- Banned
- #301
It's typical that you spam the thread, absent any ability to address the salient points.
Can Palestinians Govern "Palestine?"
- Thread starter SAYIT
- Start date
It's typical that you spam the thread, absent any ability to address the salient points.
RoccoR
Gold Member
SAYIT, P F Tinmore, et al,
Yes, these are very good points to be illuminated.
Whether it is a fair reflection of the will of the Gazian People --- is NOT really the issue ∑or the issue.
IF the Gazian people vote in an open and fair election, then, as I expressed to our friend Hollie in Posting #288, it would demonstrate that the 2006 election was NOT a fluke; and that the Gazian People really do prefer to have the intent to provide material, economic and political support to HAMAS (including associate and affiliated Jihadists), a designated terrorist group. THEN at some point, the question will be asked if the Poeple of Gaza bare any responsibility for the pattern of criminal activity attributed to "Islamic Resistance Movement." This has an impact on the "reasonable man perspective" concerning the civil claims, war reparations, reimbursement petitions, compensatory payments, and the denial and dismissal of claims by Palestinian Decedents, associated with the past pattern of criminal behaviors by the Arab Palestinians. Practically and Politically, the reasonable man does not give value to the people involved in criminal behaviors.
America is blamed for damn near every conceivable pain, ailment, ill and wrong ever experienced by the Arab Palestinians. The quasi-attempt to bring some reasonable assemblance of a rational thought to the outcome of the 2006 Election outcome was to render some kind of help to the Arab Palestinians of Gaza. The US is not suppose to provide and assistance to Terrorists, even if they are a legitimately elected government. Of course, IF the Arab People of Gaza vote for and demonstrate the continued support for the Islamic Resistance Movement of Jihadist and Terrorists, THEN who can blame the US (and other nations) for countering Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them.
The link was the generic laundry list of conventions and international laws against those actions that have been taken by the Arab Palestinians, including the Islamic Resistance Movement.
Without regard to the actual election itself, democracy does not start with an election, or end with an election. If the Arab Palestinians hold an election, but never execute the outcome of that election, and are unable to hold a legally mandated follow-on election ---- THEN, it is not a democracy.
Now, IF the Arab Palestinians want to claim that the US exerted such influece that the Arab Palestinians were unable to organize themselves to follow the commitment in the Basic Law --- THEN: The answer to the question of the threat: Can-palestinians-govern-Palestine? --- becomes simple. NO! Whether the Arab Palestinians wnat to blame that on the US (or not) is an entirely different question. The answer is no because the Arab Palestinians did not (and have not) been able to demonstrate that they have the knowledge, skills and abilities to organize themselves and follow the Basic Law. No matter what excuse the Arab Palestinian may present --- in the end, that simple truth expresses it all.
Most Respectfully,
R
Yes, these are very good points to be illuminated.
(COMMENT)
Whether it is a fair reflection of the will of the Gazian People --- is NOT really the issue ∑or the issue.
IF the Gazian people vote in an open and fair election, then, as I expressed to our friend Hollie in Posting #288, it would demonstrate that the 2006 election was NOT a fluke; and that the Gazian People really do prefer to have the intent to provide material, economic and political support to HAMAS (including associate and affiliated Jihadists), a designated terrorist group. THEN at some point, the question will be asked if the Poeple of Gaza bare any responsibility for the pattern of criminal activity attributed to "Islamic Resistance Movement." This has an impact on the "reasonable man perspective" concerning the civil claims, war reparations, reimbursement petitions, compensatory payments, and the denial and dismissal of claims by Palestinian Decedents, associated with the past pattern of criminal behaviors by the Arab Palestinians. Practically and Politically, the reasonable man does not give value to the people involved in criminal behaviors.
(COMMENT)
America is blamed for damn near every conceivable pain, ailment, ill and wrong ever experienced by the Arab Palestinians. The quasi-attempt to bring some reasonable assemblance of a rational thought to the outcome of the 2006 Election outcome was to render some kind of help to the Arab Palestinians of Gaza. The US is not suppose to provide and assistance to Terrorists, even if they are a legitimately elected government. Of course, IF the Arab People of Gaza vote for and demonstrate the continued support for the Islamic Resistance Movement of Jihadist and Terrorists, THEN who can blame the US (and other nations) for countering Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them.
