Cardinal: remove "jesus is bastard" from Talmud!

[The Rabbi]

Actually reform Jews believe in the Talmud.

I am happy to share what Jewish believe but not to debate what they are with those who have no knowledge about Judaism other than what they find on sites that utterly distort them for their own sordid purposes.

No they dont. They do not accept Torah she bal peh.
They don't accept Torah she b'ksav either but thats another issue.

There is no other Torah. That's both of them.

They accept them. They just don't follow them as strictly as the conservative and orthodox. They modernize them.

Here is a link that gives an overview of what Reform believes.

My Jewish Learning: Reform Halakhic Texts

No, that is incorrect.

 

[CMike]

Go to the link and you can read what reform jews believe and what they don't believe.

 

[The Rabbi]

Go to the link and you can read what reform jews believe and what they don't believe.

I know very well and I don't have to read it off some link.
By Reform they believe in the individual as the ultimate arbiter of right and wrong. There is no mitzva, no halakha that is not subject to that. Everyone's opinion is ultimately as good as anyone else's. The past does not provide a veto on the present.
This view is 100% the opposite of Orthodoxy, or Torah for that matter.

 

[CMike]

That's not what they believe. It's up to them to say what they believe. It's their beliefs. If you read the link you will see what they believe.

 

[The Rabbi]

That's not what they believe. It's up to them to say what they believe. It's their beliefs. If you read the link you will see what they believe.

Exactly. You are proving my point. The individual is the ultimate arbiter of right and wrong.
This makes them kofrim and minim.

 

[CMike]

That's not what I said. I said people decide themselves what they believe. They define themselves.

Reform themselves state that they believe both the written and oral torah. They, according to them, make it "contemporary".

 

[The Rabbi]

That's not what I said. I said people decide themselves what they believe. They define themselves.

Reform themselves state that they believe both the written and oral torah. They, according to them, make it "contemporary".

No, this is not true.
Here is teh statement of principles 1999:

We are committed to the ongoing study of the whole array of (mitzvot) and to the fulfillment of those that address us as individuals and as a community.

The fulfillment of those that address us as individuals. That means those that do not address us as individuals can be ignored. That is the whole point of Reform:

Within each area of Jewish observance Reform Jews are called upon to confront the claims of Jewish tradition, however differently perceived, and to exercise their individual autonomy, choosing and creating on the basis of commitment and knowledge.

CCAR - Reform Judaism: A Centenary Perspective

 

[CMike]

This is from your own link...

Torah -- Torah results from the relationship between God and the Jewish people. The records of our earliest confrontations are uniquely important to us. Lawgivers and prophets, historians and poets gave us a heritage whose study is a religious imperative and whose practice is our chief means to holiness. Rabbis and teachers, philosophers and mystics, gifted Jews in every age amplified the Torah tradition. For millennia, the creation of Torah has not ceased and Jewish creativity in our time is adding to the chain of tradition.

I think it's great that reform, conservative, and orthodox, all agree on the same principles.

Christians are very confused. They can't agree upon themselves, what the focal point of their religion, jesus, is. They don't know if he was a man or a god. They can't decide if he is god or the son of god. They can't agree on whether their is a "trinity" or the significance of one if there is one.

Jews, for the most part, agree on the basic priniciples; one G-D, Torah, the importance of Israel, etc. This is our strength.

 

[ABikerSailor]

The Catholics don't believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is a bastard, because they think He is the Messiah, therefore it offends them.

The Jews don't believe that Yeshua is the Messiah because He didn't fulfill all the prophecies, however, according to their language, if your parents were not married at the time of your birth, you are considered to be a bastard.

I see the solution for this. If the Catholics will stop referring to Yeshua (Jesus) as the Messiah, then the Jews will stop referring to Him as a bastard.

Simple enough?

 

[The Rabbi]

Except we don't agree. At all.
Ask a Reform Jew and an Orthodox Jew to define:
G-d
Jew
Torah
Mitzvah
Moshiach
Resurrection of the Dead

and you will get two very different answers.
Reform use the language of tradition but mangle it beyond recognition. Sort of like Liberals.

 

[CMike]

They agree on the general principles. They should make the laws "contemporary". That is where the parting is.

I think for the areas that you mentioned reform would agree with orthodox.

 

[The Rabbi]

They agree on the general principles. They should make the laws "contemporary". That is where the parting is.

I think for the areas that you mentioned reform would agree with orthodox.

Hard of reading?
No, they don't agree. Their worldview is completely different. Their concerns are completely different.
There is more agreement between Orthodoxy and Islam than there is between Orthodox and Reform. And there is more agreement between Reform and Episcopalianism than between Orthodoxy and Reform.
The fact that Reform use words familiar from the tradition does not change this any.

 

[CMike]

I completely disagree.

There is enough people here who attack jews. Jews should at least be united. I, am not reform.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvxgagJ_HvQ]YouTube - ‫קזבלן - כול×*ו יהודים (Kazablan - Kulanu Yehudim)‬‎[/ame]

 

[The Rabbi]

I completely disagree.

There is enough people here who attack jews. Jews should at least be united. I, am not reform.

I agree plenty of people attack Jews. That is not a reason to paper over the very real differences of the different movements.
But let's consider unity. Does unity mean we should all be the same? No, clearly not. Otherwise Gd would not have created individuals.
So what is it?
Unity means unity of purpose. In the desert the Jews moved together in tribal affiliation. But they all had the aron in the center. Whether they were Levites or some other tribe they all had Torah as the center of their existence and their being was devoted to carrying out the tasks they had to further that end.
But Reform rejects that. Their purpose is not fulfilling mitzvos but undergoing some journey of personal discovery. Yet they want unity. And by unity they mean everyone else telling them that what they are doing is okey dokey. Except it is not okey dokey. And its results speak for themselves.

