Zone1 Can you find the Flaw in Atheist Speaker Christopher Hitchens' Logic Here.

Atheism is also a belief. Im not an atheist. I make my own choices. God is belief by definition because you cant prove it
The affirmative expression of atheism is believing the only thing that exists is the material world. In this expression the thing that exists is the material world. The affirmative expression of religious people is believing God exists. In this expression the "thing" that exists is God.

God can be know through the light of human reason. Try googling, "does Judaism teach that God can be known through the light of human reason?" You are no jew.

Judaism teaches that God can be known, or at least recognized, through the light of human reason, though this is generally viewed as a complement to, rather than a replacement for, divine revelation. Judaism encourages the use of intellect to understand the world and, by extension, the Creator.
jewishideas.org +2
Key aspects of this teaching include:
  • Rational Exploration of God: Medieval Jewish philosophers, notably Maimonides, argued that studying the physical world (science and nature) is a religious pursuit that leads to knowledge of God.
  • The Example of Abraham: Classical rabbinic tradition (Midrash) holds that Abraham discovered the existence of one God through the use of his own reason, observing the natural world and concluding it required a creator, long before revelation at Sinai.
  • "Image of God" as Intellect: Many rabbinical interpretations suggest that being created in the "image of God" (Genesis 1:27) refers to the human ability to reason.
  • Limitations of Reason: While reason can demonstrate the existence of a Creator, many Jewish thinkers maintain that the full essence of God is beyond human comprehension. Reason provides the "back" of God (understanding His actions and attributes), not the "face" (His essence).
  • Complementary to Faith: In the Jewish tradition, reason often works alongside Emunah (faith/trust). While reason can provide a "scaffolding" for belief, it is not always seen as sufficient on its own to replace the need for experiential, lived faith.
 
Both leaders were disgraced so it was not a unique event.
It is because only Jesus continued on as the leader. That's what made Christianity unique.

Why didn’t the Church follow the patterns of other groups whose leaders had been persecuted? Why did it (uniquely) consider Jesus as its continued leader? Why did it consider Jesus (after the crucifixion) to be the fulfillment of Israel’s destiny? Why did it organize itself so uniquely? Why did it worship Jesus as the Lord and endure persecution for that worship? How did it become one of the most inspired and dynamically expansive missionary organizations in the history of religions with a publicly humiliated and executed “Messiah” as its sole leader?

Are you saying John didn't believe what he wrote?
I'm saying that's not what you believe it means. Rather than reading Jesus redeemed everyone. You read it as Jesus excluded everyone who doesn't believe in him which is dumb. But it serves your purposes to subvert Christianity, so you'll never change your mind because it would ruin all of your fun. The passage is just vague enough to allow idiots to subvert the message of Christ which is that through his sacrifice EVERYONE has been redeemed. You idiots don't understand the difference between redemption and salvation.

I can only read the words as written. If they require interpretation, I leave that to others. I think it is generally safe to say that other Christians will disagree with you regardless of what you say when you interpret.
Horseshit. You know full well you believe that passage means Jesus excluded everyone who doesn't believe in him which is dumb. Why else would you argue that most Christians wouldn't accept my interpretation if you didn't believe that?

On the subject of honesty, you keep claiming I believe in a conspiracy of some sort, I don't and I've repeatedly told you that. If you don't want to accept my answers, that is on you.
When it comes to Christianity, you are as intellecually dishonest as they come. Eherman made millions off of people like you. It might be a different story if you could make a credible argument for why a disgraced religious leader was worshipped as God immediately after he was put to death with his followers risking persecution, imprisonment and death. Until then, you believe in a conspiracy theory that is defeated by the timeline of events.

Make a case for why both Jesus and Smith were considered a prophet by their followers and you'll have your answer.
Jesus was worshipped as God by Christians. Jesus wasn't considered a phrophet by Christians. Why can't you make make a credible argument for why a disgraced religious leader was worshipped as God immediately after he was put to death with his followers risking persecution, imprisonment and death.