(COMMENT)
The link was the generic laundry list of conventions and international laws against those actions that have been taken by the Arab Palestinians, including the Islamic Resistance Movement.
(COMMENT)
Without regard to the actual election itself, democracy does not start with an election, or end with an election. If the Arab Palestinians hold an election, but never execute the outcome of that election, and are unable to hold a legally mandated follow-on election ---- THEN, it is not a democracy.
Now, IF the Arab Palestinians want to claim that the US exerted such influece that the Arab Palestinians were unable to organize themselves to follow the commitment in the Basic Law --- THEN: The answer to the question of the threat: Can-palestinians-govern-Palestine? --- becomes simple. NO! Whether the Arab Palestinians wnat to blame that on the US (or not) is an entirely different question. The answer is no because the Arab Palestinians did not (and have not) been able to demonstrate that they have the knowledge, skills and abilities to organize themselves and follow the Basic Law. No matter what excuse the Arab Palestinian may present --- in the end, that simple truth expresses it all.
Most Respectfully,
R
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P F Tinmore
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There you go again trying to mislead the people.
You imply that the people in Gaza elected Hamas to be the government in Gaza. That is false. Hamas won the nationwide elections in all of Palestine. (The West Bank and Gaza.) They were the majority party in the Palestinian Authority.
You imply that the Palestinians were trying to pass the blame onto the US. However, my report was from a journalist in Britain. There are other similar reports from other countries. And these reports match the facts on the ground so you cannot refute them.
Most of your post was just your usual slime against the Palestinians.
- Thread starter
- #304
While the VF article has many elements of a hit piece on the US - journalists in Europe are big on that - I'll not argue its veracity or its conclusions. Instead I will note that the article illuminates the Quartet's (the US, the EU, Russia & the UN) reaction to the election of a known terrorist organization - one whose own charter specifically rejects peaceful coexistence with Israel - in the Territories and the impact of their election on the prospects for Mideast peace.
The article makes clear Iranian influence on the Muslim Bro-hood affiliated Hamas (for which Iran pays handsomely) and the Quartet's (and Fatah's) realization that what was left of the progress and hope initiated at Oslo would be wiped out.
In effect, the US was desperate to salvage what remained of Oslo as the basis of new peace talks.
What a horrible agenda!
The actions of both Hamas and Fatah in the subsequent violence provided further proof that neither is capable of organizing the rule-of-law gov't or society which the Pals so desperately need if they are to establish a state and self-rule. Simply declaring a Palestinian State is not sufficient.
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P F Tinmore
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The US only believes in democracy when the people they like get elected.
RoccoR
Gold Member
P F Tinmore, et al,
You are the one trying to mislead the reader.
Yes everyone knows that the 2006 elections were national elections. And everyone understands:
The result was a victory for Hamas, who won with 74 seats of the 132 seats, whilst the ruling Fatah won just 45. In terms of votes received, Hamas took 44.45% of the vote, whilst Fatah received 41.43% and of the Electoral Districts, Hamas party candidates received 41.73% and Fatah party candidates received 36.96%. The parliament was inaugurated on 18 February 2006.
This is so well known that it's "Wikipedia" common.
I give readers and discussion group member credit for common knowledge and publicly known information.
Hamas wins Palestinian election
Hamas was founded in 1987.... The Palestinian Authority was established as a limited self-government under the Oslo Accord of the West Bank and Gaza. Hamas condemned the accords, in which the PLO gave Israel its formal recognition.
It is not uncommon for you to flip-flop. You're going to type here that you didn't complain that the US Security Assistance didn't play a role. That you did not claim that the US attempted to undermine the outcome and start a conflict between HAMAS and FATAH.
PA official to Haniyeh: Change policies or be reduced to mayor of Gaza City.
The new Hamas cabinet is determined to retain its powers despite Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas's attempts to undermine it, PA Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh declared on Saturday.
Most Respectfully,
R
You are the one trying to mislead the reader.
