner. “China is going to be very concerned about decoupling, offshoring, [or any] redirection of investments out of China.”

New Balance
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A lot of new balance shoes made in america still use a lot of imported material ....

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Trade is fine but no more manufacturing in China.
We are building the Chinese Communist Partys military and tech sectors with American greed and it needs to stop. We are funding the worlds biggest army and congress needs to craft legislation to stop ALL manufacturing in China.

Also Trump needs to stop playing footsie with the Chinese president. No economic deal is worth the threat that China poses.

 

[keepitreal]

Trade is fine but no more manufacturing in China.
We are building the Chinese Communist Partys military and tech sectors with American greed and it needs to stop. We are funding the worlds biggest army and congress needs to craft legislation to stop ALL manufacturing in China.

Also Trump needs to stop playing footsie with the Chinese president. No economic deal is worth the threat that China poses.

Already addressed everything in your post on another thread
Except I disagree about trade, no trade with China...in or out...period
and no products made in other countries for Chinese owned businesses allowed into the U.S.

 

[shockedcanadian]

That is too drastic a step, certainly in the short term. Though economic consequences against China in some form is far more palatable now to citizens.

Most immediately, I hope the CIA and other trusted Western intelligence agencies aggressively look at China, the genesis of this virus and all the facts behind it.

Ignore politicians, ignore big business, ignore media, and just operate together in the most clandestine and cooperative manner possible to get to the bottom of this virus. First, they need facts, they need a full understanding of this. The global travel shutdown is going to make it MUCH harder to get the truth, but I have to believe truth will prevail.

No matter if man-made or if it came from a bat, there needs to be consequences. Consequences will vary in severity depending on what they find. We cannot have docile leaders anymore who shrug their shoulders, even in the face of their citizens lives being cut short. Trump is the ONLY leader in the West willing to call out the Communists. He joined by Taiwan and sometimes Japan and HK. It's astonishing.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Trade is fine but no more manufacturing in China.
We are building the Chinese Communist Partys military and tech sectors with American greed and it needs to stop. We are funding the worlds biggest army and congress needs to craft legislation to stop ALL manufacturing in China.

Also Trump needs to stop playing footsie with the Chinese president. No economic deal is worth the threat that China poses.

Already addressed everything in your post on another thread
Except I disagree about trade, no trade with China...in or out...period
and no products made in other countries for Chinese owned businesses allowed into the U.S.

I don't think we can cut trade ties. We don't have the products made here in enough quantities to sustain demand and prices would skyrocket as a result. Eventually maybe, but we can't do that yet.

 

[Siete]

US manufacturing IN CHINA needs to be banned. Period


this country would be bankrupt in the first 30 seconds if that happens -

 

[initforme]

We ensure american workers are paid at least double what Chinese workers make..if not triple.

 

[shockedcanadian]

We ensure american workers are paid at least double what Chinese workers make..if not triple.

No. The Communist system and currency devaluation ensures that Chinese worked are paid one half, if not, one third of American workers...

 

[Flopper]

Trade is fine but no more manufacturing in China.
We are building the Chinese Communist Partys military and tech sectors with American greed and it needs to stop. We are funding the worlds biggest army and congress needs to craft legislation to stop ALL manufacturing in China.

Also Trump needs to stop playing footsie with the Chinese president. No economic deal is worth the threat that China poses.

Already addressed everything in your post on another thread
Except I disagree about trade, no trade with China...in or out...period
and no products made in other countries for Chinese owned businesses allowed into the U.S.

Maybe we should wait until this Covid 19 shit is over. 80 percent of the active pharmaceutical ingredients imported into US come from China.

 

[B. Kidd]

Xi and his Commie chinks are loving the bind that they put our Country and most of the Free World in!
It's been well worth the collateral damage that he has inflicted on his own society!

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

Trade is fine but no more manufacturing in China.
We are building the Chinese Communist Partys military and tech sectors with American greed and it needs to stop. We are funding the worlds biggest army and congress needs to craft legislation to stop ALL manufacturing in China.

Also Trump needs to stop playing footsie with the Chinese president. No economic deal is worth the threat that China poses.

Do not get mad at what I am about to write but do you remember taking me to task about my opinion of China and how we should not be trading with them?

Remember how you told me about your Christmas Presents and you thought how stupid I was for being so defiant against any trade with China?

Now maybe you can understand why I hate them so much!

 

[B. Kidd]

Trade is fine but no more manufacturing in China.
We are building the Chinese Communist Partys military and tech sectors with American greed and it needs to stop. We are funding the worlds biggest army and congress needs to craft legislation to stop ALL manufacturing in China.

Also Trump needs to stop playing footsie with the Chinese president. No economic deal is worth the threat that China poses.

Do not get mad at what I am about to write but do you remember taking me to task about my opinion of China and how we should not be trading with them?

Remember how you told me about your Christmas Presents and you thought how stupid I was for being so defiant against any trade with China?

Now maybe you can understand why I hate them so much!

It ain't the 1st time Grandpa murked himself.

 

[Snouter]

President Trump was doing his best to encourage manufacturing to move to the USA, but in all honesty, with the demographics of the labor force in the USA today (lower IQ, illiterate, morbidly obese, etc.), there would be quality control issues, theft, etc. This is not like when America was great, which was generally pre-1960's. Music was at its height in the late 60's of course.