Captialism vs. Socialism: What Happens When ??????

[auditor0007]

With all of our current economic woes, it is understandable how everyone has tunnel vision as to how to fix things now. However, we have longer term problems that few people even realize.

Captialism, which I am all for, is based on profit and a growing economy. Throughout history, the economy has grown steadily, helping to create new jobs and new wealth for many people. If we look at the actual rate of growth, for the most part, there is a direct correlation to the growth of our population.

Keeping that in mind, we must realize two things. First, we know that the growth rate in population is slowing worldwide. Some countries are already beginning to show decreasing populations. Here in the US, our population is expected to grow to around 440 million by 2050, mostly due to immigration. Our current birthrate is only high enough to sustain our current population.

Here is my point. At some point, population growth will stop. It has to at some point. This planet cannot support a continually growing population. We don't have the natural resources to do so. Most models predict that we will top out around 9 billion worldwide, and then the population will begin to decrease.

We have to assume this will eventually happen. So, once it does, how do we continue to grow the economy without an increasing population? Capitalism feeds off of the fact that the pie continually grows bigger, but that is actually based on the population growing bigger. Change course to a declining population or a set population, how do we then grow the economy?

When we reach this point, the pie will no longer be growing. Will we then change our economic views to those of trying to provide everyone a decent way of life, or will the wealthy then try to control the entire pie? If the choice is to try to control the entire pie, can you see where this will lead?

I don't have any answers here, but I'm curious to hear what others think. This isn't likely to hit us during our lifetime, but it will most likely hit our children or grandchildren. What do you think will happen?

 

[Bern80]

With all of our current economic woes, it is understandable how everyone has tunnel vision as to how to fix things now. However, we have longer term problems that few people even realize.

Captialism, which I am all for, is based on profit and a growing economy. Throughout history, the economy has grown steadily, helping to create new jobs and new wealth for many people. If we look at the actual rate of growth, for the most part, there is a direct correlation to the growth of our population.

Keeping that in mind, we must realize two things. First, we know that the growth rate in population is slowing worldwide. Some countries are already beginning to show decreasing populations. Here in the US, our population is expected to grow to around 440 million by 2050, mostly due to immigration. Our current birthrate is only high enough to sustain our current population.

Here is my point. At some point, population growth will stop. It has to at some point. This planet cannot support a continually growing population. We don't have the natural resources to do so. Most models predict that we will top out around 9 billion worldwide, and then the population will begin to decrease.

We have to assume this will eventually happen. So, once it does, how do we continue to grow the economy without an increasing population? Capitalism feeds off of the fact that the pie continually grows bigger, but that is actually based on the population growing bigger. Change course to a declining population or a set population, how do we then grow the economy?

When we reach this point, the pie will no longer be growing. Will we then change our economic views to those of trying to provide everyone a decent way of life, or will the wealthy then try to control the entire pie? If the choice is to try to control the entire pie, can you see where this will lead?

I don't have any answers here, but I'm curious to hear what others think. This isn't likely to hit us during our lifetime, but it will most likely hit our children or grandchildren. What do you think will happen?

My answer would that perhaps the premise is false. Yes population increased right along with our economy, but is that why it increased? I'm not so sure. The economy is based on supply and demand and companies spring up to meet demands. My guess is that while yes, the population increased and that probably is a in economic growth, what also happened is more businesses sprang up to offer a wider variety of goods and services than had previously been available as well, so the economy increased that way is well. Demand breaks down all kinds of different ways. Along financial status, along geography, demographics, etc. Those I beleive are all reasons why our economy has grown as well.

 

[FistyTheBadger]

With all of our current economic woes, it is understandable how everyone has tunnel vision as to how to fix things now. However, we have longer term problems that few people even realize.

Captialism, which I am all for, is based on profit and a growing economy. Throughout history, the economy has grown steadily, helping to create new jobs and new wealth for many people. If we look at the actual rate of growth, for the most part, there is a direct correlation to the growth of our population.

Keeping that in mind, we must realize two things. First, we know that the growth rate in population is slowing worldwide. Some countries are already beginning to show decreasing populations. Here in the US, our population is expected to grow to around 440 million by 2050, mostly due to immigration. Our current birthrate is only high enough to sustain our current population.

Here is my point. At some point, population growth will stop. It has to at some point. This planet cannot support a continually growing population. We don't have the natural resources to do so. Most models predict that we will top out around 9 billion worldwide, and then the population will begin to decrease.