Yes everyone knows that the 2006 elections were national elections. And everyone understands:
The result was a victory for Hamas, who won with 74 seats of the 132 seats, whilst the ruling Fatah won just 45. In terms of votes received, Hamas took 44.45% of the vote, whilst Fatah received 41.43% and of the Electoral Districts, Hamas party candidates received 41.73% and Fatah party candidates received 36.96%. The parliament was inaugurated on 18 February 2006.
I give readers and discussion group member credit for common knowledge and publicly known information.
Hamas wins Palestinian election
(COMMENT)
Hamas was founded in 1987.... The Palestinian Authority was established as a limited self-government under the Oslo Accord of the West Bank and Gaza. Hamas condemned the accords, in which the PLO gave Israel its formal recognition.
(COMMENT)
It is not uncommon for you to flip-flop. You're going to type here that you didn't complain that the US Security Assistance didn't play a role. That you did not claim that the US attempted to undermine the outcome and start a conflict between HAMAS and FATAH.
PA official to Haniyeh: Change policies or be reduced to mayor of Gaza City.
The new Hamas cabinet is determined to retain its powers despite Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas's attempts to undermine it, PA Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh declared on Saturday.
Most Respectfully,
R
P F Tinmore
Diamond Member
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The Palestinian Authority was established as a limited self-government under the Oslo Accord of the West Bank and Gaza. Hamas condemned the accords, in which the PLO gave Israel its formal recognition.
Indeed, Hamas was ahead of the curve. Edward Said was against it also as were many knowledgeable people.
Now that the truth about Oslo is getting out, it is universally hated.
LRB · Edward Said · The Morning After
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- Banned
- #308
Oh, my. Another conspiracy theory.
P F Tinmore
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Hamas are not terrorists in Palestine where they were elected. That terrorist thing is merely third grade, political name calling.
The peace talks are a farce. They are the epitome of Einstein's version of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting different results. The talks are designed to fail. Things like rights, justice, or international law will never cross the lips of those phonies in the peace process.
- Banned
- #310
I suspect most people understand that an Islamic terrorist franchise is not considered as such by practitioners of the same ideology, cult. However, actions speak with the utmost clarity and denial of the goals of Hamas is certainly third grade behavior when their Charter clearly states their intended aim and their actions support their Charter.
And yes, Peace Partners™ and Roadmaps to Nowhere™ certainly are a farce when Islamic terrorist franchises such as Hamas are involved in a "peace process" while still adherent to the goals of their fascist politico-religious cult.
P F Tinmore
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Hamas will protect the Palestinian's rights while Abbas will give away the store. That is why Hamas does not have a seat at the table.
- Banned
- #312
Lovely. Hamas commits acts of terrorism directed at israel and the Arabs-Moslems who put Hamas into power die in the Israeli retaliation.
Flail your Pom Poms.
RoccoR
Gold Member
P F Tinmore, et al,
I don't think anyone was hiding the truth about the Oslo Accords. It is not that the "truth about Oslo is getting out," it is about that how the situation has evolved --- and the newer wants and needs that have come about in the last 20 years.
Recognition of Israel (as a Sovereign Nation and Jewish State) was a key component then --- and --- is a key component now. It who hated the Oslo Accords more (or less) really doesn't make a bit of difference. And IF HAMAS (the Islamic Resistance Movement) was to survive, THEN: Peace and Progress could not. There is no need for a Resistance Movement" of any kind if there is peace.
Over that last 20 years, when HAMAS was formalizing its objective, the approach to success deepened and broadened as it expanded its leverage and control over Palestinian society improved.
No strategy and no treaty, accord or arrangement is prefect; least of all the Oslo Accords. But it did threaten those that wanted to climb the ladder of power which brought with it them the twin seductions of riches and influence. Fatah was then and appears now to be corrupt, incompetent and—at best—ambivalent about its renunciation of terrorism. Nevertheless, it is important to international community that success have a secular and nationalist component (Two-State) represented in the Palestinian Peace model. This was not likely in the HAMAS model; then or now.
