Can Palestinians Govern "Palestine?"

[Hollie]

Besides -- you're so deep into denying the Pali failings in this crisis to realize that the BIGGER threat are murders and public street executions that Hamas conducts in Gaza. There is no continued "purge" in the West Bank -- but it's a feature of life in Gaza.

There are hundreds of Hamas members in "PA" jails who have not violated any law.

You should fix that then. You are so wrapped into the problems of Pali nationalism, that you cannot think about all the real work that needs to be done for the Palis to a discover a better form of "zionism". And to finally decide to be "a nation" rather than stone-throwing martyrs.

Probably never gonna happen. Which is why I've accepted that others need to this for them. Whether it takes the form of "reservations" or vibrant city states is up to THEM. Not up to me or even YOU..

Some people deserve to have stones thrown at them.

That said:

The Palestinians are ignoring their so called leadership and are pursuing their own path to liberation.

That's anarchy, chaos, and self-destructive behavior. They get their act TOGETHER or they become another failed "indigenous people".. You can't wing it by 3000 yr old rules in a neighborhood like that.

You say that the Palestinian leaders suck.

The Palestinians agree with you.

Nonsense. Arafat II (Abbas) called off elections because the Fatah terrorists feared the Hamas terrorists would sweep the elections.

 

[Hollie]

Lamis Deek-jihadist groupie

 

[flacaltenn]

Besides -- you're so deep into denying the Pali failings in this crisis to realize that the BIGGER threat are murders and public street executions that Hamas conducts in Gaza. There is no continued "purge" in the West Bank -- but it's a feature of life in Gaza.

There are hundreds of Hamas members in "PA" jails who have not violated any law.

You should fix that then. You are so wrapped into the problems of Pali nationalism, that you cannot think about all the real work that needs to be done for the Palis to a discover a better form of "zionism". And to finally decide to be "a nation" rather than stone-throwing martyrs.

Probably never gonna happen. Which is why I've accepted that others need to this for them. Whether it takes the form of "reservations" or vibrant city states is up to THEM. Not up to me or even YOU..

Some people deserve to have stones thrown at them.

That said:

The Palestinians are ignoring their so called leadership and are pursuing their own path to liberation.

That's anarchy, chaos, and self-destructive behavior. They get their act TOGETHER or they become another failed "indigenous people".. You can't wing it by 3000 yr old rules in a neighborhood like that.

You say that the Palestinian leaders suck.

The Palestinians agree with you.

These are not stupid people. There are plenty of sharp minds that understand the world and their situation. But for DECADES now -- they've been raised to believe that "resistance" is their only option. And to blame every one of their failures on the US or Israel or somewhere other than that blame belongs.

They don't have to love their politicians. People rarely do. But they have to agree to unify and do the the hard work of establishing a nation. Because the West Bank is not gonna sit there for another 50 years without development and expansions. They NEED a deadline. And they need to WANT take responsibility for the improvement of future generations.

Problem is -- the culture doesn't value the trappings of modern life. That's why their preferred leadership style is more Arafat and less Abbas. Maybe they just need a couple dedicated all - powerful leaders instead of Parliament and Assembly and a "president".

 

[P F Tinmore]

Besides -- you're so deep into denying the Pali failings in this crisis to realize that the BIGGER threat are murders and public street executions that Hamas conducts in Gaza. There is no continued "purge" in the West Bank -- but it's a feature of life in Gaza.

There are hundreds of Hamas members in "PA" jails who have not violated any law.

You should fix that then. You are so wrapped into the problems of Pali nationalism, that you cannot think about all the real work that needs to be done for the Palis to a discover a better form of "zionism". And to finally decide to be "a nation" rather than stone-throwing martyrs.

Probably never gonna happen. Which is why I've accepted that others need to this for them. Whether it takes the form of "reservations" or vibrant city states is up to THEM. Not up to me or even YOU..

Some people deserve to have stones thrown at them.

That said:

The Palestinians are ignoring their so called leadership and are pursuing their own path to liberation.

