Can we at least agree on this?

[Mac1958]

I think you're right on this score. But I also think it makes them more dangerous, not less. Especially since they've been brainwashed into believing that the left are literally demons, bent on destroying the country.

Yeah, their politicians and pundits are now using terms like "demonic" frequently, and they know that it works with the voters. It could be argued that they have reached the zenith of their desperation and have blown by scaring folks with Hitler and gone all the way to the Big Red Guy With Horns Down Below. That's when I realized here that trying to communicate with them on an internet message board is pointless. They're gone.

Those who have been stoking and nurturing this -- the craven politicians and opportunistic media hucksters -- know that their constituents are absolutely terrified and paranoid, and so pushing those buttons is an easy process. Now we've actually hit on Satan himself -- and it works. I hope this is their final primal scream, but I'm not at all convinced yet. And if it is, we need to survive it one piece. Not sure of that, either.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

NO.

Personality cult is not about ideas and consistency, it's about rationalizing anything Dear Leader does.

Dims do a lot of rationalizing for dear leader biden

 

[Dragonlady]

Yeah, their politicians and pundits are now using terms like "demonic" frequently, and they know that it works with the voters. It could be argued that they have reached the zenith of their desperation and have blown by scaring folks with Hitler and gone all the way to the Big Red Guy With Horns Down Below. That's when I realized here that trying to communicate with them on an internet message board is pointless. They're gone.

Those who have been stoking and nurturing this -- the craven politicians and opportunistic media hucksters -- know that their constituents are absolutely terrified and paranoid, and so pushing those buttons is an easy process. Now we've actually hit on Satan himself -- and it works. I hope this is their final primal scream, but I'm not at all convinced yet. And if it is, we need to survive it one piece. Not sure of that, either.

The rest of the world is standing by and watching in horror as this plays out. To me, the most frightening thing Donald Trump said during his presidency was when he congratulated Xi on becoming President for Life. "We don't have that in the USA. I'm going to see about that when I get home".

I think that the politicization of the religious right is nothing short of terrifying. I'm a history buff and I'm seeing a lot of comparisons to the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages, when Church leadership played politics with European monarchs, and no good came of it. The Founders were smart in trying to separate religion and politics.

The "Moral Majority" radicals have been entwining themselves around conservative politics since Reagan and Falwell made their deal prior to form the coalition which won the 1980 election. Liberty University has been churning out good little soldiers to go forth for God (see Jenna Ellis). They're seriously embedded into the Judiciary, and currently have control of the SC through the Federalist Society appointments made under the Trump Administration.

I asked a few of my friends from the mid-west and they essentially said it's hopeless. These evangelicals are never going to believe Democrats are anything but baby killing demons because that's what their pastors and their media is telling them. Thereafter, it's bias reinforcement all the way. My friends in Texas say that Texas politics is toxic.

The faithful believe their pastors, because they're called by God to serve him. If their pastor say the Democrats are baby killing monsters and atheists, that's God's word they're hearing. My minister always tells the congregation that it is our civic duty to vote, so make sure you do it. Not once ever has he or she ever told me who or what to vote for, or against.

The rest of the world is praying for your success, and I mean that most sincerely. If you fall, it doesn't bode well for the rest of us.

 

[Mac1958]

The rest of the world is standing by and watching in horror as this plays out. To me, the most frightening thing Donald Trump said during his presidency was when he congratulated Xi on becoming President for Life. "We don't have that in the USA. I'm going to see about that when I get home".

I think that the politicization of the religious right is nothing short of terrifying. I'm a history buff and I'm seeing a lot of comparisons to the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages, when Church leadership played politics with European monarchs, and no good came of it. The Founders were smart in trying to separate religion and politics.

The "Moral Majority" radicals have been entwining themselves around conservative politics since Reagan and Falwell made their deal prior to form the coalition which won the 1980 election. Liberty University has been churning out good little soldiers to go forth for God (see Jenna Ellis). They're seriously embedded into the Judiciary, and currently have control of the SC through the Federalist Society appointments made under the Trump Administration.

I asked a few of my friends from the mid-west and they essentially said it's hopeless. These evangelicals are never going to believe Democrats are anything but baby killing demons because that's what their pastors and their media is telling them. Thereafter, it's bias reinforcement all the way. My friends in Texas say that Texas politics is toxic.

The faithful believe their pastors, because they're called by God to serve him. If their pastor say the Democrats are baby killing monsters and atheists, that's God's word they're hearing. My minister always tells the congregation that it is our civic duty to vote, so make sure you do it. Not once ever has he or she ever told me who or what to vote for, or against.

