Capitalism is NOT Democratic: Democracy is NOT Capitalist

[georgephillip]

How do secondary markets in stocks, for instance, exploit productive labor. Be specific.

Dividend payouts.
Stock buybacks.
Board of Directors.

 

[georgephillip]

Nope. We need to stop government from interfering in the economy period

Someone will control the economy.
Aristocrats and the Divine Right of Kings have shown they're always available.
Is there another alternative beside democracy?

 

[georgephillip]

What's your point? Are you claiming he did promise to fundamentally change America?

Fundamental enough?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Dividend payouts.
Stock buybacks.
Board of Directors.

How do any of those exploit productive labor? Be specific.

 

[georgephillip]

Can you name anyone before 1800 who wasn't a racist?

Slavery has been recognized as a cowardly, immoral institution for thousands of years.

"James Oglethorpe was among the first to articulate the Enlightenment case against slavery, banning it in the Province of Georgia on humanitarian grounds, and arguing against it in Parliament, and eventually encouraging his friends Granville Sharp and Hannah More to vigorously pursue the cause.[citation needed]

"Soon after Oglethorpe's death in 1785, Sharp and More united with William Wilberforce and others in forming the Clapham Sect."

"The Somersett Case in 1772, in which a fugitive slave was freed with the judgement that slavery did not exist under English common law, helped launch the British movement to abolish slavery"

Abolitionism - Wikipedia

 

[georgephillip]

That's total bullshit. For one thing, in those days 14 years old was of legal age.

Furthermore, you have no idea whether Jefferson raped her. I presume you base that claim on a theory of statutory rape., which is bullshit.

The author of your article is clearly a kook.

Can you find any evidence in support of your criticism?

https://www.phillytrib.com/commenta...cle_f841b673-50ac-5510-8330-20d3bac6f974.html

"In my Freedom’s Journal column last week here in The Philadelphia Tribune, I exposed the lie about President George Washington’s supposed wooden teeth and disclosed the truth about them having been 'yanked from the heads of his slaves.'

White racists who read it went ballistic.

They denied. They yelled. They screamed. They hollered. They insulted.

"They trolled.

"But mostly, they unwittingly made my column go viral all over social media. And for that I say, 'Thank you, racist white folks. Thank you very much!'

"I also say if you were mad about that Washington column, you’re gonna be livid about this Thomas Jefferson column.

"Jefferson, the third president of the United States and the man given credit for drafting the Declaration of Independence — which hypocritically proclaimed “All men [and women] are created equal' — was not only a slaveholder.

"He was also a pedophile rapist.

"You want proof?

"OK."

 

[georgephillip]

the rich like those in the democrat party will always rule get used to it

Conservatives made that same argument in defense of the divine right of kings for centuries. They were wrong then, and you are wrong about the economic system that follows capitalism.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Can you find any evidence in support of your criticism?

https://www.phillytrib.com/commenta...cle_f841b673-50ac-5510-8330-20d3bac6f974.html

"In my Freedom’s Journal column last week here in The Philadelphia Tribune, I exposed the lie about President George Washington’s supposed wooden teeth and disclosed the truth about them having been 'yanked from the heads of his slaves.'

White racists who read it went ballistic.

They denied. They yelled. They screamed. They hollered. They insulted.

"They trolled.

"But mostly, they unwittingly made my column go viral all over social media. And for that I say, 'Thank you, racist white folks. Thank you very much!'

"I also say if you were mad about that Washington column, you’re gonna be livid about this Thomas Jefferson column.

"Jefferson, the third president of the United States and the man given credit for drafting the Declaration of Independence — which hypocritically proclaimed “All men [and women] are created equal' — was not only a slaveholder.

"He was also a pedophile rapist.

"You want proof?

"OK."

LOL!

 

[georgephillip]

Wrong, NAZI. Under socialism, you're still working for someone else. Show me one socialist country where the majority of the workers aren't taking orders from someone else.

Fundamental decisions like what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus will be made democratically while some management or supervisory positions will rotate among qualified workers.

Workers' self-management - Wikipedia

"Workers' self-management, also referred to as labor management and organizational self-management, is a form of organizational management based on self-directed work processes on the part of an organization's workforce.

"Self-management is a defining characteristic of socialism, with proposals for self-management having appeared many times throughout the history of the socialist movement, advocated variously by democratic, libertarian and market socialists as well as anarchists and communists."

 

[Foolardi]

https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf

"Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.

"Capitalism is not democratic, democracy not capitalist.

"During the first postwar decades, tensions between the two were moderated through the socio-political embedding of capitalism by an interventionist tax and welfare state.

"Yet, the financialization of capitalism since the 1980s has broken the precarious capitalist-democratic compromise."

Reagan's tax cuts facilitated low interest rates and financial bubbles to promote US financial expansion by making real estate speculation and junk-bond corporate takeovers effectively exempt from income taxation.

This set in motion a chain-reaction of asset price inflation that is still polarizing this economy today.

The primary mode of accumulation has become financial, enabling investment bankers to replace government planners.

Government Planners ... eh.More like Commie Planners.The opposite of Milton
Friedman's -- Free to Choose --. Because the rule that best fits Big Brother
Government is something even a 5th grader can extrapolate.
The Bigger the Government the Smaller the Citizen.
It'd be like demanding that Kids in Grade school aren't equipped to have
paper routes.
" The best government rests on the people,and not on the few,on
persons and not on property,on the free development of public opinion
and not on authority. "
-- George Bancroft { American Historian } 1800-1891

 

[Foolardi]

Capitalism is what allowed our country to develop into the greatest country in the world. Central planning would have sentenced us to a perpetual state of poverty, shortages, distrust, no freedom and a total dependence on government followed by economic collapse and chaos. You people who would rather be a part of the "collective" should pick one of those great Marxist destinations and go there. It'll be good for your head.