 

[CMike]

Your own link contradicts what you say.

It says that reform jews believe in:

The Torah

The state of israel and its importance to jews

Mitzvahs.

Etc.

Please read the link that you posted.

 

[amrchaos]

The prominent cardinal of Chicago has called the jews in an open speech to remove indecent insults from talmud against Jesus!

Cardinal to Jews: Nix ancient texts calling Jesus 'bastard'

Says Catholics could revise prayer calling for conversion to Christianity

An influential cardinal of the Catholic Church in America has suggested Catholics would be willing to adjust a traditional Catholic prayer that calls for Jews to be converted if Jews review Talmudic references to Jesus as a "bastard."

The comments come from Cardinal Francis George of the Archdiocese of Chicago, and referenced a particular prayer used by some parishes and priests during Good Friday mass.

It was reported by John L. Allen Jr. in the National Catholic Reporter.

The issue involves an Old Missal used during Good Friday liturgy that calls for the conversion of the Jews to Christianity.

He said the reference "can" be changed, and "I suspect it probably will be, because the intention is to be sure that our prayers are not offensive to the Jewish people who are our ancestors in the faith."
Cardinal to Jews: Nix ancient texts calling Jesus 'bastard'

it's time to wake up and revise this racist shiting book and not printing it!

Quick question

Is Jesus John's Blood relative or not.

If not--then Jesus is bastard(or un-official bastard). Mary was married to John, not the lord.

"Is Jesus a bastard?" is a profound question of Christian faith. Was he or was he not born in wedlock and his mother to his father??

Look on the Bright side---our president is a bastard. Who complains about that?

 

[CMike]

The Talmud is a terrible document that has not served anyone very well, Jew and none Jew, do not take my word for it look into the teachings. The Talmud is a much later writing than the Torah and not universally accepted in Judaism. The Ethiopian Jews have not accepted the Talmud and regard the Torah as the most Holy work. Hopefully the Ethiopians will never embrace the Talmud. Judaism weighs in on Catholicism so the Talmudic teachings should be not be considered of limits, on the contrary, one can learn much from this viewpoint.

The oral law (talmud & misnah) is a very important component of judaism.

The oral law is there to serve non jews. It's there to serve jews. Without the oral law the written law wouldn't be able to be executed.

These critics of the Talmud are people who are utterly ignorant about what the Talmud is, it's importance, and what it says.

It's kind of like me saying the NT is a terrible document, which hasn't served anyone well, chrisitan or non-christian.

It's your religion you can decide which document is important to you in your religion. As a jew I have no credible right to tell you what is important in your religion.

 

[Ryan]

Ryan are you Jewish ?

If not why do you think you know my religion better than me? I'm not going to debate what Jewish beliefs with someone who has no clue what they are.

There is no such thing as a heavenly father. Joseph wasn't his biological father. His actual father is unknown thus the term is accurate.

Nope, I'm not Jewish and I made no assumptions on whether you were Jewish or not, nor did I make assumptions on your understanding of Judaism.

I asked for the definition you were applying that made "bastard" a "correct" term to apply to Jesus. Do you have a source that defines bastard using the terms "biological father"?

Since Joseph and Mary were married at the time of the birth of Jesus you have to provide a source that specifies that bastard is a term applied to a child that has a non biological parent, regardless of marital status.

All the definitions I have seen of "bastard" are based on marital status and the etymology of the term would be based in ME and OFr, not Hebrew. Biological status has only become possible to establish with certainty through modern technology. Either prove me wrong with a definition that specifies biological parenthood is necessary or kindly admit that you were wrong in stating that "bastard" is a correct definition.

 

[The Rabbi]

Your own link contradicts what you say.

It says that reform jews believe in:

The Torah

The state of israel and its importance to jews

Mitzvahs.

Etc.

Please read the link that you posted.

I have read it.
No they dont agree with that. Their defition of Torah is not our definition. Their definition of mitzvas is not our definition. They use the same words but mean something completely different. It is like Christianity.

 

[Ryan]

The Talmud is a terrible document that has not served anyone very well, Jew and none Jew, do not take my word for it look into the teachings. The Talmud is a much later writing than the Torah and not universally accepted in Judaism. The Ethiopian Jews have not accepted the Talmud and regard the Torah as the most Holy work. Hopefully the Ethiopians will never embrace the Talmud. Judaism weighs in on Catholicism so the Talmudic teachings should be not be considered of limits, on the contrary, one can learn much from this viewpoint.

The oral law (talmud & misnah) is a very important component of judaism.

The oral law is there to serve non jews. It's there to serve jews. Without the oral law the written law wouldn't be able to be executed.

These critics of the Talmud are people who are utterly ignorant about what the Talmud is, it's importance, and what it says.

It's kind of like me saying the NT is a terrible document, which hasn't served anyone well, chrisitan or non-christian.

It's your religion you can decide which document is important to you in your religion. As a jew I have no credible right to tell you what is important in your religion.

During the life of Moses, Hebrew was not a written language. Therefore the two stone tablets could not have been written in Hebrew. Most like Egyptian Hieroglyphics would have been used. An oral tradition makes sense but also serves as a reason for suspicion especially with generations of tension from both sides. I have seen writings attributed to the Talmud that I find hard to believe that anyone would embrace. I find a writer Michael Hoffman interesting but I still have to doubt some of what he has written on the Talmud because it seems to terrible to believe. Some responses to his book reviews are supposedly by Jewish people that claim he is correct.