We have to assume this will eventually happen. So, once it does, how do we continue to grow the economy without an increasing population? Capitalism feeds off of the fact that the pie continually grows bigger, but that is actually based on the population growing bigger. Change course to a declining population or a set population, how do we then grow the economy?

When we reach this point, the pie will no longer be growing. Will we then change our economic views to those of trying to provide everyone a decent way of life, or will the wealthy then try to control the entire pie? If the choice is to try to control the entire pie, can you see where this will lead?

I don't have any answers here, but I'm curious to hear what others think. This isn't likely to hit us during our lifetime, but it will most likely hit our children or grandchildren. What do you think will happen?

Capitalism is suitable for all populations over 100.

 

[Agnapostate]

I think you're ignoring the fundamental purpose of economic activity in a socialist economy, which is not necessarily economic "growth" for some, but desirable socioeconomic circumstances for all.

 

[dilloduck]

Along the same lines I'm a bit curious how consumerism is going to disguised to fit in with environmental protection !

 

[editec]

With all of our current economic woes, it is understandable how everyone has tunnel vision as to how to fix things now. However, we have longer term problems that few people even realize.

Bet your ass we do. They're trying to put on a brave face, but the master class is shitting their pants about how they've allowed things to get out of hand.

Captialism, which I am all for, is based on profit and a growing economy. Throughout history, the economy has grown steadily, helping to create new jobs and new wealth for many people. If we look at the actual rate of growth, for the most part, there is a direct correlation to the growth of our population.

Asute observation...that's why the gold standard won't work, BTW.

Keeping that in mind, we must realize two things. First, we know that the growth rate in population is slowing worldwide. Some countries are already beginning to show decreasing populations. Here in the US, our population is expected to grow to around 440 million by 2050, mostly due to immigration. Our current birthrate is only high enough to sustain our current population.

Minus the influx of legal and illegal immigrants, the USA reached zero-pupulation growth in the late 60s, or so Ive been informed.

Here is my point. At some point, population growth will stop. It has to at some point. This planet cannot support a continually growing population. We don't have the natural resources to do so. Most models predict that we will top out around 9 billion worldwide, and then the population will begin to decrease.

I think that's likely...and what does that mean in an economy based on continuous growth of demand?

We have to assume this will eventually happen. So, once it does, how do we continue to grow the economy without an increasing population? Capitalism feeds off of the fact that the pie continually grows bigger, but that is actually based on the population growing bigger. Change course to a declining population or a set population, how do we then grow the economy?

ESPECIALLY since our economic system is based on a scarcity model (which we haven't had in 150 years) AND we as yet are unwilling to SHARE THE WEALTH with most people (which would drive up demand)

When we reach this point, the pie will no longer be growing. Will we then change our economic views to those of trying to provide everyone a decent way of life, or will the wealthy then try to control the entire pie? If the choice is to try to control the entire pie, can you see where this will lead?

I doubt it. The master class would rather starve a couple billion people so they can keep playing the same games they've been playing since the 1860s.

I don't have any answers here, but I'm curious to hear what others think. This isn't likely to hit us during our lifetime, but it will most likely hit our children or grandchildren. What do you think will happen?

You are asking EXACTLY the right macro-economic question, that's for damned sure.

 

[Zoomie1980]

My answer would that perhaps the premise is false. Yes population increased right along with our economy, but is that why it increased? I'm not so sure. The economy is based on supply and demand and companies spring up to meet demands. My guess is that while yes, the population increased and that probably is a in economic growth, what also happened is more businesses sprang up to offer a wider variety of goods and services than had previously been available as well, so the economy increased that way is well. Demand breaks down all kinds of different ways. Along financial status, along geography, demographics, etc. Those I beleive are all reasons why our economy has grown as well.

Economies have grown mostly due to ever more new goods and services fueled mostly by new technology. Most of today's economy in the first world is based on goods and services that didn't exist 25 years ago. Virtually NONE of it existed 100 years ago.

The other point, the limit of human population growth, we are very close to it right now. Once we hit that point, mortality must equal or exceed birth rates. It's simply the limit of nature to provide. There are going to be major famines in parts of the world that continue to have high birth rates and those numbers will dwarf anything we've ever seen to date, perhaps as many as a billion people will starve to death in the next 50 years as the planet forces humans to limit their population to what the world will support.