censorship good for american morale?

[spillmind]

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3745288

i don't agree:

as quoted from dondougla:

the footage of the dead returning from the Vietnam War turned the American public against the war. Administrations have been very conscious of this since then. That's why these images are censored during wartime. The numbers are very abstract when you can't see the graphic reality of death.

CNN never reports the number of innocent civilians killed in Afghanistan either. The American public would have a problem with more than 20 other innocent lives being taken in the name of one American... I would like to believe.

The general North American public would be shocked at the information that is filtered from them. Our decisions are manipulated through the information we don't receive.

 

[jimnyc]

There just isn't a need to glamorize death by videotape. Casualties are available from the government and even readily available on their websites.

The only purpose this would serve is to further advance the agenda of the wacky liberals.

 

[janeeng]

Should we have displayed all the dead bodies retrieved from the twin towers? the pentagon? PA??? Why not display them then? you can say there is no difference there, but I seem to think it's all the same! We know soldiers and people are dying, we don't have to see them to prove that!

 

[spillmind]

what is with this 'liberal' thing? it's driving me nuts! you don't have to be liberal to see how much all of this stinks to high hell! it's common sense, people!

i'm convinced it's a blanket cop-out when the argument runs thin. nothing else.

i for one, agree with janeen- they are no different from the 9-11 attacks, and yes, the coffins should be shown for the atrocities they are, no matter how you want to sugar coat anything!

deatn is death and should be seen for what it is. trying to hide it away, or reduce it to numbers is a disgrace to those fallen.

 

[jimnyc]

deatn is death and should be seen for what it is. trying to hide it away, or reduce it to numbers is a disgrace to those fallen.

No, what would be a disgrace is using the coffins as a means to solidify a point. The public knows the truth concerning the amount of coalition casualties, there's no need to sensationalize it.

what is with this 'liberal' thing? it's driving me nuts! you don't have to be liberal to see how much all of this stinks to high hell! it's common sense, people!

And common sense dictates that the bodies of US soldiers get transported with the highest degree of dignity.

 

[spillmind]

while people like you may be well aware of the happenings, and okay with it all at the same time-

i would argue that even the most staunch couch potato bushie who watches faux news and msnbc all day would think twice with a visual.

most americans don't even have the attention span for boards like this.

and i am NOT talking about 'sensationaling' or 'glamourizing'-

i'm talking about the truth of the matter, and it is very VERY ugly.
why the need to hide it? respect? i respectfuly disagree. i don't want the government determining what is relevant for me to see.
their track record of late is not very impressive at all.

 

[jimnyc]

i would argue that even the most staunch couch potato bushie who watches faux news and msnbc all day would think twice with a visual.

most americans don't even have the attention span for boards like this.

People don't deserve video feedback just because they are too lazy or ignorant to find out the facts.

why the need to hide it?

What exactly is being hidden? Are the numbers of casualties not readily available as I stated earlier?

respect?

Yes, the deceased deserve the same amount of respect that any other US citizen would demand. How would you feel if someone came sneaking into a funeral of a loved one of yours and decided to tape it? This is simply a matter of granting privacy and dignity to the fallen soldiers and their families.

i don't want the government determining what is relevant for me to see.

What if the soldier wished not to be paraded around in his coffin as a statistic? Why trample on the fallen soldiers just to make a point? Do you have ANY respect for our military, or more specifically, our fallen soldiers?

 

[dijetlo]

Cool thread, guys. I thought all the posts were compelling. I would have to side with Jim and Janeeng on this one though, the question of using viceral images to garner support for a political position is counter productive, not to mention somewhat dishonest. If you would consider, Spill, how you felt about GWB playing carrier pilot and why you thought that to be singularly innapropriate considering the gravity of the matters at hand, you can understand that because I agree with you about that, I have to disagree with you about this.

 

[spillmind]

'Yes, the deceased deserve the same amount of respect that any other US citizen would demand. How would you feel if someone came sneaking into a funeral of a loved one of yours and decided to tape it? This is simply a matter of granting privacy and dignity to the fallen soldiers and their families.'

your analagy here is lacking, there are different circumstances, and these have very real implications on every american ans iraqis lives at present. if someone in my family died and it was relevant to such a cause, you better believe there would be press there to catch it! why not?!