Take it from the Biggest Commie in the last Half Century.
He should know.
" Capitalism isn't just an unjust economic system.It's a way of
life that leads to corruption of important values.Television is only
one example. " -- Nikita Khrushchov { Soviet Russian leader }.

 

[bripat9643]

Fundamental decisions like what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus will be made democratically while some management or supervisory positions will rotate among qualified workers.

Workers' self-management - Wikipedia

"Workers' self-management, also referred to as labor management and organizational self-management, is a form of organizational management based on self-directed work processes on the part of an organization's workforce.

"Self-management is a defining characteristic of socialism, with proposals for self-management having appeared many times throughout the history of the socialist movement, advocated variously by democratic, libertarian and market socialists as well as anarchists and communists."

In other words, decisions aren't made democratically. The workers are still working for someone else. That person is likely to be far more oppressive than a manager in a private economy.

 

[Foolardi]

Fundamental decisions like what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus will be made democratically while some management or supervisory positions will rotate among qualified workers.

Workers' self-management - Wikipedia

"Workers' self-management, also referred to as labor management and organizational self-management, is a form of organizational management based on self-directed work processes on the part of an organization's workforce.

"Self-management is a defining characteristic of socialism, with proposals for self-management having appeared many times throughout the history of the socialist movement, advocated variously by democratic, libertarian and market socialists as well as anarchists and communists."

I get it.Like F.D.R.'s Overuse of his WPA. Works Progress Administration.
Which was used as example in Obama's Very first Spending bill.
Within weeks of taking office.His American Recovery and Reinvestment act of 2009
launched in febuary of that year.Somewhere in the neighborhood of $ 862 Billion.
It grew in weeks from $ 787 Billion. Alan Greenspan {then Fed Chair } cautioned that
most of it will not even see the light of day.By fall only around 10% was put into effect.
It was supposedly going to be used for Shovel ready jobs.Building Roads and Bridges.
Same blather Biden talked up the last year.Chalk it up to Feel Good Talk.
No where within a country mile of what President Eisenhower managed with his
building of the Interstate Highway System.

 

[bripat9643]

Fundamental enough?

No he didn't.

 

[bripat9643]

Dividend payouts.
Stock buybacks.
Board of Directors.

And?

 

[Viktor]

https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf

"Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.

"Capitalism is not democratic, democracy not capitalist.

"During the first postwar decades, tensions between the two were moderated through the socio-political embedding of capitalism by an interventionist tax and welfare state.

"Yet, the financialization of capitalism since the 1980s has broken the precarious capitalist-democratic compromise."

Reagan's tax cuts facilitated low interest rates and financial bubbles to promote US financial expansion by making real estate speculation and junk-bond corporate takeovers effectively exempt from income taxation.

This set in motion a chain-reaction of asset price inflation that is still polarizing this economy today.

The primary mode of accumulation has become financial, enabling investment bankers to replace government planners.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production and the places that sell the goods are privately owned. Allocation of resources is done with the profit motive.
Democracy is a political system in which the citizens vote to make decisions on the laws to be made and who is to run the system. The US Constitution is a political blueprint for a government and justice system.

 

[georgephillip]

You are comparing apples and oranges. Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production and the places that sell the goods are privately owned. Allocation of resources is done with the profit motive

There's a tension between the profit motive and one person/one vote that is transforming US democracy into an oligarchy:

https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf

"During the first postwar decades, tensions between the two were moderated through the socio-political embedding of capitalism by an interventionist tax and welfare state.

"Yet, the financialization of capitalism since the 1980s has broken the precarious capitalist-democratic compromise. Socioeconomic inequality has risen continuously and has transformed directly into political inequality."

Democracy and capitalism are parts of an interdisciplinary branch of the social sciences that focuses on interrelationships between individuals, governments and public policy.

Political Economics describes any government policy with an economic impact, and in the US that entails capitalism and democracy.

What Is Political Economy?.

 

[dblack]

You are comparing apples and oranges. Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production and the places that sell the goods are privately owned. Allocation of resources is done with the profit motive.
Democracy is a political system in which the citizens vote to make decisions on the laws to be made and who is to run the system. The US Constitution is a political blueprint for a government and justice system.

I don't really get the deification of democracy. It's a reasonable mechanism for making decisions when it's imperative we're all on the same page. But most decisions facing society don't require everyone to be on the same page. ie in most cases we don't need to take a vote and force everyone to take the same path. But that's what socialists want. I'm not sure why.

 

[georgephillip]

Conservatives believe rich aristocrats deserve to decide what to produce,

Why would we let poor morons like you decide what to produce?

most importantly, how do distribute any profits.

Yes, owners get to decide what to do with profits.
Poor, stupid whiners like you don't get to decide.

So, how much does the productive economy have to shrink in order to continue sucking-up an exponentially growing volume of interest and stock-price gains to cover all this corporate, business, and personal debt, Rich-Bitch?

Debt and Power | Michael Hudson

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

So, how much does the productive economy have to shrink in order to continue sucking-up an exponentially growing volume of interest and stock-price gains to cover all this corporate, business, and personal debt, Rich-Bitch?

Debt and Power | Michael Hudson

Why do you feel interest and stock price gains take money out of the economy?

Is it because you're a marxist moron?