CAP AND TRADE - Coming to your state soon?

[gslack]

Cap and trade worked for sulphate emmissions. However, I think that even with cap and trade, the effects of the GHGs will become severe enough that by the time the policy is in position, much more draconian measures will be taken. To not much avail. At least 30 years inertia in the system.

Not the same thing and it was a more local system closed to speculators and outside investing. Sulphate was a much smaller scale than CO2. Also it was a true problem and a harm to the environment. CO2 is everywhere and in nearly every industry on the planet hell man life itself produces CO2.

You are trying an apples to oranges comparison...

 

[gslack]

http://www.epa.gov/AIRMARKET/cap-trade/docs/ctresults.pdf

The Acid Rain Program was established under Title IV
of the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments to reduce acid
rain and improve public health by dramatically reducing
emissions of SO2 and NOx. Using a market-based cap
and trade approach, the program sets a permanent cap
on the total amount of SO2 that may be emitted by
electric power plants nationwide. The cap is set at about
one half of the amount of SO2 emitted in 1980, and the
trading component allows flexibility for sources to select
the method of compliance. The program also sets NOx
emission limitations for coal-fired units with some
compliance flexibility, representing about a 27 percent
reduction from 1990 levels.

Nice piece of propaganda oldsocks...... Why not just post evidence of global warming from the Club of Rome site and cut out the middleman?

 

[gslack]

Close to the same, harder to enforce. The suphate emissions usually settled within a few hundred miles of the source, the CO2 affects all the world.

The reason that I do not think they will be effective is that the effects we are seeing right now from AGW were predicted to happen 20 to 100 years from now. If this continues, only an outright, and rapidly declining cap will do any good, and only decades in the future. From past observation, there is about 30 years or more heating from the present GHGs in the atmosphere. There is that much inertia in the system.

DUDE STOP LYING!

Seriously man its getting old now. You don't know any of that at all, all you have is a popular theory and its losing popularity by the minute.......

 

[Immanuel]

I've been reading up a little about Cap and Trade.

I didn't really understand it until recently. Now, I think I have a slightly better idea of what it is.

This is the liberal idea of how one buys his way into heaven. It is very similar to the Catholic Church selling indulgences during the days of Martin Luther only now it is the U.S. Government selling indulgences to companies allowing them to sin a little bit of pollution into our air.

Hmm, as a Lutheran, I'm not so sure I like this idea.

Immie

 

[Foxfyre]

I've been reading up a little about Cap and Trade.

I didn't really understand it until recently. Now, I think I have a slightly better idea of what it is.

This is the liberal idea of how one buys his way into heaven. It is very similar to the Catholic Church selling indulgences during the days of Martin Luther only now it is the U.S. Government selling indulgences to companies allowing them to sin a little bit of pollution into our air.

Hmm, as a Lutheran, I'm not so sure I like this idea.

Immie

Okay that was good. I pronounce yours the best metaphor of the day.

 

[dilloduck]

yikes---that makes Al Gore pope don't it ?

 

[Big Fitz]

Two days ago, 4/29/10 Glenn Beck started exposing the Chicago Climate exchange's linkages in the second hour of his show. I'm sure you can find the podcast to listen to, but this information is what I remember being talked about regarding it. Listen for more clear details, there may be errors in translation.

As it is planned, the Chicago Climate Exchange (CCX) will be utilizing new technology and software created to monitor all major greenhouse gases in order to price and facilitate trade in this new form of taxation and economic control. (Since AGW doesn't exist, there's no crisis to prevent but the pretense to maintain.)

The patent for this 'big board' technology to monitor Greenhouse Gasses that will be used by the CCX is held by Franklin Raines, purchased relatively cheaply while he was in charge of Fannie Mae and used federal tax monies in which to purchase it. Now we all should remember that Franklin Raines collected millions and millions of dollars in bonuses for cooking the books at Fannie in order to keep the profit margins artificially high for his own personal gain as well as give the illusion all was well. When questioned WHY Fannie Mae bought the patent, since it obviously is outside the scope of services and duties of Fannie Mae, the interested parties were told that they weren't interested in the technology... yet.

Now, Franklin Raines is at the Center for American Progress (a radical leftist political action group), being rehabilitated before being put back into public circulation, and is also involved in an initiative being called "Emerald City (Cities maybe?)" who's goal is to create greener cities and smart growth policy among other aspects. I find it interesting that I can't find much information right now on it, so I'm not sure what to make of this initiative or group. Why is it significant... you shall see.