Failing the Palestinian People: Lamis Deek at Reels for Radicals Palestinian Film Screening

That lady is an enemy of any self-governing Palestine. You may THINK she's a hero. But with the admission that the Palestinians are inherently "state-less people in a world of nation states" -- she BELITTLES them and marginalizes them to nothing but mere victims of modernity.

Which would be the mind-set of a very leftist NY lawyer who has never faced down a Hamas Human Rights violation in Gaza.

No nationalism, no unity, -----> no Palestine. That's just the facts PFT. If you want to believe that marginalizing the ABILITIES of the Palis to choose leadership and their will to BUILD a nation is a GOOD THING -- you've already doomed them to failure and obscurity and wasted lives.

First let me say that building a nation is not an option since Israel has been bulldozing and bombing everything and anything Palestinian since 1948.

What do you think she is doing wrong or right?

What do you think she should be doing?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

There is no group of people in the world that has such a negative attitude about themselves, as do the Arab Palestinians. The failures for nation building and positive development is nearly ALWAYS blamed on the Israelis. It is never a consequence of Arab Palestinians criminal behaviors.

In the case of the Arab Palestinian, there’s always someone else to blame for what their lack of achievement and the consequences for bad behaviors on the part of the Arab Palestinian. Constantly blaming the military, police and security countermeasures employed ---- and ---- the responses (bulldozing and bombing) to inappropriate behaviors (various hostile actions perpetrated by the Hostile Arab Palestinians) coming as a consequence of their actions is just one such trait that has retarded positive progress and the improvements and potential for nation building.

• The Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) are constantly engages in self-defeating talk which convinces themselves that someone is holding them back.

• Just watching the HoAP pawn their failures off on Israel, America and whoever else, is a mental failure that uses the excuse for the lack of knowledge skills and abilities to establish a peaceful and prosperous nation.

• The HoAP wants to protect their image as a perpetual victim and to express pessimism in an effort to ditch the blame for their inabilities on anyone, other then themselves.

• The HoAP set the conditions such that blame can be defined as HoAP holding Israel responsible for the misfortunes of the Palestinian people.
​

First let me say that building a nation is not an option since Israel has been bulldozing and bombing everything and anything Palestinian since 1948.

What do you think she is doing wrong or right?

What do you think she should be doing?

(COMMENT)

First, after the signing of the Armistice in 1949, there were really no major eruptions of hostilities between the Israelis and the HoAP until 1967. And the 1967 conflict was based on a provocative action taken by Arab League members.

And again, house demolition of suspected terrorists's residences was done, not as a penalty, but to prevent the residence from being used further to provide material support to terrorism.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

There is no group of people in the world that has such a negative attitude about themselves, as do the Arab Palestinians. The failures for nation building and positive development is nearly ALWAYS blamed on the Israelis. It is never a consequence of Arab Palestinians criminal behaviors.

In the case of the Arab Palestinian, there’s always someone else to blame for what their lack of achievement and the consequences for bad behaviors on the part of the Arab Palestinian. Constantly blaming the military, police and security countermeasures employed ---- and ---- the responses (bulldozing and bombing) to inappropriate behaviors (various hostile actions perpetrated by the Hostile Arab Palestinians) coming as a consequence of their actions is just one such trait that has retarded positive progress and the improvements and potential for nation building.

• The Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) are constantly engages in self-defeating talk which convinces themselves that someone is holding them back.

• Just watching the HoAP pawn their failures off on Israel, America and whoever else, is a mental failure that uses the excuse for the lack of knowledge skills and abilities to establish a peaceful and prosperous nation.

• The HoAP wants to protect their image as a perpetual victim and to express pessimism in an effort to ditch the blame for their inabilities on anyone, other then themselves.

• The HoAP set the conditions such that blame can be defined as HoAP holding Israel responsible for the misfortunes of the Palestinian people.
​

First let me say that building a nation is not an option since Israel has been bulldozing and bombing everything and anything Palestinian since 1948.

What do you think she is doing wrong or right?

What do you think she should be doing?

(COMMENT)

First, after the signing of the Armistice in 1949, there were really no major eruptions of hostilities between the Israelis and the HoAP until 1967. And the 1967 conflict was based on a provocative action taken by Arab League members.

And again, house demolition of suspected terrorists's residences was done, not as a penalty, but to prevent the residence from being used further to provide material support to terrorism.

