Can someone explain why we can't just give freedom a chance?

Name a period in our history when Americans had more freedom than they have today......I'll wait

Name a time in our American history, except during the Civil War, WW1, and WW2, when Americans had LESS freedom than we have today..........we'll wait.

It's a shame to see a seemingly intelligent person (you), who is so drunk on the leftist Kool-Aid that he/she has lost any semblance of honesty, integrity, and objectivity.

Well in 1900 the govenrment all in all spent something like 5% of gdp.

Today it's over 40%.


Surely 40% of your income that the government takes from you on average in the long run counts as something? 40% of your work belongs to the government.

Meanwhile the general direction for regulations is also up.

Seems like you have the freedom to work your ass off for far a far smaller percentage of your actual earnings. But wait, that means that someone else now has the freedom to sit on their ass and do nothing to earn their keep.
 
If we had to write a new constitution tomorrow, it would look nothing like the current one.
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Hell, if this Congress was in charge of writing a new COTUS, all we would get would be how to name a post office.

True that! These fuckers can't even figure out how to balance a budget and pass it. Most of the bills they pass could be articulated in less than two pages, and yet most of them end up thousands of pages long, written in a language only lawyers can understand. I cannot imagine what a document outlining how to govern would look like. 'Specially since damned few of them have a clue how to govern, lead, or manage.

Written in a Language only Hypocrites ans Schemers can understand.
 
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Hell, if this Congress was in charge of writing a new COTUS, all we would get would be how to name a post office.

True that! These fuckers can't even figure out how to balance a budget and pass it. Most of the bills they pass could be articulated in less than two pages, and yet most of them end up thousands of pages long, written in a language only lawyers can understand. I cannot imagine what a document outlining how to govern would look like. 'Specially since damned few of them have a clue how to govern, lead, or manage.

Written in a Language only Hypocrites ans Schemers can understand.

I stand corrected. I was trying to find the correct descriptive words for whatever that is they use to craft their bills.
 
The federal government follows the Constitution.

horse-shit.jpg

Show me what they have done that has been found to be unconstitutional

Seriously? Have you even seen a quarter of the shit on this board?
 
you don't need an "amendment" to protect rights which already exist. and, for the record, civil rights legislation didn't amend the constitution.

They didn't need to because the Constitution already provided for civil rights. The problem was the government, like today, wasn't following the Constitution. The civil rights legislation in the 1960s was completely unnecessary. All the feds had to do was enforce the Constitution.
 
Name a period in our history when Americans had more freedom than they have today......I'll wait

Name a time in our American history, except during the Civil War, WW1, and WW2, when Americans had LESS freedom than we have today..........we'll wait.

It's a shame to see a seemingly intelligent person (you), who is so drunk on the leftist Kool-Aid that he/she has lost any semblance of honesty, integrity, and objectivity.

Well in 1900 the govenrment all in all spent something like 5% of gdp.

Today it's over 40%.


Surely 40% of your income that the government takes from you on average in the long run counts as something? 40% of your work belongs to the government.

Meanwhile the general direction for regulations is also up.

I prefer 2012 America to 1900 America
 
Exactly, kwc

The leftists believe the government was granted every power and then to be limited by specific law

The truth is the government was given expressly limited powers and charges, and to gain more the amendment process would be used

Liberal fairytale on the constitution.

Jefferson: Oh shit, we forgot to include a way for the government to justify anything it wants to do in the future.

Madison: No worries, let's just throw in a "general welfare" clause to cover anything not addressed and call it good.

Washington: I second the motion.

Franklin: Party on dood! :rock:

Jefferson Memorial

"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."
 
Jefferson Memorial

"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

I doubt anybody here disagrees with that. What is your point?
 
Yeah, you are probably right, at least if the Statist Progressive Totalitarian Cock Suckers had their way. The first thing they would do away with is the concept of Unalienable Rights. You know, Life, Liberty, Property, the Pursuit of Happiness, Freedom of Religion, Speech, the Right to Dissent, Free Will, Original Thought. I mean, whats more important to people like you, the will of the Collective, Right or Wrong, or Liberty and Justice? The Will of the Collective, of course, demonstrated by the long list of those thrown under the bus, for questioning or challenging your will. You Statist Prick that you are, are as much a product of your Society, as Our Founders were to Theirs, in Colonial Times, as much as Anyone was throughout time. The Difference between them and you, other than they had Spinal Chords, was and is that, They Tried to break out of the mold, and establish Justice, maintain it, and create an environment that would serve it and maintain it, honoring Free Will and Liberty. You, you elitist slug seek to establish a Society, where everything is controlled cradle to grave, 24/7, with one set of arbitrary rules for us, designed to give you and your friends unfair advantage, while you exempt yourselves from adhering to those same rules. Fuck You and the disrespect you show for our founders. When you find an honest moment within yourself, ask your self where did Slavery start? Where does it exist today? What are you doing to make the world a better place? Time to stop with the Propaganda Comrade, and maybe trying to earn an honest living.