So what percent of Christians DO believe that without belief in Jesus they are going to suffer eternal damnation?
Why does that matter? Truth isn't a popularity contest. What I can tell you is that the ones that do believe that have confused salvation for redemption and most likely only have notional beliefs in God. Jesus redeemed everyone. It's up to each individual to work out their own salvation. A relationship with the Father, Son and the Holy spirit is considerably more helpful than a notional belief in that regard. But even that is not required. It's just much harder to do without it.

Why do you focus on the destination instead of the journey?

A "dumb" belief shared by many Christians?
Again... Truth isn't a popularity contest.

Again, I leave theological interpretations to you, I read the words as written.
You are lying. You know full well what you believe it means. You're just too chickenshit to admit it. That's why you keep beating around the bush and arguing Christians believe it. You are playing games.
 
Whoops, I stand very much corrected. He does talk about Islam:



Maybe he was speaking primarily of Islam.

In which case . . . never mind!

Except he still wrong, even about Islam.

Hitchens was a big critic of islam
He was sounding the alarm of letting these people into the UK and into the West long before anybody lifted their head up from thier diversity is our strength daze

Great speaker great thinker..
 
Then you make up your own story to suit yourself, which means we are not discussing the same topic.
Somebody made stuff up. Not sure it was me though.

Perhaps it's the perspective. My perspective is that of a circle, difficult to tell the beginning and the end. People speak of the ignorance of our ancestors, but it comparison it is we who lack the intelligence--or perhaps knowledge--they attempted to pass down. For example, times are tough, and then there comes a great, prosperous ruler. Then comes weak rulers and hard times. People begin looking for another great ruler so that times will improve. Biblical writers noted that there will be another great ruler bringing prosperity. People will rejoice in this time...but it will not last, governors being as they are. People will continue to suffer through bad leaders and hard times--times that will be so bad that it will take God, Himself, to establish His rule on earth. End times are God's rule--and that happens to each individual, when?
Those times will be pretty bad if God didn't establish His rule on earth during WWII.
 
It is because only Jesus continued on as the leader. That's what made Christianity unique.
Jesus died. Even his 'resurrection' was short-lived. How is that different from what happened to Smith?

I'm saying that's not what you believe it means. Rather than reading Jesus redeemed everyone. You read it as Jesus excluded everyone who doesn't believe in him which is dumb. But it serves your purposes to subvert Christianity, so you'll never change your mind because it would ruin all of your fun. The passage is just vague enough to allow idiots to subvert the message of Christ which is that through his sacrifice EVERYONE has been redeemed. You idiots don't understand the difference between redemption and salvation.


Horseshit. You know full well you believe that passage means Jesus excluded everyone who doesn't believe in him which is dumb. Why else would you argue that most Christians wouldn't accept my interpretation if you didn't believe that?


When it comes to Christianity, you are as intellecually dishonest as they come. Eherman made millions off of people like you. It might be a different story if you could make a credible argument for why a disgraced religious leader was worshipped as God immediately after he was put to death with his followers risking persecution, imprisonment and death. Until then, you believe in a conspiracy theory that is defeated by the timeline of events.


Jesus was worshipped as God by Christians. Jesus wasn't considered a phrophet by Christians. Why can't you make make a credible argument for why a disgraced religious leader was worshipped as God immediately after he was put to death with his followers risking persecution, imprisonment and death.


Why does that matter? Truth isn't a popularity contest. What I can tell you is that the ones that do believe that have confused salvation for redemption and most likely only have notional beliefs in God. Jesus redeemed everyone. It's up to each individual to work out their own salvation. A relationship with the Father, Son and the Holy spirit is considerably more helpful than a notional belief in that regard. But even that is not required. It's just much harder to do without it.

Why do you focus on the destination instead of the journey?


Again... Truth isn't a popularity contest.


You are lying. You know full well what you believe it means. You're just too chickenshit to admit it. That's why you keep beating around the bush and arguing Christians believe it. You are playing games.

It is because only Jesus continued on as the leader. That's what made Christianity unique.