Most Respectfully,
R

Maybe they should build a TV station.

 

[Shusha]

First let me say that building a nation is not an option since Israel has been bulldozing and bombing everything and anything Palestinian since 1948.

What do you think she is doing wrong or right?

What do you think she should be doing?

Stop. That is exactly the problem that flacaltenn is trying to point out to you. You are painting the Palestinians here as being without any agency to effect change on their own future. The Palestinians have to believe that the Palestinians can, in fact, build a nation. If they can't believe that -- if they can't at least have some hope of that -- they will never be able to do it.

That is the first thing they (and she and you) are doing wrong.

The second thing they (she, you) are doing wrong is denying the rights of one group of people and insisting that only one people have the sole rights. They have to find a way of accepting that there are two groups of people here who have rights to recognition. Whether that is in a two State solution or a one State solution is immaterial to the foundational idea that both peoples have rights in that land. Give up the idea that all of "Palestine" is to be an Arab Muslim nation.

The third thing they (she, you) are doing wrong is lying, exaggerating and changing the meanings of words. They need to tell the truth. Knock off with the emotional victimhood language. (for example, Israel hasn't bombed or bulldozed in Areas under Palestinian control (I'm leaving Gaza out of this as a lost cause for now) for decades. Decades.)

What Palestine (and I am talking the "West Bank" here, not Gaza) needs to do (in no particular order):


1. Invite Netanyahu to speak in Ramallah as he offered and start talking peace treaties with land swaps.
2. Start welcoming Jewish people into areas which may eventually be part of Palestine. These are taxpayers and nation-builders. Be neighborly with them.
2. Get out a map and decide which parts of Area C are vital to Palestinian interests and begin to delicately create facts on the ground. But ones which don't interfere with Israeli interests and best done with Israeli blessing.
3. Police the crap out of anyone who incites terror. The crap out of them. Seriously.
4. Play nice with Jordan and Egypt.
5. Encourage Jewish visitation and prayer to the Temple Mount. Create joint services or celebrations or peaceful picnics or whatever. Celebrate Jewish history in this place.
6. Offer Palestinians incentives to move out of parts of Area C in which Israel is heavily invested.
7. Make the checkpoints within what one hopes to be Palestine joint checkpoints. Police them in co-operation with Israel. Because you have the same goal -- to prevent anyone from attacking their neighbor.
8. Reject BDS. Embrace Israel investing in your country.

to be fair here are some ideas for what Israel should do (in no particular order):

Give the Palestinians chocolate in all of the parts of Area C that Israel intends to keep. (And by chocolate I mean water and electricity and roads and schools and hospitals and anything else they ask for or could possibly want). Make getting a building permit the easiest thing ever. Invest in their children. Educate them. Integrate the schools. Invite Jewish families there but make it a requirement that all children go to a joint Hebrew/Arab school. Send your really great teachers there. Raise children you are fluent in both cultures. And respect both cultures. Make sure all of the Palestinian families are employed and/or able to be self sufficient and/or receive equalization payments. Give them full access to Israel.

 

[Phoenall]

The territory was ceded to the control of the Allied Powers for the purpose of self-determination and self-government of various groups as they became capable of said government.​

No they didn't. Read Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne.

You make no sense. The intent of the Mandate trusteeship was to provide tutelage by advanced nations until such time as the provisionally recognized governments were able to stand alone. THAT is from Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, which I am fairly certain you are fond of quoting. That was the INTENT of the Mandate system. You can't possibly be arguing that this was NOT the intent of the Mandate.

What has Article 30 got to do with the intent of the Mandate system?

Are you meaning to say that Article 30 creates some sort of sovereignty or State? Are you saying that the boundaries of various territories under the Mandate can NEVER be changed because Article 30 "fixes" them permanently? How, exactly, does saying that all peoples who normally reside in a particular territory should become nationals of whatever new State is created there in any way affect boundaries or sovereignty?

Now I know you are confused.

That would be you using article 30 created the nation of palestine when it deals with the nationality of the people resident at a particular segment of time.

 

[Phoenall]

What treaty mention a "Jewish Palestine?"