'What if the soldier wished not to be paraded around in his coffin as a statistic? Why trample on the fallen soldiers just to make a point? Do you have ANY respect for our military, or more specifically, our fallen soldiers?'

ok, you are really reaching on this one. you would need a mass joint (grim) statement on this... and i really wonder how they would view it as the living.

i respect our people doing their jobs in iraq, but i have ZERO respect for the politicians waging this 'war'!! what have i *ever* posted to make you think differently?

and if you think mere numbers carry the same gravity as a five second clip of a fraction of the bodies, you are sadly mistaked. who are you to judge if that visual is appropriate or not?!

why not report it as it happens? you are trying to make a blanket statement for all those fallen, and i am just not buying it. how would you feel if an equal amount WANTED us to see that footage?

my government is not something i look to to be my moral guiding light, and i hope you don't!

 

[jimnyc]

you are trying to make a blanket statement for all those fallen, and i am just not buying it. how would you feel if an equal amount WANTED us to see that footage?

Here lies the problem. It's not a matter of who wants to see it and who doesn't, it's a simple matter of respect for the deceased. Your need for visual stimuli doesn't supersede the need to give soldiers killed in action their dignity.

 

[Amras]

I have a question.
I heard a few times over the past 2 weeks that the american media censor themselves concerning the display of coffins on TV.

Has anyone seen coffins or dead american soldiers on TV lately?

 

[spillmind]

i mean no disrepect to them, just the opposite. their deaths should be honored, right? even if i don't believe in the cause, i think they did their jobs to the best of their ability, and did it well! there should be no dispute over this topic.

using your logic, where would you 'stop' the censorship? who dictates what we should be able to see and why?

you believe all the truth is out there on the web? i tend to disagree.

 

[jimnyc]

using your logic, where would you 'stop' the censorship? who dictates what we should be able to see and why?

Why not grab your camcorder, go to your nearest hospital & start filming some surgeries? When done there ask them for directions to the morgue so that you can get a few clips there.

After they laugh at you and whoop your ass, are you going to cry censorship to them? You just don't have access to everything in this world, and thats for good reason. It's called respect for the families and victims.

You're now trying to stretch the debate into censorship in general. The discussion was about whether or not fallen soldiers need to be videotaped and aired on national TV for all to see.

you believe all the truth is out there on the web? i tend to disagree.

I stated that the numbers of casualties in Iraq are readily available on the net. Stop trying to twist my words! Do you disagree with the daily numbers put up daily on the governments pages? And tell us how showing a bunch of coffins being loaded onto a plane will prove the numbers right or wrong.

 

[janeeng]

I am not sure what you will get out of seeing coffins of soldiers to begin with! I think it's pretty sick - you think that's going to change everybody's mind about the war??? You think that will stop a future war? no way!!! like I said before, we all know that soldiers are dying there, we don't need to see their bodies being carried out in a coffin, what does it justify!!! a morbid mind maybe!

 

[Amras]

I am not sure what you will get out of seeing coffins of soldiers to begin with! I think it's pretty sick - you think that's going to change everybody's mind about the war??? You think that will stop a future war? no way!!! like I said before, we all know that soldiers are dying there, we don't need to see their bodies being carried out in a coffin, what does it justify!!! a morbid mind maybe!

I agree with most of what you say.
But I do believe that such images would be very powerful and a lot of people would change their mind about the war, if they would see such pictures on a weekly basis. Even if such pictures contain no new information. Images can generate an emotional response.

Spillmind asked an interesting question: Is censorship good for american morale? Without prejudice I would say yes. Spillmind gives us the classical example of the Vietnam War, the US army lost no big combat during the entire conflict, it lost the war at home.
There is a causal relationship between bad news and morale. It's sad but that's what those terrorists try to do, break your morale.


P.S. I meant no offense to the soldiers that died in combat.

P.P.S. I'm not pleading for any kind of censorship. Nothing is easier than self-deceit.