The rest of the world is praying for your success, and I mean that most sincerely. If you fall, it doesn't bode well for the rest of us.

However much worse this gets, it will have been a self-inflicted wound. Our political system -- binary and controlled by big money -- incentivizes and rewards the very worst impulses of its participants, handing most of the power to the far ends of our political spectrum. It's why I've become a one-issue voter: We have to fix a system that literally discourages collaboration and innovation.

The misguided rage and paranoia you're seeing had been building for decades -- built and nurtured by talk radio, then Fox, then the internet. Most of us did not fully recognize or understand its depth and intensity. It exploded like a volcano, and still is, because one shameless opportunist recognized a massive and easily-influenced target market that he could manipulate and control.

I think that many of the grievances these people have are perfectly reasonable and defensible. But they have been driven into such a rage, and they have been taught that only pugilism can make a point, that all they care about is that their leaders "fight". And predictably, the leaders are doing just that, because pleasing the base is what is rewarded in our system. Attack only, collaboration is capitulation. Caveman politics.

Yeah, wish us luck. And you're right to be concerned about what happens here affecting other parts of the world. This is a dangerous moment.

 

[AntonToo]

Dims do a lot of rationalizing for dear leader biden

Like what?

What justice did he subvert? What pals did he pardon?

 

[BWK]

Show me the evidence he got, or shut up.

Already linked it. I'm not your secretary, and I don't care that you don't want to know anyway.

 

[BWK]

I guess Trump will have to pardon them again when he's re-elected.

He can't. He's going to jail himself, and he can't pardon them from state charges.

 

[BS Filter]

He can't. He's going to jail himself, and he can't pardon them from state charges.

Trump isn't going to jail, idiot. Grow up.

 

[Independent thinker]

Trump once said, “Then, I have an Article II, where I have to the right to do whatever I want as president.” It would appear no one in his admin or inner circle dared to inform him of his colossal misunderstanding of Article II powers. But he's finding out now.

But this thread isn't about the sordid MaL affair. It's about whether we all can agree the absolute power to pardon people possessed by the POTUS needs to be reformed?

One of the features of Trump's presidency was the extent to which he exposed weaknesses in the laws, rules, and protocols governing a prez's behavior. Weaknesses that existed because no one ever contemplated that a prez would so extensively exploit them. This article explores some of the areas in need of reform and suggests remedies to address them.

Repairing the Rule of Law: An Agenda for Post-Trump Reform

What should be done in a post-Trump world to restore the rule of law?

www.lawfareblog.com

One of them being.............-Pardon reform. There can be little doubt of two things. First, as currently constructed, the president’s pardon power is nearly absolute. Second, President Trump’s use of the pardon power has transgressed the Founders’ expectations. Indeed, the idea that a president might pardon his own criminal confederates (as is arguably the case with Roger Stone) is exactly why George Mason opposed the pardon power altogether. At some point, Congress might give serious consideration to a constitutional amendment that, for example, makes pardons illegal for individuals personally known to the president and makes the misuse of the power judicially reviewable.

As the author points out, Stone is the most glaring example of an abuse because he possessed information that related to Trump's exposure in the Mueller investigation. After making it clear to Stone his silence would be rewarded Stone was in fact pardoned. I can think of no other example of a previous prez so manifestly abusing his authority.

The question at hand being, can we agree no POTUS should be allowed to pardon someone who could act as a hostile witness to the prez in a civil or criminal case or in an impeachment trial?

Why are you so afraid of Trump? Why are you so afraid of letting voters decide who the next president is? Why do you want to suppress the votes of everyone who would vote for Trump? Why is your side trying to take democracy away?

 

[BWK]

We may never know this, but I wonder of part of this is the realization that they have been had by (what they should have easily seen was) a con man. And not just "had" in the traditional sense, but these people have really given their hearts and souls to him, and this. I can imagine a lot of anger from that, much of it based on self esteem.

I don't know. We may not know for a long time. I know they'll study this like they study cults (they already are), and study those who are able to find the will to leave it on their own.

I'm pretty sure they understand everything. You and I are not dumb, and you are very smart. These Trump fans aren't dumb either. They, like Trump, idolize the grift for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, it's self preservation. In other words, they know he's a con man, but they are willing to go along, because they have convinced themselves this is their best chance at self preservation. Second, they are simply greedy people. What does that mean? They want an exclusively white country, they need a slave class, and they want control of everything and everybody. And, if they need to kill others to get there, they wouldn't think it twice, especially if they know they can get away with it. They just need someone like Trump to make that happen. That's where the self preservation thing comes in. This explains for me why they feel so strongly about the need to scapegoat minority populations. (Voter suppression)! In other words, these folks are all about "ME.", and other races are not welcome. They are willing to kill others to satisfy the "ME.", make no mistake. That may sound hyperbolic, but I don't think so. These people are trying to fill a void, and they need strategies and scapegoats to achieve that end. For the "ME."