Treaty of Sevres. Article 95.

Treaty of Sevres was not ratified.

Yeas it was when it was incorporated into the Treaty of Lausanne

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think you misread the tense. This statement was made in connection with the post-Agreement phase. Relative to the comment made by MJB12741: "The worst punishment Israel could inflict on the Palestinians would be self government,with self determination without having Israel to suck off of to support them any longer."

This is all about what happens after (if ever) the Israelis and the Palestinians agree and begin a withdrawal from the West Bank.

(COMMENT)

First, the return on US Dollar Investment given to the Palestinians is not now, nor expected to be in the future, about the protection of Israel; not even the US Security Assistance funding for PA Security Forces. It is about setting the conditions to meet Article 43 HR (law and order) prior to an agreed upon withdrawal from the West Bank.

View attachment 90425​

The effectiveness of U.S. assistance to the Palestinians in furthering U.S. policy objectives might be defined by answers to the following questions:

( Quote From U.S. Foreign Aid to the Palestinians CRS RS22967 18 MAR 16)
 How does it affect U.S. influence with Palestinians in working toward regional policy objectives?
 How does it address short-term (i.e., humanitarian) needs?
 How does it address longer-term development, governance, and reform efforts?​

Again, you misunderstand the various purposes for the various kinds of funding, and how the change in conditions changes the direction and focus of funding.

If the Palestinians were to come forth with acceptable conditions that actually (not theoretically) lead to a withdrawal, the US will in all probability, cut a substantial portion of funding to the PA (or successor government); simply because the US would not want that funding to be used in hostile activities against Israel. Likewise, the US would increase funding to Israel's defensive capabilities to offset the potential for staging Arab Forces (Hostile Arab Palestinians) within 9 miles of Netanya, 10 miles from Beersheba, and 11 miles from Tel Aviv.

Currently, the US is getting virtually no return on its investment from the US Dollars and equipment provided to the PA, relative to Israeli Security. In fact, one only needs to read this Discussion Group and watch as violent events occur and the low and order declines relative to the safety and security of Israeli Citizens. Incident levels are increasing --- not decreasing.

Most Respectfully,
R

Currently, the US is getting virtually no return on its investment from the US Dollars and equipment provided to the PA, relative to Israeli Security.​

You don't give military aid to a place that has no generally agreed upon govt. And is split between rival factions that want to kill each other. . Are you nutz? That shouldn't even BE on the table until the proper leadership and authorities are in place.

The security forces in the illegal "PA" in the West Bank is armed, paid, and trained by the US to take out Hamas and other resistance factions. The so called unity government wants to put those forces in Gaza. Of course Hamas is opposed to that. Hamas ran those US supported forces out of Gaza in 2007.

Besides -- you're so deep into denying the Pali failings in this crisis to realize that the BIGGER threat are murders and public street executions that Hamas conducts in Gaza. There is no continued "purge" in the West Bank -- but it's a feature of life in Gaza.

Israel's targeting killing was a big problem in Gaza. Hamas cracked down on collaborators now targeted killings are rare. Some of those worked for the "PA" and some worked directly for Israel.

You are taking things out of context.

And you have links to show this is the case, or are you just making it all up ?

With modern satellite imaging it is possible to read the print of a newspaper, so why cant Israel use this to target palestinian terrorists and criminals ?

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

There is no group of people in the world that has such a negative attitude about themselves, as do the Arab Palestinians. The failures for nation building and positive development is nearly ALWAYS blamed on the Israelis. It is never a consequence of Arab Palestinians criminal behaviors.

In the case of the Arab Palestinian, there’s always someone else to blame for what their lack of achievement and the consequences for bad behaviors on the part of the Arab Palestinian. Constantly blaming the military, police and security countermeasures employed ---- and ---- the responses (bulldozing and bombing) to inappropriate behaviors (various hostile actions perpetrated by the Hostile Arab Palestinians) coming as a consequence of their actions is just one such trait that has retarded positive progress and the improvements and potential for nation building.

• The Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) are constantly engages in self-defeating talk which convinces themselves that someone is holding them back.

• Just watching the HoAP pawn their failures off on Israel, America and whoever else, is a mental failure that uses the excuse for the lack of knowledge skills and abilities to establish a peaceful and prosperous nation.