Wow, does your doctor know you are off your medication?
 
Yeah, you are probably right, at least if the Statist Progressive Totalitarian Cock Suckers had their way. The first thing they would do away with is the concept of Unalienable Rights. You know, Life, Liberty, Property, the Pursuit of Happiness, Freedom of Religion, Speech, the Right to Dissent, Free Will, Original Thought. I mean, whats more important to people like you, the will of the Collective, Right or Wrong, or Liberty and Justice? The Will of the Collective, of course, demonstrated by the long list of those thrown under the bus, for questioning or challenging your will. You Statist Prick that you are, are as much a product of your Society, as Our Founders were to Theirs, in Colonial Times, as much as Anyone was throughout time. The Difference between them and you, other than they had Spinal Chords, was and is that, They Tried to break out of the mold, and establish Justice, maintain it, and create an environment that would serve it and maintain it, honoring Free Will and Liberty. You, you elitist slug seek to establish a Society, where everything is controlled cradle to grave, 24/7, with one set of arbitrary rules for us, designed to give you and your friends unfair advantage, while you exempt yourselves from adhering to those same rules. Fuck You and the disrespect you show for our founders. When you find an honest moment within yourself, ask your self where did Slavery start? Where does it exist today? What are you doing to make the world a better place? Time to stop with the Propaganda Comrade, and maybe trying to earn an honest living.

Wow, does your doctor know you are off your medication?

Not very big on Individual Liberty, Free Will, Independent Thought, are you Sparky. Picked that up loud and clear. I guess in your case , you could argue that you can't lose something you failed in having from the start, common sense, and reason. Hold that thought. ;)
 
Jefferson Memorial

"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

I doubt anybody here disagrees with that. What is your point?

We adapt to circumstance. Though the point he fails to make is the process, how that is done. We do not abandon principle consciously, in adapting to circumstance, but seek a Just path, in a Right Minded Society. The end does not justify abuse.
 
I'm afraid that is how things do work. A law is Constitutional until proven otherwise.
The courts are established to determine what is and what is not constitutional. That is the process that has worked for the last 235 years
You may not like it, but that's the way it is

And a RIGHT the courts gave themselves, and NOT thier intent.

You don't like Marbury vs Madison....change it
There is a Constitutional system in place to do just that. Otherwise ......live with it. It has worked for over 200 years
Marbury v Madison is a decision. It is not law.
 
Why can't the federal government just stick to the constitution? Since when has this become a bad thing? I don't understand...republicans complain, democrats complain, our whole system is just whiners with no real solution...when the solution is right in front of us. That's right. I am talking about the damn United States Constitution. All the rules are in place...but we don't follow them. The federal government grows and grows and grows, seizes power that by design the 10th amendment is supposed to protect, etc. etc. Maybe the reason why the country is declining economically, morally, etc. is because we strayed from our foundation...the foundation of liberty secured primarily by local government.

God help us.

That sounds great. Below is Article One Section Eight, what do you think that Congress is doing that is not covered in the article?

Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
Section 8 - Powers of Congress

<<Back | Table of Contents | Next>>

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
 
Why can't the federal government just stick to the constitution? Since when has this become a bad thing? I don't understand...republicans complain, democrats complain, our whole system is just whiners with no real solution...when the solution is right in front of us. That's right. I am talking about the damn United States Constitution. All the rules are in place...but we don't follow them. The federal government grows and grows and grows, seizes power that by design the 10th amendment is supposed to protect, etc. etc. Maybe the reason why the country is declining economically, morally, etc. is because we strayed from our foundation...the foundation of liberty secured primarily by local government.

God help us.

That sounds great. Below is Article One Section Eight, what do you think that Congress is doing that is not covered in the article?

Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
Section 8 - Powers of Congress

<<Back | Table of Contents | Next>>

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

For one, proposing Treaties that Undermine the Authority of the Constitution Itself, subjecting even Rulings of the Supreme Court to the Authority of the World court. What kind of an Idiot surrenders our Sovereignty in that way? Why should the World Court, and not Us decide what It's Jurisdiction is and is not? Why go there?
 
The federal government follows the Constitution. Americans are more free today than at any time in our history

Define freedom.

OK

Lets start with you are free not to be a slave
Women are free to vote and own property
Native Americans have the freedom of all citizens
Blacks are free to openly mingle and marry the person of their choice
Women are free to get any job they want
Gays are free in many states to marry the person they love

We are much more free than at any time in history
 
I will trade the gays and the womens thing to be able to smoke at work and at bars....

Your freedom to smoke ends at my nose

Not on someone else's private property where they own the place of business and can say what their patrons can and can not do on the premises.

It's an issue the government had no business being involved in, much less the authority to do so.
 

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