The HAMAS model of Palestine was unreasonable and unacceptable. The Fatah Model, while not prefect, was much better than that offered by HAMAS.
You can criticize the Oslo Accords all you want, but under the Oslo Accords Israel survives as a sovereign nation and a Jewish State. In the HAMAS model it does not. Not then and not now.
Most Respectfully,
R
I don't think anyone was hiding the truth about the Oslo Accords. It is not that the "truth about Oslo is getting out," it is about that how the situation has evolved --- and the newer wants and needs that have come about in the last 20 years.
(COMMENT)
Recognition of Israel (as a Sovereign Nation and Jewish State) was a key component then --- and --- is a key component now. It who hated the Oslo Accords more (or less) really doesn't make a bit of difference. And IF HAMAS (the Islamic Resistance Movement) was to survive, THEN: Peace and Progress could not. There is no need for a Resistance Movement" of any kind if there is peace.
Over that last 20 years, when HAMAS was formalizing its objective, the approach to success deepened and broadened as it expanded its leverage and control over Palestinian society improved.
No strategy and no treaty, accord or arrangement is prefect; least of all the Oslo Accords. But it did threaten those that wanted to climb the ladder of power which brought with it them the twin seductions of riches and influence. Fatah was then and appears now to be corrupt, incompetent and—at best—ambivalent about its renunciation of terrorism. Nevertheless, it is important to international community that success have a secular and nationalist component (Two-State) represented in the Palestinian Peace model. This was not likely in the HAMAS model; then or now.
The HAMAS model of Palestine was unreasonable and unacceptable. The Fatah Model, while not prefect, was much better than that offered by HAMAS.
You can criticize the Oslo Accords all you want, but under the Oslo Accords Israel survives as a sovereign nation and a Jewish State. In the HAMAS model it does not. Not then and not now.
Most Respectfully,
R
RoccoR
Gold Member
P F Tinmore, et al,
HAMAS has a whole host of leadership bodies that perform various functions and tasks; including: political, military, and social functions. Whether you call HAMAS a Terrorist Organization or an Armed Resistance, the outcome is exactly the same. It is ridiculous to attempt to argue that the tacts employed by HAMAS since 1988 (nearly three decades) has not committed an offenses within the meaning of unlawfully and intentionally targeting of places, lethal device in, into or against a place of public use, government facility, a public transportation systems or an infrastructure facilities:
a) With the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury; or
b) With the intent to cause extensive destruction of such a place, facility or system, where such destruction results in or is likely to result in major economic loss.
This is true in Article 68 of the GCIV as well as Article 2 of the International Convention on the Suppression of Terrorist Bombing. [http://treaties.un.org/doc/db/Terrorism/english-18-9.pdf]
HAMAS are self-proclaimed Jihadist and extremists, which includes members of Palestinian Islamic Jihad and affiliated groups, having intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, and in particular, the Arab-Israeli Conflict to achieve what could not be achieved though peaceful means.
Your attempt (or the general Palestinian attempt) to down play, devalue and marginalize the many attacks against the Jewish People is simply another example of how the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) attempts to devalue the Jewish People (subordinate) the Jewish People in respect to the HoAP.
The concept that "peace talks are a farce" is merely a variation on the HAMAS Theme and Mantra that:
• Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.
• There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.
While your application of the Einstein Quote is correct, your tagging is wrong. The Arab Palestinian has been attempting to resolve the disputes through terrorism ever since the Arab Higher Committee communicated the threat in 1948.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.; but it sounds very much like the HAMAS Theme and Mantra.
If the Talks succeed, then the need need for a terrorist based "Resistance Movement" like HAMAS fades away.
Most Respectfully,
R
HAMAS has a whole host of leadership bodies that perform various functions and tasks; including: political, military, and social functions. Whether you call HAMAS a Terrorist Organization or an Armed Resistance, the outcome is exactly the same. It is ridiculous to attempt to argue that the tacts employed by HAMAS since 1988 (nearly three decades) has not committed an offenses within the meaning of unlawfully and intentionally targeting of places, lethal device in, into or against a place of public use, government facility, a public transportation systems or an infrastructure facilities:
a) With the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury; or
b) With the intent to cause extensive destruction of such a place, facility or system, where such destruction results in or is likely to result in major economic loss.