• The HoAP wants to protect their image as a perpetual victim and to express pessimism in an effort to ditch the blame for their inabilities on anyone, other then themselves.

• The HoAP set the conditions such that blame can be defined as HoAP holding Israel responsible for the misfortunes of the Palestinian people.
​

First let me say that building a nation is not an option since Israel has been bulldozing and bombing everything and anything Palestinian since 1948.

What do you think she is doing wrong or right?

What do you think she should be doing?

(COMMENT)

First, after the signing of the Armistice in 1949, there were really no major eruptions of hostilities between the Israelis and the HoAP until 1967. And the 1967 conflict was based on a provocative action taken by Arab League members.

And again, house demolition of suspected terrorists's residences was done, not as a penalty, but to prevent the residence from being used further to provide material support to terrorism.

Most Respectfully,
R

Maybe they should build a TV station.

And here we go again with islamonazi propaganda and talking points.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think you misread the tense. This statement was made in connection with the post-Agreement phase. Relative to the comment made by MJB12741: "The worst punishment Israel could inflict on the Palestinians would be self government,with self determination without having Israel to suck off of to support them any longer."

This is all about what happens after (if ever) the Israelis and the Palestinians agree and begin a withdrawal from the West Bank.

(COMMENT)

First, the return on US Dollar Investment given to the Palestinians is not now, nor expected to be in the future, about the protection of Israel; not even the US Security Assistance funding for PA Security Forces. It is about setting the conditions to meet Article 43 HR (law and order) prior to an agreed upon withdrawal from the West Bank.

View attachment 90425​

The effectiveness of U.S. assistance to the Palestinians in furthering U.S. policy objectives might be defined by answers to the following questions:

( Quote From U.S. Foreign Aid to the Palestinians CRS RS22967 18 MAR 16)
 How does it affect U.S. influence with Palestinians in working toward regional policy objectives?
 How does it address short-term (i.e., humanitarian) needs?
 How does it address longer-term development, governance, and reform efforts?​

Again, you misunderstand the various purposes for the various kinds of funding, and how the change in conditions changes the direction and focus of funding.

If the Palestinians were to come forth with acceptable conditions that actually (not theoretically) lead to a withdrawal, the US will in all probability, cut a substantial portion of funding to the PA (or successor government); simply because the US would not want that funding to be used in hostile activities against Israel. Likewise, the US would increase funding to Israel's defensive capabilities to offset the potential for staging Arab Forces (Hostile Arab Palestinians) within 9 miles of Netanya, 10 miles from Beersheba, and 11 miles from Tel Aviv.

Currently, the US is getting virtually no return on its investment from the US Dollars and equipment provided to the PA, relative to Israeli Security. In fact, one only needs to read this Discussion Group and watch as violent events occur and the low and order declines relative to the safety and security of Israeli Citizens. Incident levels are increasing --- not decreasing.

Most Respectfully,
R

Currently, the US is getting virtually no return on its investment from the US Dollars and equipment provided to the PA, relative to Israeli Security.​

You don't give military aid to a place that has no generally agreed upon govt. And is split between rival factions that want to kill each other. . Are you nutz? That shouldn't even BE on the table until the proper leadership and authorities are in place.

The security forces in the illegal "PA" in the West Bank is armed, paid, and trained by the US to take out Hamas and other resistance factions. The so called unity government wants to put those forces in Gaza. Of course Hamas is opposed to that. Hamas ran those US supported forces out of Gaza in 2007.

Besides -- you're so deep into denying the Pali failings in this crisis to realize that the BIGGER threat are murders and public street executions that Hamas conducts in Gaza. There is no continued "purge" in the West Bank -- but it's a feature of life in Gaza.

There are hundreds of Hamas members in "PA" jails who have not violated any law.

LINKS

 

[Phoenall]

What treaty mention a "Jewish Palestine?"

Treaty of Sevres. Article 95.

Treaty of Sevres was not ratified.

Actually, yes it was, endorsed by the Ottoman's.

It was not ratified and was replaced by the Treaty of Lausanne.