I often times, angrily chuckle to myself when I read the barrage of so called "values", these folks advertise about themselves, that always run counter to their actions. They are Christians, they are patriots, they are for blue lives matter, and they are for freedom. They are no more Christians than I am, they shit on our laws and institutions, and they show no allegiance to patriotism of country, while they try and strip every freedom we have with legislation. They use these smoke screens as a vehicle to get what they want. They want for the "ME." The problem is, the one's Trump controls who think they will get the same package he has, won't be getting theirs. But they are betting they will, because those are their wants and desires. And as long as Trump feeds them with trash talk, that makes them think he will deliver what they want, then they could care less what Trump does. So, what became of the good Christian, patriot, and freedom lover? LOL! They were never there to begin with. It's all about the "ME.", and minorities and any other boogey man that threatens that, is a target for elimination or extermination, if need be. Which is why these threats on our person, excelerate. A threat to Trump by way of the rule of law, is a threat to them.

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA or WE THE PEOPLE, lol, have zero meaning for these folks. But they'll tell you different. Watch what they do, not what they say. Then you'll know what their souls have decided to do regarding Trump. Personally, I think most have sold their soul to him, and they aren't turning back.

 

[Mac1958]

I'm pretty sure they understand everything. You and I are not dumb, and you are very smart. These Trump fans aren't dumb either. They, like Trump, idolize the grift for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, it's self preservation. In other words, they know he's a con man, but they are willing to go along, because they have convinced themselves this is their best chance at self preservation. Second, they are simply greedy people. What does that mean? They want an exclusively white country, they need a slave class, and they want control of everything and everybody. And, if they need to kill others to get there, they wouldn't think it twice, especially if they know they can get away with it. They just need someone like Trump to make that happen. That's where the self preservation thing comes in. This explains for me why they feel so strongly about the need to scapegoat minority populations. (Voter suppression)! In other words, these folks are all about "ME.", and other races are not welcome. They are willing to kill others to satisfy the "ME.", make no mistake. That may sound hyperbolic, but I don't think so. These people are trying to fill a void, and they need strategies and scapegoats to achieve that end. For the "ME."

I often times, angrily chuckle to myself when I read the barrage of so called "values", these folks advertise about themselves, that always run counter to their actions. They are Christians, they are patriots, they are for blue lives matter, and they are for freedom. They are no more Christians than I am, they shit on our laws and institutions, and they show no allegiance to patriotism of country, while they try and strip every freedom we have with legislation. They use these smoke screens as a vehicle to get what they want. They want for the "ME." The problem is, the one's Trump controls who think they will get the same package he has, won't be getting theirs. But they are betting they will, because those are their wants and desires. And as long as Trump feeds them with trash talk, that makes them think he will deliver what they want, then they could care less what Trump does. So, what became of the good Christian, patriot, and freedom lover? LOL! They were never there to begin with. It's all about the "ME.", and minorities and any other boogey man that threatens that, is a target for elimination or extermination, if need be. Which is why these threats on our person, excelerate. A threat to Trump by way of the rule of law, is a threat to them.

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA or WE THE PEOPLE, lol, have zero meaning for these folks. But they'll tell you different. Watch what they do, not what they say. Then you'll know what their souls have decided to do regarding Trump. Personally, I think most have sold their soul to him, and they aren't turning back.

Well, this is where I'm still unsure. I certainly understand your point about the "me" the "self". And this is one of the primary "values" that they have been conditioned to believe down to their bones.

So you believe that, on a conscious level, they know this is a con but have sold their soul for it and are just playing along? Most of these people feel they've been cheated, to be sure, and this is their giant FUCK YOU to the system they feel has wronged them. That's why they love their, uh, leaders to be so aggressive and hyperbolic and pugilistic. That behavior is part of the FUCK YOU.

What I'm not sure of is whether their awareness of the con is conscious or subconscious. In "real life", when I look these people in the eyes I see abject terror. Like if they don't "win" this "war" of theirs, they'll end up in concentration camps or worse. Is it possible that part of their rage is that they realize subconsciously that this is a con?

 

[Dragonlady]

Why are you so afraid of Trump? Why are you so afraid of letting voters decide who the next president is? Why do you want to suppress the votes of everyone who would vote for Trump? Why is your side trying to take democracy away?