In the mean time, if/when cap and tax passes, the CCX now has the EXCLUSIVE rights to the technology, owned by Fannie Mae and Franklin Raines to begin selling carbon and greenhouse gas credits. The money collected by these transactions is estimated to be approximately 10 TRILLION dollars. The CCX on the other hand is a non-profit and therefore cannot keep the money, if my understanding is correct. So, it has been suggested by the board of directors to funnel the money of 10 trillion dollars into associated green, progressive political action groups like SEIU, ACT, ACORN, Center for American Progress and this potential Emerald Cities group in which to push forth their progressive/fascist/socialist agenda. To give an idea of scale... the US GDP is 14 trillion.

So, what is at stake here? 10 trillion dollars of your money ending up in the hands of radical socialist/fascist/progressives funneled through an exchange that stands to profit an organization rife with fraud, and enrich a man exposed as a fraud, not to mention enrich thousands of political shock troops who will then try to fundamentally change this nation forever.

The horrible beautiful machine has been built. It is just waiting for the fuel to be put in... and then...

What I have not been so good at is confirming what I was listening to on Glenn's show. Check it out at his site and see what I've got wrong, and/or what I misunderstood. I would rather know truth than be right on this one. Particularly if this whole mess isn't true, as I sure as hell hope it isn't.

2nd hour, 4/29/10. Listen for yourself at glennbeck.com

 

[Immanuel]

yikes---that makes Al Gore pope don't it ?

Hahahahaha,

Maybe not Pope, but at least a Cardinal.

Immie

 

[gslack]

does anybody have any info on "Chicago Climate Exchange" a business set up solely for trading in emissions (which really seems strange to me --- what kind of product is that?)

apparently this company stockholders include goldman-sachs, al gore and barack obama.

CCX Chicago Carbon Exchange, Al Gore and Former UN environmental programme head Maurice strong are stock holders, Strong being the former president of that company while he was the UN environment head.

Also the company is part of Climate Exchange PLC. A multi-national climate trading company. Incidentally they made attention in 1995 in the small scale So2 markets.... Coincidence?

In this group of CO2 marketers we have...

• ENVEX - ENVEX is a key service provider to emerging environmental markets. Our goal is to foster Australian environmental markets that are deep, liquid, efficient, and transparent.

• CCFE - Chicago Climate Futures Exchange® (CCFE®) operates the leading U.S. marketplace for environmental derivatives, financial instruments whose underlying values are tradable environmental assets.

• ECX - The European Climate Exchange (ECX) is the leading marketplace for trading carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions in Europe and internationally.

• MCEX - The Montréal Climate Exchange (MCeX) provides a market-based solution to help companies and all those involved in addressing the most serious environmental challenges, especially reducing air pollutant and greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions.

• TCX* - TIANJIN CLIMATE EXCHANGE (TCX) is a joint venture of Chicago Climate Exchange (CCX),China National Petroleum Corporation Asset Management Corporation (CNPC-AM) and Tianjin Property Rights Exchange (TPRE), TCX is the first integrated multi-product environmental exchange in China. *The site was down at the time of writing, so the link is to the CCX news of its opening. Suffice to say it is on the same model as those above. The CCX even states as much.

• ICX* - India Climate Exchange (ICX). The goal of this effort is to enable entities in India to become involved in greenhouse gas reductions integrated with emissions trading, for the purposes of climate change mitigation, institution building and social development. *Under current development according to the CCX website.

Yes this is a global system.... Conflict of interest? You bet.... Monopolization? Most definitely....

These bastards are no better than pirates...... And you want to talk about ethics? THe very same Big Oil they claim is trying to block them in the media, are some of the largest contributors and biggest backers of this. THey don't want to stop this they are ready and invested in it. Some big bad boogey man they got there... Investors not just any investors but some of the biggest ones... When we go to CCX and look for investors we find a list of big names but only those who wish to be named are on it. For some reason BP, Exxon, and the rest are not listed any longer.... Odd.... monsanto was removed after the bovine growth hormone issue came public..... odd again...

From their partners page; a short list follow the link for a longer one...

Members of CCX

Petrochemicals
LANXESS Elastomeros do Brasil S.A. (petrochemicals are petroleum derived chemicals)

Vessels Coal Gas Inc.

Dow Corning*

DuPont

FMC Corporation

Potash Corporation

Rhodia Energy Brasil Ltda

U.S. Salt, LLC

Rolls-Royce

United Technologies Corporation

Ford Motor Company

Thats a very short representation, the list on the site is astounding and remember those are only the ones wanting to be listed. We have electric companies who burn coal already set up in this to trade for more credits and or turn their unused credits into cash...