It was incorporated with the treaty of Lausanne if you bother to check the details

 

[Phoenall]

You don't give military aid to a place that has no generally agreed upon govt. And is split between rival factions that want to kill each other. . Are you nutz? That shouldn't even BE on the table until the proper leadership and authorities are in place.

The security forces in the illegal "PA" in the West Bank is armed, paid, and trained by the US to take out Hamas and other resistance factions. The so called unity government wants to put those forces in Gaza. Of course Hamas is opposed to that. Hamas ran those US supported forces out of Gaza in 2007.

Besides -- you're so deep into denying the Pali failings in this crisis to realize that the BIGGER threat are murders and public street executions that Hamas conducts in Gaza. There is no continued "purge" in the West Bank -- but it's a feature of life in Gaza.

Israel's targeting killing was a big problem in Gaza. Hamas cracked down on collaborators now targeted killings are rare. Some of those worked for the "PA" and some worked directly for Israel.

You are taking things out of context.

I'm sure that what's the judge and jury said before they killed in public street executions. They are BRUTAL killers and not fun to live with. They are never gonna lead Palestine to statehood. They are gonna make the entire Pali cause stale and not viable.

Good points. I don't support Hamas' methods.

LIAR you post in support of them all the time

 

[Phoenall]

You don't give military aid to a place that has no generally agreed upon govt. And is split between rival factions that want to kill each other. . Are you nutz? That shouldn't even BE on the table until the proper leadership and authorities are in place.

The security forces in the illegal "PA" in the West Bank is armed, paid, and trained by the US to take out Hamas and other resistance factions. The so called unity government wants to put those forces in Gaza. Of course Hamas is opposed to that. Hamas ran those US supported forces out of Gaza in 2007.

Besides -- you're so deep into denying the Pali failings in this crisis to realize that the BIGGER threat are murders and public street executions that Hamas conducts in Gaza. There is no continued "purge" in the West Bank -- but it's a feature of life in Gaza.

There are hundreds of Hamas members in "PA" jails who have not violated any law.

You should fix that then. You are so wrapped into the problems of Pali nationalism, that you cannot think about all the real work that needs to be done for the Palis to a discover a better form of "zionism". And to finally decide to be "a nation" rather than stone-throwing martyrs.

Probably never gonna happen. Which is why I've accepted that others need to this for them. Whether it takes the form of "reservations" or vibrant city states is up to THEM. Not up to me or even YOU..

Some people deserve to have stones thrown at them.

That said:

The Palestinians are ignoring their so called leadership and are pursuing their own path to liberation.

LINKS ?

 

[Phoenall]

The security forces in the illegal "PA" in the West Bank is armed, paid, and trained by the US to take out Hamas and other resistance factions. The so called unity government wants to put those forces in Gaza. Of course Hamas is opposed to that. Hamas ran those US supported forces out of Gaza in 2007.

Besides -- you're so deep into denying the Pali failings in this crisis to realize that the BIGGER threat are murders and public street executions that Hamas conducts in Gaza. There is no continued "purge" in the West Bank -- but it's a feature of life in Gaza.

There are hundreds of Hamas members in "PA" jails who have not violated any law.

You should fix that then. You are so wrapped into the problems of Pali nationalism, that you cannot think about all the real work that needs to be done for the Palis to a discover a better form of "zionism". And to finally decide to be "a nation" rather than stone-throwing martyrs.

Probably never gonna happen. Which is why I've accepted that others need to this for them. Whether it takes the form of "reservations" or vibrant city states is up to THEM. Not up to me or even YOU..

Some people deserve to have stones thrown at them.

That said:

The Palestinians are ignoring their so called leadership and are pursuing their own path to liberation.

Failing the Palestinian People: Lamis Deek at Reels for Radicals Palestinian Film Screening

Islamonazi propaganda is not reality, so cant be used as evidence

 

[Phoenall]

Besides -- you're so deep into denying the Pali failings in this crisis to realize that the BIGGER threat are murders and public street executions that Hamas conducts in Gaza. There is no continued "purge" in the West Bank -- but it's a feature of life in Gaza.

There are hundreds of Hamas members in "PA" jails who have not violated any law.