The voters DECIDED in 2020. Trump refused to accept their decision and tried to overturn the vote.

 

[Independent thinker]

The voters DECIDED in 2020. Trump refused to accept their decision and tried to overturn the vote.

Why are you trying to suppress votes for 2024?

 

[BWK]

Trump isn't going to jail, idiot. Grow up.

Stay stupid my friend.

 

[BS Filter]

Stay stupid my friend.

Put your money where your mouth is. How much?

 

[BWK]

Well, this is where I'm still unsure. I certainly understand your point about the "me" the "self". And this is one of the primary "values" that they have been conditioned to believe down to their bones.

So you believe that, on a conscious level, they know this is a con but have sold their soul for it and are just playing along? Most of these people feel they've been cheated, to be sure, and this is their giant FUCK YOU to the system they feel has wronged them. That's why they love their, uh, leaders to be so aggressive and hyperbolic and pugilistic. That behavior is part of the FUCK YOU.

What I'm not sure of is whether their awareness of the con is conscious or subconscious. In "real life", when I look these people in the eyes I see abject terror. Like if they don't "win" this "war" of theirs, they'll end up in concentration camps or worse. Is it possible that part of their rage is that they realize subconsciously that this is a con?

For sure, I can't jump into their minds to know what they really think. I do think there are two things going on simultaneously though. Just don't hold me to it. These folks and their up bringings, probably are huge factors in their kind of thinking, right out the shoot. I'm referring to that self preservation they came upon from my previous post.

And then, along comes a con man/ mafia boss/ cultist who attempts to push them over the edge, by penetrating their psyche, with a sort of radical religion that preys on their weaknesses. What are those weaknesses? You already said it. They feel, by way of various circumstances, such as socio-economic inequality, that they too are victims in this game of life. And who's there to give them the list of grievances and scapegoats to blame for all that? Old Don the Con.

Personally, to answer your question of the conscious or subconscious, I think it's a mixed bag based on an individual basis. Mind you, my conclusions come from the gut, so don't hold me to it. I will say though, throughout my lifetime, my gut seldom fails me.

 

[BS Filter]

For sure, I can't jump into their minds to know what they really think. I do think there are two things going on simultaneously though. Just don't hold me to it. These folks and their up bringings, probably are huge factors in their kind of thinking, right out the shoot. I'm referring to that self preservation they came upon from my previous post.

And then, along comes a con man/ mafia boss/ cultist who attempts to push them over the edge, by penetrating their psyche, with a sort of radical religion that preys on their weaknesses. What are those weaknesses? You already said it. They feel, by way of various circumstances, such as socio-economic inequality, that they too are victims in this game of life. And who's there to give them the list of grievances and scapegoats to blame for all that? Old Don the Con.

Personally, to answer your question of the conscious or subconscious, I think it's a mixed bag based on an individual basis. Mind you, my conclusions come from the gut, so don't hold me to it. I will say though, throughout my lifetime, my gut seldom fails me.

Is Joe Biden having cognitive decline?

 

[BWK]

Is Joe Biden having cognitive decline?

What's that got to do with my post?

If we all live long enough, I'm sure most of us will experience some degree of decline. For the moment, Joe seems to be pretty sharp. I do think he is too old for a second term though.

 

[BS Filter]

What's that got to do with my post?

If we all live long enough, I'm sure most of us will experience some degree of decline. For the moment, Joe seems to be pretty sharp. I do think he is too old for a second term though.

Well, you're raving on and on about Trump supporters, so I was just wondering how in touch you are with the reality that your guy has no business being in the White House.

 

[Mac1958]

What's that got to do with my post?

He just wants to change the subject by putting you on the defensive.

I've spent the last six years watching this play out and listening to them carefully, trying to understand it, and I think what you and I have been discussing is essentially the situation. And unfortunately, there is plenty of historical context to back it up, and history shows it doesn't end well.

The one area that I still can't get my head around is the depth and intensity of adoration the street level rubes have for the person at the center of this. I know that most of MAGA media understands (and is greatly profiting from) the con, and I know that GQP politicos and politicians fully understand it. But the vast majority of the rubes are buying it, like children thinking that pro wrestling is real.

There is a deep, personal attachment here. A religious component, maybe. But this person, of all people on the planet. A blatant con man who is doing what he has always done. I swear, if this were a movie, this intensity of feelings wouldn't work with an audience. It wouldn't make sense. They'd have to add in a virus or a bacteria or alien or SOMETHING that explains it.

I'm still not there yet on understanding that part of this disaster.