This is the most heinous act of public larceny ever perpetrated on the people of this planet by its so-called leaders. make no mistake, a CO2 cap and trade bill will in effect be a tax on life.

They will not stop using fossil fuels when they can make double the money from burning them. And its insane to think they will. Even if there are good people with good intentions in the mix, the market will be dominated by market types. THe same types who bring about the savings and loan scams, the real estate crash, wall street raiding, and the list goes on.

That is the reality of this. like it or not.... When and or IF we find an alternative fuel that is sustainable and viable that does not create CO2, do you really think they will let this go after years of it making them untold wealth? Do honestly in your mind feel that these business people will stop charging for the product and the result no matter what CO2 levels are? If you really believe that than god help you before you sell us all.....

All of this is not hidden, it is just not talked about publicly. It's real you have the links and all the info you need to look into it for yourself. I implore you, every one to please look into this yourselves. Do not take my word or the media's word on this. it's too big and too all-inclusive to trust the media any media. look for yourself you have the links you have the info, and you obviously have the internet. All you need to do is follow the links I gave you to the companies own sites and see for yourself....

please take off your party politics and global warming hats and goggles and go and see for yourself, then decide...... This will be a tax on life, and thats too big a deal to leave to any one to decide for you...

 

[Big Fitz]

Carbon credits. The anti-christ of all derivative bubble economies. This will destroy the world.

 

[gslack]

Incidentally, Maurice Strong who resigned from the UN environmental program after the Iraq Oil for Food fiasco and his role in it surfaced. Now lives in The Peoples Republic of China..... The reason? He even stated to the press he was there to help build their Carbon Trade market.... You know the one listed and linked to news on in my previous post? Yeah.....

P.S. almost forgot... Maurice strongs' big break came in oil and mineral businesses....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Strong

http://www.canadafreepress.com/maurice-strong.htm

And as it turns out Maurice strong is still one of the directors at CCX.... Couldn't find it on the site directly, had to google it and it came up as a link to CCX website. See for yourself....

http://www.chicagoclimatex.com/content.jsf?id=67

 

[Big Fitz]

Great another known criminal in charge of creating carbon credits.

 

[gslack]

More from china itself....

The International Economic Club of China

and one from world news...

China sets targets to curb carbon - Worldnews.com

BTW look all day and you will not find anything at all on this about any of those involved in the major media.... Hannity says a few things but he is an idiot and no one takes him seriously.... Fox mentions it in passing in very small stories.... But no expose' no real story no headlines just tiny little mentions.... And not a word on it from MSNBC....

Look for yourself.....

 

[Big Fitz]

More from china itself....

The International Economic Club of China

and one from world news...

China sets targets to curb carbon - Worldnews.com

BTW look all day and you will not find anything at all on this about any of those involved in the major media.... Hannity says a few things but he is an idiot and no one takes him seriously.... Fox mentions it in passing in very small stories.... But no expose' no real story no headlines just tiny little mentions.... And not a word on it from MSNBC....

Look for yourself.....

Glenn Beck is the only one. He is the tip of the spear driving into the heart of this beast. If others don't wake up soon and rally to his cause, I fear what may become of him. He is striking home on some of the most powerful and dangerous people in the world, exposing their plans for us.

 

[gslack]

More from china itself....

The International Economic Club of China

and one from world news...

China sets targets to curb carbon - Worldnews.com

BTW look all day and you will not find anything at all on this about any of those involved in the major media.... Hannity says a few things but he is an idiot and no one takes him seriously.... Fox mentions it in passing in very small stories.... But no expose' no real story no headlines just tiny little mentions.... And not a word on it from MSNBC....

Look for yourself.....

Glenn Beck is the only one. He is the tip of the spear driving into the heart of this beast. If others don't wake up soon and rally to his cause, I fear what may become of him. He is striking home on some of the most powerful and dangerous people in the world, exposing their plans for us.

He talks about it but only uses it to attack the left... And that is in reality not helping at all... Sorry I know he is very popular and a lot of people like him, but its the truth. his version paints it like its all on the left and its not. They have a greater vested interest in it than many on the right but they are knee deep in it as well.

Wit this comes a world climate bank to regulate this and who will be in control of that? THe UN world Bank. You saw the list of partners in the CCX on their site (I hope so anyway), there are heads of every industry on it. Ford, Rolls-Royce? You think their CEo's are left wing? Don't think so... Power companies, Dupont, Dow Jones, and many Banks. All of them you will find right wing and left wing in their rollcalls.