You should fix that then. You are so wrapped into the problems of Pali nationalism, that you cannot think about all the real work that needs to be done for the Palis to a discover a better form of "zionism". And to finally decide to be "a nation" rather than stone-throwing martyrs.

Probably never gonna happen. Which is why I've accepted that others need to this for them. Whether it takes the form of "reservations" or vibrant city states is up to THEM. Not up to me or even YOU..

Some people deserve to have stones thrown at them.

That said:

The Palestinians are ignoring their so called leadership and are pursuing their own path to liberation.

That's anarchy, chaos, and self-destructive behavior. They get their act TOGETHER or they become another failed "indigenous people".. You can't wing it by 3000 yr old rules in a neighborhood like that.

You say that the Palestinian leaders suck.

The Palestinians agree with you.

So why dont they do something about it ?

 

[Phoenall]

There are hundreds of Hamas members in "PA" jails who have not violated any law.

You should fix that then. You are so wrapped into the problems of Pali nationalism, that you cannot think about all the real work that needs to be done for the Palis to a discover a better form of "zionism". And to finally decide to be "a nation" rather than stone-throwing martyrs.

Probably never gonna happen. Which is why I've accepted that others need to this for them. Whether it takes the form of "reservations" or vibrant city states is up to THEM. Not up to me or even YOU..

Some people deserve to have stones thrown at them.

That said:

The Palestinians are ignoring their so called leadership and are pursuing their own path to liberation.

Failing the Palestinian People: Lamis Deek at Reels for Radicals Palestinian Film Screening

That lady is an enemy of any self-governing Palestine. You may THINK she's a hero. But with the admission that the Palestinians are inherently "state-less people in a world of nation states" -- she BELITTLES them and marginalizes them to nothing but mere victims of modernity.

Which would be the mind-set of a very leftist NY lawyer who has never faced down a Hamas Human Rights violation in Gaza.

No nationalism, no unity, -----> no Palestine. That's just the facts PFT. If you want to believe that marginalizing the ABILITIES of the Palis to choose leadership and their will to BUILD a nation is a GOOD THING -- you've already doomed them to failure and obscurity and wasted lives.

First let me say that building a nation is not an option since Israel has been bulldozing and bombing everything and anything Palestinian since 1948.

What do you think she is doing wrong or right?

What do you think she should be doing?

LIAR as Israel has bent over backwards to help the arab muslims live in peace and prosperity. If they did not use homes to wage war against Israel then they would not be demolished and this started in 1967.

 

[flacaltenn]

First let me say that building a nation is not an option since Israel has been bulldozing and bombing everything and anything Palestinian since 1948.

What do you think she is doing wrong or right?

What do you think she should be doing?

Stop. That is exactly the problem that flacaltenn is trying to point out to you. You are painting the Palestinians here as being without any agency to effect change on their own future. The Palestinians have to believe that the Palestinians can, in fact, build a nation. If they can't believe that -- if they can't at least have some hope of that -- they will never be able to do it.

That is the first thing they (and she and you) are doing wrong.

The second thing they (she, you) are doing wrong is denying the rights of one group of people and insisting that only one people have the sole rights. They have to find a way of accepting that there are two groups of people here who have rights to recognition. Whether that is in a two State solution or a one State solution is immaterial to the foundational idea that both peoples have rights in that land. Give up the idea that all of "Palestine" is to be an Arab Muslim nation.

The third thing they (she, you) are doing wrong is lying, exaggerating and changing the meanings of words. They need to tell the truth. Knock off with the emotional victimhood language. (for example, Israel hasn't bombed or bulldozed in Areas under Palestinian control (I'm leaving Gaza out of this as a lost cause for now) for decades. Decades.)