 

[spillmind]

whoa

'Casualties are available from the government and even readily available on their websites.'

i took as meaning that if you want to really know how many soldiers died, go and look it up....

hence:

'you believe all the truth is out there on the web?'

man, and they call *me* sensitive

'Why not grab your camcorder, go to your nearest hospital & start filming some surgeries?'

ok- jim 1) i do NOT mean to disrespect ANYBODY let alone people trying to do their job in a very dangerous situation. 2) just as i had mentioned before there is a CONTEXT involved. i think you are simply not seeing this without your bais of a staunch 'war in iraq' supporter.

if you take a little gander outside the states and watch some of their news channels- especially of late- it's some pretty graphic shit! it's all very real, and i think that the media/government do not place more weight on the tremendous amounts of loss of life.
i argue our media is too sugar coated for its own health. the people are generally less informed, voter apathy is at an all time high, times are tough, despite anything you might hear.

i do not wish to take advantage of anyone's death for my own agenda, that would be bush2004

i see how you can argue that it is disrespectful to the people's families, i'll agree with you on that and leave that at that.

 

[Bry]

i see how you can argue that it is disrespectful to the people's families, i'll agree with you on that and leave that at that.

I'll disagree.

Coffins should not be censored. I do not say that because i think they should be used as anti-war-in-Iraq propaganda, I say that because I think that a society that chooses to go to war should not have the images of the consequences hidden from them. We're all grown-ups, if we can send the bombers, we can handle the coffins.

As for disrespect to the families of our fallen soldiers, that is for the families and the families alone to decide. I'm absolutely positive that many of those families would not have the coffins of their sons hidden. To the contrary. Note that that statement is completely different from having actual funeral ceremonies barraged by camera crews.

Evidently, censorship is good for American moral, and that is shown not only by the censorship of coffins being offloaded from airplanes, but also by bogus inflation of the threat of WMDs. The administrations behavior throughout this affair can only be characterized as grossly opaque.

 

[Monty Carlo]

Originally posted by jimnyc
No, what would be a disgrace is using the coffins as a means to solidify a point. The public knows the truth concerning the amount of coalition casualties, there's no need to sensationalize it.

It seems to me that the coffins wrapped in American flags can make their own solid point. The 'truth' is a lot more than a number of the tallied dead. Democracy is all about citizen participation in government, and knowledge about our sometimes-pigheaded foreign policy.

And common sense dictates that the bodies of US soldiers get transported with the highest degree of dignity.

Absolutely. That's why we should never let them slip from our memory

 

[jimnyc]

Coffins should not be censored. I do not say that because i think they should be used as anti-war-in-Iraq propaganda, I say that because I think that a society that chooses to go to war should not have the images of the consequences hidden from them. We're all grown-ups, if we can send the bombers, we can handle the coffins.

Just because someone believed in a cause enough to vocally support it, or voted for those that initiated the invasion, doesn't mean they need to have consequences rubbed into their faces. I think people are fully aware that people die in war.

As for disrespect to the families of our fallen soldiers, that is for the families and the families alone to decide. I'm absolutely positive that many of those families would not have the coffins of their sons hidden. To the contrary. Note that that statement is completely different from having actual funeral ceremonies barraged by camera crews.

How positive are you? Positive enough to find commentary or an article showing that families of fallen soldiers prefer the coffins to be shown?

And they aren't "hidden", they are just being handled in an appropriate manner. They are being treated with dignity. They will receive the American flag draped over their coffin and viewing will be appropriate during funeral processions. Any demand to see death on video or coffins other than that is solely to provide an agenda or to further a point. I can give a rats ass about public perception, whether it would help or hinder morale, these people shouldn't be used for either purpose.

 

[Bry]

I would argue that they do need to have their faces rubbed in the images, and that there is a big difference between the concept of being at war, and being confronted with the images. Perhaps just an irreconcilable difference of opinion.

And I don't need commentary or articles to back up my opinion. I have family there, and I really wish they weren't there, and if it happens that one of my family should die, I would want the American public fully cognizant of the family member they had robbed me of. To my mind, nothing could be more appropriate and dignified.

To be fair, I should acknowledge that I am not the father or spouse of any of them, and it would not be my opinion that counted.