Can a orthodox or catholic be a born again Christian?

[norwegen]

You don't have to believe Jesus if you don't want to. That's your prerogative.

I know where you got it from.

I don’t believe they did. It’s a value judgement.

Jesus did believe they would.

If you wish to disagree with Jesus, that's your prerogative.

Did he?

Yes.

Can you not read?

...whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing and they will do even greater things than these...

Is this the verse you believe supports your assertion?

When you say you don't believe they did greater things than Jesus, is that where you got this "value judgment" from?

 

[ding]

I know where you got it from.

I don’t believe they did. It’s a value judgement.

Jesus did believe they would.

If you wish to disagree with Jesus, that's your prerogative.

Did he?

Yes.

Can you not read?

...whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing and they will do even greater things than these...

Is this the verse you believe supports your assertion?

When you say you don't believe they did greater things than Jesus, is that where you got this "value judgment" from?

No.

You have taken a conditional verse which was not directed to anyone specific and made it unconditional and applied it to specific individuals.

Furthermore, you make the claim that the apostles did greater things than Christ without making an actual accounting comparing the accomplishments.

My value judgement is based on accomplishments. Tell me what accomplishments of man has been greater than the accomplishments of God?

 

[norwegen]

Jesus did believe they would.

If you wish to disagree with Jesus, that's your prerogative.

Did he?

Yes.

Can you not read?

...whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing and they will do even greater things than these...

Is this the verse you believe supports your assertion?

When you say you don't believe they did greater things than Jesus, is that where you got this "value judgment" from?

No.

You have taken a conditional verse which was not directed to anyone specific and made it unconditional and applied it to specific individuals.

First, Christ is directing his word specifically to the apostles.

Second, I have not made anything unconditional. The apostles believed in Christ; they did greater things than he. That's the text; if you wish not to believe that, that's your prerogative.

Third, to the original point, Jesus ministered to Israel, begrudgingly and sparingly to anyone else. Proselyte and pagan conversions came later.

 

[zaangalewa]

He tried to reform it. All you have to do is look at his ministry. He first ministered to the Jews.

He brought the kingdom of God exclusively to Israel. Dogs, pigs, and other assorted evildoers did not appear to be his to harvest.

His followers would do the greater things than he did. His followers would be the ones to bring it to the world.

Then why not worship them?

Go ahead. No doubt they deserve the reverence we bestow on them already.

However, they did not plant anything. They are not the ones by whom the foolishness of the past is over. They are not the ones who suffered and by whom God's glory manifests on the earth.

Jesus commissioned them. They did not commission him.

Exactly. That’s why I’m surprised you believe they did greater things than him.

You don't have to believe Jesus if you don't want to. That's your prerogative.

I don't know, where from you take your confidence that you are right and others are wrong in this context. Jesus was a man (and was also god), who spoke with people. What he said had to be understandable to this people. So he spoke "Jewish" with the Jews, because he was a Jew. But it also had happened something in this process. Something what had changed the whole world.

When you compare this for example with a minimal invasive operation (problem of medicine) then a doctor needs the permission of the patient to do what's necessary to do (what's in this case not really a problem of medicine or natural laws - but a problem of social norms). So when the medical doctor is doing what he has to do - in this case to have to die on him own on a cross like a criminal and to come back from death - and the patient becomes more sane because of this, travels around the world and discovers for example America - how do you know that this was not in the thoughts of this very special medical - better to say spiritual - healer .... ?

 

[ding]

Did he?

Yes.

Can you not read?

...whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing and they will do even greater things than these...

Is this the verse you believe supports your assertion?

When you say you don't believe they did greater things than Jesus, is that where you got this "value judgment" from?

No.

You have taken a conditional verse which was not directed to anyone specific and made it unconditional and applied it to specific individuals.

First, Christ is directing his word specifically to the apostles.

Second, I have not made anything unconditional. The apostles believed in Christ; they did greater things than he. That's the text; if you wish not to believe that, that's your prerogative.

Third, to the original point, Jesus ministered to Israel, begrudgingly and sparingly to anyone else. Proselyte and pagan conversions came later.

What did they do that was greater? Didn’t you yourself say that:

they did not plant anything. They are not the ones by whom the foolishness of the past is over. They are not the ones who suffered and by whom God's glory manifests on the earth.