What Palestine (and I am talking the "West Bank" here, not Gaza) needs to do (in no particular order):


1. Invite Netanyahu to speak in Ramallah as he offered and start talking peace treaties with land swaps.
2. Start welcoming Jewish people into areas which may eventually be part of Palestine. These are taxpayers and nation-builders. Be neighborly with them.
2. Get out a map and decide which parts of Area C are vital to Palestinian interests and begin to delicately create facts on the ground. But ones which don't interfere with Israeli interests and best done with Israeli blessing.
3. Police the crap out of anyone who incites terror. The crap out of them. Seriously.
4. Play nice with Jordan and Egypt.
5. Encourage Jewish visitation and prayer to the Temple Mount. Create joint services or celebrations or peaceful picnics or whatever. Celebrate Jewish history in this place.
6. Offer Palestinians incentives to move out of parts of Area C in which Israel is heavily invested.
7. Make the checkpoints within what one hopes to be Palestine joint checkpoints. Police them in co-operation with Israel. Because you have the same goal -- to prevent anyone from attacking their neighbor.
8. Reject BDS. Embrace Israel investing in your country.

to be fair here are some ideas for what Israel should do (in no particular order):

Give the Palestinians chocolate in all of the parts of Area C that Israel intends to keep. (And by chocolate I mean water and electricity and roads and schools and hospitals and anything else they ask for or could possibly want). Make getting a building permit the easiest thing ever. Invest in their children. Educate them. Integrate the schools. Invite Jewish families there but make it a requirement that all children go to a joint Hebrew/Arab school. Send your really great teachers there. Raise children you are fluent in both cultures. And respect both cultures. Make sure all of the Palestinian families are employed and/or able to be self sufficient and/or receive equalization payments. Give them full access to Israel.

Bravo.. I'd be here more often if THIS ^^^^ was the tone of the discussion. It cost NOTHING to constantly probe and problem solve for solutions. Even IF some subset of the problem solutions involve doing things unilaterally or in the interests of the Palis, who can't seem to get their act together.

I would add to your list -- the possibility of BOTH Jordan and Egypt kicking in some land to be established in the "swaps". Egypt holds the key to securely connecting the Gaza to West Bank. And Jordan already has a lot of land currently holding Pali refugees in less than desirable conditions. And uniting those (largely unwanted) refugees could be an asset to Jordan.

It's a matter of leadership. Israel, Jordan, Lebanon has it ---- and the Palis don't. But that shouldn't stop the neighborhood from spending a bit of political capital actually INVESTING in a better peaceful plan.. So you lose a little face by "being soft on Fatah" or "kissing up to Israel". That's what leadership is SUPPOSED to do.

And PERSONALLY -- I see HUGE advantages for Israel, Jordan, and Egypt to solve this stand-off and create a new Holy Land that is a better place to live.

Great post Shusha...

 

[Dogmaphobe]

You don't give military aid to a place that has no generally agreed upon govt. And is split between rival factions that want to kill each other. . Are you nutz? That shouldn't even BE on the table until the proper leadership and authorities are in place.

The security forces in the illegal "PA" in the West Bank is armed, paid, and trained by the US to take out Hamas and other resistance factions. The so called unity government wants to put those forces in Gaza. Of course Hamas is opposed to that. Hamas ran those US supported forces out of Gaza in 2007.

Besides -- you're so deep into denying the Pali failings in this crisis to realize that the BIGGER threat are murders and public street executions that Hamas conducts in Gaza. There is no continued "purge" in the West Bank -- but it's a feature of life in Gaza.

There are hundreds of Hamas members in "PA" jails who have not violated any law.

You should fix that then. You are so wrapped into the problems of Pali nationalism, that you cannot think about all the real work that needs to be done for the Palis to a discover a better form of "zionism". And to finally decide to be "a nation" rather than stone-throwing martyrs.

Probably never gonna happen. Which is why I've accepted that others need to this for them. Whether it takes the form of "reservations" or vibrant city states is up to THEM. Not up to me or even YOU..

Some people deserve to have stones thrown at them.

That said:

The Palestinians are ignoring their so called leadership and are pursuing their own path to liberation.

Yes, you certainly do, but such as you appear to be quite the feeble old man, and the act of throwing rocks at you would be an illegal act, I do hope nobody does so - even though you ARE a revoltingly hateful thing devoid of humanity.

As far as the made-up Arab group you support, the act of throwing rocks often involves the use of high powered sling shots or even heaving large boulders. The intent is to maim, injure and kill Jews which you support because you are nothing but a bag or protoplasm lacking a human soul, but these actions have nothing to do with "liberation" and everything to do with murderousness.