Why didn’t the Church follow the patterns of other groups whose leaders had been persecuted? Why did it (uniquely) consider Jesus as its continued leader? Why did it consider Jesus (after the crucifixion) to be the fulfillment of Israel’s destiny? Why did it organize itself so uniquely? Why did it worship Jesus as the Lord and endure persecution for that worship? How did it become one of the most inspired and dynamically expansive missionary organizations in the history of religions with a publicly humiliated and executed “Messiah” as its sole leader?


I'm saying that's not what you believe it means. Rather than reading Jesus redeemed everyone. You read it as Jesus excluded everyone who doesn't believe in him which is dumb. But it serves your purposes to subvert Christianity, so you'll never change your mind because it would ruin all of your fun. The passage is just vague enough to allow idiots to subvert the message of Christ which is that through his sacrifice EVERYONE has been redeemed. You idiots don't understand the difference between redemption and salvation.


Horseshit. You know full well you believe that passage means Jesus excluded everyone who doesn't believe in him which is dumb. Why else would you argue that most Christians wouldn't accept my interpretation if you didn't believe that?


When it comes to Christianity, you are as intellecually dishonest as they come. Eherman made millions off of people like you. It might be a different story if you could make a credible argument for why a disgraced religious leader was worshipped as God immediately after he was put to death with his followers risking persecution, imprisonment and death. Until then, you believe in a conspiracy theory that is defeated by the timeline of events.


Jesus was worshipped as God by Christians. Jesus wasn't considered a phrophet by Christians. Why can't you make make a credible argument for why a disgraced religious leader was worshipped as God immediately after he was put to death with his followers risking persecution, imprisonment and death.


Why does that matter? Truth isn't a popularity contest. What I can tell you is that the ones that do believe that have confused salvation for redemption and most likely only have notional beliefs in God. Jesus redeemed everyone. It's up to each individual to work out their own salvation. A relationship with the Father, Son and the Holy spirit is considerably more helpful than a notional belief in that regard. But even that is not required. It's just much harder to do without it.

Why do you focus on the destination instead of the journey?


Again... Truth isn't a popularity contest.


You are lying. You know full well what you believe it means. You're just too chickenshit to admit it. That's why you keep beating around the bush and arguing Christians believe it. You are playing games.
Why do you wish to converse with an idiot? I don't.
 
Somebody made stuff up. Not sure it was me though.
Perhaps I missed it, but do you understand the difference between redemption and salvation? Have you read all the passages in the Old Testament that reference redemption and salvation? Do you see this as a foreshadowing of the New Testament, the New Testament as an overlay of the Old Testament?
Those times will be pretty bad if God didn't establish His rule on earth during WWII.
Then like Biblical Jews, are you expecting God to assume a political role and a political rule over all the earth? How are you imagining that all will fall in line and agree with you that God will obviously prevent humans from doing this--and that free will shall be out the door?

Do you know what Jesus taught instead?
 
Perhaps I missed it, but do you understand the difference between redemption and salvation? Have you read all the passages in the Old Testament that reference redemption and salvation? Do you see this as a foreshadowing of the New Testament, the New Testament as an overlay of the Old Testament?

Then like Biblical Jews, are you expecting God to assume a political role and a political rule over all the earth? How are you imagining that all will fall in line and agree with you that God will obviously prevent humans from doing this--and that free will shall be out the door?

Do you know what Jesus taught instead?
The NT has absolutely nothing to do with the Actual and Only Testament.
 
Perhaps I missed it, but do you understand the difference between redemption and salvation? Have you read all the passages in the Old Testament that reference redemption and salvation? Do you see this as a foreshadowing of the New Testament, the New Testament as an overlay of the Old Testament?
I probably do not understand the difference between redemption and salvation as you mean it. I have read the entire OT, years ago, but the passages you reference do not come to mind. A refresher would help.

Heretic that I am, I don't really see the OT as a foreshadowing of the New Testament, or see the New Testament as an overlay of the Old Testament. Certainly the messiah of the OT is not the messiah of the NT. None of the prophesies point to Jesus so he could not have fulfilled them.

Then like Biblical Jews, are you expecting God to assume a political role and a political rule over all the earth? How are you imagining that all will fall in line and agree with you that God will obviously prevent humans from doing this--and that free will shall be out the door?
As an atheist I'm not expecting God to do anything.