Left versus Right is the show to occupy otherwise smart and intelligent people in debate over inconsequential nonsense that will mean nothing in the end. We are getting the same stimulus programs under this left sided administration we got from the last right sided one. health care? THat was coming anyway no matter what. its a fact and looking at the world we cannot deny this. how could we compete with other countries when all the rest of the world is guaranteeing medical bill payment by their government? No one will be able to not pay a medical bill, if you have a social security card and a birth certificate you're nailed. Now malpractice suits will get a cap, and become ever more difficult a process.

make no mistake this was coming regardless.... because this is not about affordable health care, this was about medical malpractice insurance expense, billing and collecting costs and difficulties, insurance systems being too fragmented and uneven coverage leading loss of revenue for local doctors and several other issues along those lines. The coverage of all americans was somewhere at the bottom of this.... And all those who will benefit most are the right wing voting medical/ healthcare business professionals and big pharma. Why do you think so many doctors were for this?

Left/right, is all bullshit.... They are the show and nothing more... look at this objectively and you cannot miss this...

 

[Big Fitz]

Funny, Beck says the same thing. It's about right and wrong, not left and right. Progressivism is wrong and needs to be stopped.

 

[gslack]

Funny, Beck says the same thing. It's about right and wrong, not left and right. Progressivism is wrong and needs to be stopped.

Well I haven't listened to him in a while... I don't watch major news anymore... When I did I was a left winger...... See the problem? it clouds the mind with nonsense and gives a false scenario.... I stopped watching it 2 years ago and started to feel better, and never looked back...

I get information and news online, or from from my work ticker, and from sources I use for work. I try and avoid documentaries unless I am in a right frame of mind for them and can keep them in proper perspective. Watch "Farenheit 911" in the wrong frame of mind and you walk away thinking George W is the anti-christ.

I also try and avoid conspiracy sites and known propaganda outlets. unless I want to analyze their BS... Which is fun

In my job its my responsibility to see through inconsequentials and spot the real pertinent information. It has become my normal thinking in the last 21 years. now I question everything especially if I like what it says. I never take a media claim at face value nor anything a politician, business man, corporation, activist group, or any other institution or establishment says without checking.... maybe it makes me a cynic, but I would rather be a cynic than a sucker....

 

[Foxfyre]

More from china itself....

The International Economic Club of China

and one from world news...

China sets targets to curb carbon - Worldnews.com

BTW look all day and you will not find anything at all on this about any of those involved in the major media.... Hannity says a few things but he is an idiot and no one takes him seriously.... Fox mentions it in passing in very small stories.... But no expose' no real story no headlines just tiny little mentions.... And not a word on it from MSNBC....

Look for yourself.....

Glenn Beck is the only one. He is the tip of the spear driving into the heart of this beast. If others don't wake up soon and rally to his cause, I fear what may become of him. He is striking home on some of the most powerful and dangerous people in the world, exposing their plans for us.

He talks about it but only uses it to attack the left... And that is in reality not helping at all... Sorry I know he is very popular and a lot of people like him, but its the truth. his version paints it like its all on the left and its not. They have a greater vested interest in it than many on the right but they are knee deep in it as well.

Wit this comes a world climate bank to regulate this and who will be in control of that? THe UN world Bank. You saw the list of partners in the CCX on their site (I hope so anyway), there are heads of every industry on it. Ford, Rolls-Royce? You think their CEo's are left wing? Don't think so... Power companies, Dupont, Dow Jones, and many Banks. All of them you will find right wing and left wing in their rollcalls.

Left versus Right is the show to occupy otherwise smart and intelligent people in debate over inconsequential nonsense that will mean nothing in the end. We are getting the same stimulus programs under this left sided administration we got from the last right sided one. health care? THat was coming anyway no matter what. its a fact and looking at the world we cannot deny this. how could we compete with other countries when all the rest of the world is guaranteeing medical bill payment by their government? No one will be able to not pay a medical bill, if you have a social security card and a birth certificate you're nailed. Now malpractice suits will get a cap, and become ever more difficult a process.

make no mistake this was coming regardless.... because this is not about affordable health care, this was about medical malpractice insurance expense, billing and collecting costs and difficulties, insurance systems being too fragmented and uneven coverage leading loss of revenue for local doctors and several other issues along those lines. The coverage of all americans was somewhere at the bottom of this.... And all those who will benefit most are the right wing voting medical/ healthcare business professionals and big pharma. Why do you think so many doctors were for this?