This is true in Article 68 of the GCIV as well as Article 2 of the International Convention on the Suppression of Terrorist Bombing. [http://treaties.un.org/doc/db/Terrorism/english-18-9.pdf]
HAMAS are self-proclaimed Jihadist and extremists, which includes members of Palestinian Islamic Jihad and affiliated groups, having intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, and in particular, the Arab-Israeli Conflict to achieve what could not be achieved though peaceful means.
Your attempt (or the general Palestinian attempt) to down play, devalue and marginalize the many attacks against the Jewish People is simply another example of how the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) attempts to devalue the Jewish People (subordinate) the Jewish People in respect to the HoAP.
(COMMENT)
The concept that "peace talks are a farce" is merely a variation on the HAMAS Theme and Mantra that:
• Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.
• There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.
While your application of the Einstein Quote is correct, your tagging is wrong. The Arab Palestinian has been attempting to resolve the disputes through terrorism ever since the Arab Higher Committee communicated the threat in 1948.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.; but it sounds very much like the HAMAS Theme and Mantra.
If the Talks succeed, then the need need for a terrorist based "Resistance Movement" like HAMAS fades away.
Most Respectfully,
R
RoccoR
Gold Member
P F Tinmore, et al,
The "Protection of Rights" means very little if the people make no improvement in the standard of living, cultural development or future is mired in conflict.
You don't fix a seat at the dining table if there is a guest has announced they have no intention to eat. So why would you fix a place at the Peace Talks Table if HAMAS has announced that Jihad is the only solution?
Most Respectfully,
R
The "Protection of Rights" means very little if the people make no improvement in the standard of living, cultural development or future is mired in conflict.
(COMMENT)
You don't fix a seat at the dining table if there is a guest has announced they have no intention to eat. So why would you fix a place at the Peace Talks Table if HAMAS has announced that Jihad is the only solution?
Most Respectfully,
R
P F Tinmore
Diamond Member
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The HAMAS model of Palestine was unreasonable and unacceptable. The Fatah Model, while not prefect, was much better than that offered by HAMAS.
Indeed, Israel prefers the Palestinians who will give away the store.
P F Tinmore
Diamond Member
- Dec 6, 2009
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The HAMAS model of Palestine was unreasonable and unacceptable. The Fatah Model, while not prefect, was much better than that offered by HAMAS.
Indeed, Israel prefers the Palestinians who will give away the store.
If the Talks succeed, then the need need for a terrorist based "Resistance Movement" like HAMAS fades away.
Most intelligent thing you have said in a long time. Israelis say that you cannot make peace with Hamas. However, as you imply, if there was peace Hamas would have no reason to be. It would probably just revert back to being a charitable organization.
RoccoR
Gold Member
P F Tinmore, et al,
One thing you have to keep in mind.
The threat presented by the Arab Higher Committee in 1948, which expressed the oath of a continued struggle is more than 30 years old; and is carried on today in the Covenant of HAMAS. If the Arab Palestinians follow that path, pretty soon there will be nothing left for the Palestinian.
Most Respectfully,
R
One thing you have to keep in mind.
(COMMENT)
The threat presented by the Arab Higher Committee in 1948, which expressed the oath of a continued struggle is more than 30 years old; and is carried on today in the Covenant of HAMAS. If the Arab Palestinians follow that path, pretty soon there will be nothing left for the Palestinian.
Most Respectfully,
R
P F Tinmore
Diamond Member
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Indeed, Israel will continue its colonial project until there is nothing left of Palestine.
RoccoR
Gold Member
P F Tinmore, et al,
Well --- Not exactly.
Not that it will matter in a few years.
Israel is no interested in acquiring territory which has:
Most Respectfully,
R
Well --- Not exactly.
(COMMENT)
Not that it will matter in a few years.
Israel is no interested in acquiring territory which has:
- Unprofitable production potential.
- Containing a population that has no means of support.
- A People that are patriotically unstable and politically dangerous.
Most Respectfully,
R
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