Do you know what Jesus taught instead?
I know what the NT says Jesus taught. I think it is fair to say that some of it was true but some was not. I doubt the actual quotes of Jesus would fill a single page.
 
Jesus died.
And rose from the dead which is the main reason Jesus was worshiped as God.
Even his 'resurrection' was short-lived.
Short lived? The resurrection is central to Christianity – so much so that St. Paul states:

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead… Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied (1Cor 15:13-15,18-19).

It is truly extraordinary that Paul made the claim that if there is no resurrection from the dead, that the faith of believers is useless and that all who have died in Christ have died in their sins. Paul knows that if he is lying, he and the other disciples have jeopardized the salvation of the whole Christian community, and furthermore he emerges as a false witness (a perjurer) before God, and is answerable to Him. The consequences of lying to (or even deceiving) believers about the resurrection cannot be overstated, because the resurrection is the foundation of Jesus’ claim to be the exclusive Son of God – and the unconditional love of God with us.

After Jesus rose from the dead, the apostles, especially Peter, immediately began preaching the Gospel, notably starting with Peter's sermon on Pentecost (Acts 2), which led to thousands of conversions, with all the apostles dispersing to preach globally, including Paul (an apostle to the Gentiles) and Thomas (to India). They all became witnesses to the resurrection, traveling widely, establishing churches, and facing martyrdom to spread the message of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.
How is that different from what happened to Smith?
  • Joseph Smith was not worshipped as God.
  • Joseph Smith did not claim to be equal to God.
  • Joseph Smith did not behave as if he were equal to God.
  • Joseph Smith did not fail to rebuke others for worshipping him as God.
  • John Smith did not perform miracles like controlling nature, altering matter, healing deformities, healing diseases and raising the dead.
  • Joseph Smith did not rise from the dead.
  • Joseph Smith was not crucified for performing miracles and claiming to be equal to God.
  • Joseph Smith was murdered by an armed mob while awaiting trial because he ordered the destruction of a press that published an anti-Mormon newspaper.
  • Joseph Smith did not willing sacrifice his body and blood for the sins of mankind.
  • Joseph Smith defended himself with a pistol.
 
Why do you wish to converse with an idiot? I don't.
I don't. Why can't you make make a credible argument for why a disgraced religious leader was worshipped as God immediately after he was put to death with his followers risking persecution, imprisonment and death?
 
And rose from the dead which is the main reason Jesus was worshiped as God.

Short lived? The resurrection is central to Christianity – so much so that St. Paul states:

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead… Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied (1Cor 15:13-15,18-19).

It is truly extraordinary that Paul made the claim that if there is no resurrection from the dead, that the faith of believers is useless and that all who have died in Christ have died in their sins. Paul knows that if he is lying, he and the other disciples have jeopardized the salvation of the whole Christian community, and furthermore he emerges as a false witness (a perjurer) before God, and is answerable to Him. The consequences of lying to (or even deceiving) believers about the resurrection cannot be overstated, because the resurrection is the foundation of Jesus’ claim to be the exclusive Son of God – and the unconditional love of God with us.

After Jesus rose from the dead, the apostles, especially Peter, immediately began preaching the Gospel, notably starting with Peter's sermon on Pentecost (Acts 2), which led to thousands of conversions, with all the apostles dispersing to preach globally, including Paul (an apostle to the Gentiles) and Thomas (to India). They all became witnesses to the resurrection, traveling widely, establishing churches, and facing martyrdom to spread the message of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.