Left/right, is all bullshit.... They are the show and nothing more... look at this objectively and you cannot miss this...

I think you're selling Beck a wee bit short here though. He is ideologically conservative, yes, and very clearly articulates why he is from the the depths of his libertarian (little "L") soul.

But he is also a competent self taught historian and nobody, Republican nor Democrat, escapes his scrutiny, criticism, and/or condemnation as warranted. He is not attacking the "left" perse but is attacking socialist progressives that he sees as dismantling America, brick by brick. He saw that beginning under Teddy Roosevelt (a Republican) and continuing to the modern day but escalating now in at an alarming pace.

He has shown on his program that there is no difference between the two major parties but rather only a difference of degree and rate of change.

And his best line of the year was: "It isn't good enough to not suck as bad as the other side sucks."

And it is because he is 100% non partisan and non discriminatory in his evaluations that I have learned to pay attention. I don't agree with all his conclusions. But I have learned to respect him as a scholar, researcher, and independent investigator. He is going to get some of it wrong, misinterpret stuff, and make mistakes for sure. He's a fallabile guy just as we are all fallable.

But he is worth paying attention to. If anything he comes up with names and sources that nobody else is coming up with.

 

[gslack]

Glenn Beck is the only one. He is the tip of the spear driving into the heart of this beast. If others don't wake up soon and rally to his cause, I fear what may become of him. He is striking home on some of the most powerful and dangerous people in the world, exposing their plans for us.

He talks about it but only uses it to attack the left... And that is in reality not helping at all... Sorry I know he is very popular and a lot of people like him, but its the truth. his version paints it like its all on the left and its not. They have a greater vested interest in it than many on the right but they are knee deep in it as well.

Wit this comes a world climate bank to regulate this and who will be in control of that? THe UN world Bank. You saw the list of partners in the CCX on their site (I hope so anyway), there are heads of every industry on it. Ford, Rolls-Royce? You think their CEo's are left wing? Don't think so... Power companies, Dupont, Dow Jones, and many Banks. All of them you will find right wing and left wing in their rollcalls.

Left versus Right is the show to occupy otherwise smart and intelligent people in debate over inconsequential nonsense that will mean nothing in the end. We are getting the same stimulus programs under this left sided administration we got from the last right sided one. health care? THat was coming anyway no matter what. its a fact and looking at the world we cannot deny this. how could we compete with other countries when all the rest of the world is guaranteeing medical bill payment by their government? No one will be able to not pay a medical bill, if you have a social security card and a birth certificate you're nailed. Now malpractice suits will get a cap, and become ever more difficult a process.

make no mistake this was coming regardless.... because this is not about affordable health care, this was about medical malpractice insurance expense, billing and collecting costs and difficulties, insurance systems being too fragmented and uneven coverage leading loss of revenue for local doctors and several other issues along those lines. The coverage of all americans was somewhere at the bottom of this.... And all those who will benefit most are the right wing voting medical/ healthcare business professionals and big pharma. Why do you think so many doctors were for this?

Left/right, is all bullshit.... They are the show and nothing more... look at this objectively and you cannot miss this...

I think you're selling Beck a wee bit short here though. He is ideologically conservative, yes, and very clearly articulates why he is from the the depths of his libertarian (little "L") soul.

But he is also a competent self taught historian and nobody, Republican nor Democrat, escapes his scrutiny, criticism, and/or condemnation as warranted. He is not attacking the "left" perse but is attacking socialist progressives that he sees as dismantling America, brick by brick. He saw that beginning under Teddy Roosevelt (a Republican) and continuing to the modern day but escalating now in at an alarming pace.

He has shown on his program that there is no difference between the two major parties but rather only a difference of degree and rate of change.

And his best line of the year was: "It isn't good enough to not suck as bad as the other side sucks."

And it is because he is 100% non partisan and non discriminatory in his evaluations that I have learned to pay attention. I don't agree with all his conclusions. But I have learned to respect him as a scholar, researcher, and independent investigator. He is going to get some of it wrong, misinterpret stuff, and make mistakes for sure. He's a fallabile guy just as we are all fallable.

But he is worth paying attention to. If anything he comes up with names and sources that nobody else is coming up with.

Fair enough, maybe I should give him another look now.... Souncds like he is not the same he was when starting out....

 

[westwall]

What is truly sad is that with all of the evidence out there of who the big players in the AGW fraud are, people like konrad, and tuba and old rocks still can't wrap their poor little heads around the simple fact that it is truly all about money and how the big boys can take it from us the little people.

Yes please give me more public education