  • Joseph Smith was not worshipped as God.
  • Joseph Smith did not claim to be equal to God.
  • Joseph Smith did not behave as if he were equal to God.
  • Joseph Smith did not fail to rebuke others for worshipping him as God.
  • John Smith did not perform miracles like controlling nature, altering matter, healing deformities, healing diseases and raising the dead.
  • Joseph Smith did not rise from the dead.
  • Joseph Smith was not crucified for performing miracles and claiming to be equal to God.
  • Joseph Smith was murdered by an armed mob while awaiting trial because he ordered the destruction of a press that published an anti-Mormon newspaper.
  • Joseph Smith did not willing sacrifice his body and blood for the sins of mankind.
  • Joseph Smith defended himself with a pistol.
No one comes back from the dead. This is older than Jesus and they just copied it. This is the classic hero story discovered by Joseph Campbell
  • Core Stages of the Journey
    While Campbell's original model identified 17 stages, modern storytellers often use a simplified 12-step version:
    1. The Ordinary World: The hero is introduced in their normal life, often feeling out of place or unaware of their potential.
    2. Call to Adventure: An event or message disrupts their world, presenting a challenge or quest.
    3. Refusal of the Call: Initially, the hero may hesitate or refuse the journey due to fear or insecurity.
    4. Meeting the Mentor: A wise figure provides guidance, training, or a magical gift to help them move forward.
    5. Crossing the Threshold: The hero fully commits and enters the "Special World" where the rules are different.
    6. Tests, Allies, and Enemies: The hero faces obstacles and meets companions who will aid or hinder them.
    7. Approach to the Inmost Cave: They draw closer to the heart of the journey, often their greatest fear.
    8. The Ordeal: A central life-or-death crisis where the hero must overcome a major obstacle.
    9. Reward (Seizing the Sword): Having survived, the hero gains a "boon"—a physical object, knowledge, or reconciliation.
    10. The Road Back: The hero must return to the Ordinary World, often facing one final challenge.
    11. Resurrection: A final test where the hero is transformed or reborn, proving they have truly changed.
    12. Return with the Elixir: They return home with the "elixir" (wisdom or a gift) to restore their community

  • They copied this classic hero story and created Jesus
 
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No one comes back from the dead. This is older than Jesus and they just copied it. This is the classic hero story discovered by Joseph Campbell
  • Core Stages of the Journey
    While Campbell's original model identified 17 stages, modern storytellers often use a simplified 12-step version:
    1. The Ordinary World: The hero is introduced in their normal life, often feeling out of place or unaware of their potential.
    2. Call to Adventure: An event or message disrupts their world, presenting a challenge or quest.
    3. Refusal of the Call: Initially, the hero may hesitate or refuse the journey due to fear or insecurity.
    4. Meeting the Mentor: A wise figure provides guidance, training, or a magical gift to help them move forward.
    5. Crossing the Threshold: The hero fully commits and enters the "Special World" where the rules are different.
    6. Tests, Allies, and Enemies: The hero faces obstacles and meets companions who will aid or hinder them.
    7. Approach to the Inmost Cave: They draw closer to the heart of the journey, often their greatest fear.
    8. The Ordeal: A central life-or-death crisis where the hero must overcome a major obstacle.
    9. Reward (Seizing the Sword): Having survived, the hero gains a "boon"—a physical object, knowledge, or reconciliation.
    10. The Road Back: The hero must return to the Ordinary World, often facing one final challenge.
    11. Resurrection: A final test where the hero is transformed or reborn, proving they have truly changed.
    12. Return with the Elixir: They return home with the "elixir" (wisdom or a gift) to restore their community

  • They copied this classic hero story and created Jesus
Jesus did.

 
I probably do not understand the difference between redemption and salvation as you mean it. I have read the entire OT, years ago, but the passages you reference do not come to mind. A refresher would help.

Heretic that I am, I don't really see the OT as a foreshadowing of the New Testament, or see the New Testament as an overlay of the Old Testament. Certainly the messiah of the OT is not the messiah of the NT. None of the prophesies point to Jesus so he could not have fulfilled them.


As an atheist I'm not expecting God to do anything.


I know what the NT says Jesus taught. I think it is fair to say that some of it was true but some was not. I doubt the actual quotes of Jesus would fill a single page.
The overriding question here is why the determination to toss it all aside. The answer seems to be there is no desire to believe, which leads to the question, why the lack of desire?
 
The overriding question here is why the determination to toss it all aside. The answer seems to be there is no desire to believe, which leads to the question, why the lack of desire?
I'd love to 'believe' but the question is, believe in what?
  • A supernatural being called God? What about all the other supernatural beings like elves?
  • Scripture? Which of the many religious text is the one to follow?
  • Religion? How to choose the one right one?
 
15th post
I'd love to 'believe' but the question is, believe in what?
  • A supernatural being called God? What about all the other supernatural beings like elves?
  • Scripture? Which of the many religious text is the one to follow?
  • Religion? How to choose the one right one?
St. Augustine was wondering if he should call upon God to get to believe/know him--or perhaps he should believe/get to know God before he called upon him. He decided upon the first. He did not know God; all he had was his own conclusion there was a minute possibility we call God. (I am paraphrasing here, but I understand this was his point.)

Next, stop throwing up road blocks about religion and scripture. What is needed is a good teacher. Being Catholic, I started looking up great Saints. In doing so, I stumbled across John of the Cross. Grin. Put him aside for much later on! The Confessions of St. Augustine or Thomas Aquinas or John Henry Newman might be starting point. CS Lewis is great as well. The point here, is I had a place to start which for me was Catholic Christianity. Stop looking at road blocks and find your own starting point.

I don't know about other religions/faiths, but The Bible in a Year (podcasts by Father Mike Schmitz) is online. Perhaps the same is true for other holy books?

Forget about trying to choose the "right" religion/denomination. Get started, and the right one will call to you. I believe that God meets us wherever we are and draws us to Him from there. I try to stay out of the way of the Holy Spirit when it comes to recommending which one.
 
St. Augustine was wondering if he should call upon God to get to believe/know him--or perhaps he should believe/get to know God before he called upon him. He decided upon the first. He did not know God; all he had was his own conclusion there was a minute possibility we call God. (I am paraphrasing here, but I understand this was his point.)

Next, stop throwing up road blocks about religion and scripture. What is needed is a good teacher. Being Catholic, I started looking up great Saints. In doing so, I stumbled across John of the Cross. Grin. Put him aside for much later on! The Confessions of St. Augustine or Thomas Aquinas or John Henry Newman might be starting point. CS Lewis is great as well. The point here, is I had a place to start which for me was Catholic Christianity. Stop looking at road blocks and find your own starting point.

I don't know about other religions/faiths, but The Bible in a Year (podcasts by Father Mike Schmitz) is online. Perhaps the same is true for other holy books?

Forget about trying to choose the "right" religion/denomination. Get started, and the right one will call to you. I believe that God meets us wherever we are and draws us to Him from there. I try to stay out of the way of the Holy Spirit when it comes to recommending which one.
When I was 12 I began really thinking about God and religion. My conclusion, unchanged to this day, was that, if he existed, God didn't give $0.02 if I believed/worshiped him or not so it did not matter in my life if he existed or not.

I was given the gift of life so I needed to take advantage of it and enjoy it. Thanks to whomever, I had a brain, such as it was, so it was meant to be used. I had a family and friends and they meant to be loved. That is how I lived my whole life. I've been VERY, VERY lucky so it seemed to have worked.

If I encounter St Peter at the gates I don't think I'll have too much to apologize for on this score.
 
When I was 12 I began really thinking about God and religion. My conclusion, unchanged to this day, was that, if he existed, God didn't give $0.02 if I believed/worshiped him or not so it did not matter in my life if he existed or not.

I was given the gift of life so I needed to take advantage of it and enjoy it. Thanks to whomever, I had a brain, such as it was, so it was meant to be used. I had a family and friends and they meant to be loved. That is how I lived my whole life. I've been VERY, VERY lucky so it seemed to have worked.

If I encounter St Peter at the gates I don't think I'll have too much to apologize for on this score.
Why would you go to the pearly gates? Basically, you have made your decision. You prefer to be happy apart from God. We're given a choice, and we are justly awarded with our choice.
 
For those of you who don't like to watch videos of atheists smugly pontificating

Regarding videos posted on the forums here, I dread many of them. Not based on content but as a matter of their duration. Opening the video you pasted, I immediately glanced and saw it was only a minute and half. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

What struck me most was when the smug fellow spoke of, "the illiterate parts of the Middle East." Before Gutenberg's printing press in 1440, literacy was rare everywhere. The way this guy tells it, back in China a couple of thousand years ago folks were sitting around reading the latest issue of Confucius Weekly.
 

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