Jesus commissioned them. They did not commission him.

So how can they have accomplished anything greater than Christ?

Belief is tricky. If we truly believed that God will judge us would we do all the things we do?

I don’t know how you can argue that you know what someone else truly believes.

So what things did they do that was greater than what Jesus did?

Yes, Jesus ministered to his people first. So what? Why do you believe this was wrong? Or diminished his ministry?

You say he begrudgingly ministered to others, but I don’t know what that is based upon. I say he ministered to others after he ministered to his people first. We don’t know what would have happened next had Israel accepted his ministry. How do you know his teaching wouldn’t have been to spread the good news to everyone through his people?

 

[norwegen]

Yes.

Can you not read?

...whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing and they will do even greater things than these...

Is this the verse you believe supports your assertion?

When you say you don't believe they did greater things than Jesus, is that where you got this "value judgment" from?

No.

You have taken a conditional verse which was not directed to anyone specific and made it unconditional and applied it to specific individuals.

First, Christ is directing his word specifically to the apostles.

Second, I have not made anything unconditional. The apostles believed in Christ; they did greater things than he. That's the text; if you wish not to believe that, that's your prerogative.

Third, to the original point, Jesus ministered to Israel, begrudgingly and sparingly to anyone else. Proselyte and pagan conversions came later.

What did they do that was greater? Didn’t you yourself say that:

they did not plant anything. They are not the ones by whom the foolishness of the past is over. They are not the ones who suffered and by whom God's glory manifests on the earth.

Jesus commissioned them. They did not commission him.

So what things did they do that was greater than what Jesus did?

I already answered this.

Even if I had no answer, I wouldn't discount the Lord's pronouncement as a "value judgment," or worse, disbelieve him altogether.

 

[ding]

First, Christ is directing his word specifically to the apostles.

Christ was talking to the apostles. If he had directed this comment solely to them he wouldn’t have said whoever. He would have said you or you guys.

 

[norwegen]

First, Christ is directing his word specifically to the apostles.

Christ was talking to the apostles. If he had directed this comment solely to them he wouldn’t have said whoever. He would have said you or you guys.

I never said the Scriptures had no application for other generations or peoples.

 

[ding]

...whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing and they will do even greater things than these...

Is this the verse you believe supports your assertion?

When you say you don't believe they did greater things than Jesus, is that where you got this "value judgment" from?

No.

You have taken a conditional verse which was not directed to anyone specific and made it unconditional and applied it to specific individuals.

First, Christ is directing his word specifically to the apostles.

Second, I have not made anything unconditional. The apostles believed in Christ; they did greater things than he. That's the text; if you wish not to believe that, that's your prerogative.

Third, to the original point, Jesus ministered to Israel, begrudgingly and sparingly to anyone else. Proselyte and pagan conversions came later.

What did they do that was greater? Didn’t you yourself say that:

they did not plant anything. They are not the ones by whom the foolishness of the past is over. They are not the ones who suffered and by whom God's glory manifests on the earth.

Jesus commissioned them. They did not commission him.

So what things did they do that was greater than what Jesus did?

I already answered this.

Even if I had no answer, I wouldn't discount the Lord's pronouncement as a "value judgment," or worse, disbelieve him altogether.

I don’t disbelieve him. I disbelieve your interpretation.

You literally made a value judgement when you claimed the apostles did greater things than Christ.

 

[ding]

First, Christ is directing his word specifically to the apostles.

Christ was talking to the apostles. If he had directed this comment solely to them he wouldn’t have said whoever. He would have said you or you guys.

I never said the Scriptures had no application for other generations or peoples.

I understand that. That’s my point. It applies to everyone. But you took it to mean that the apostles did greater things than Christ. That’s a leap I am not willing to make. They didn’t.

 

[norwegen]

When you say you don't believe they did greater things than Jesus, is that where you got this "value judgment" from?

No.

You have taken a conditional verse which was not directed to anyone specific and made it unconditional and applied it to specific individuals.

First, Christ is directing his word specifically to the apostles.

Second, I have not made anything unconditional. The apostles believed in Christ; they did greater things than he. That's the text; if you wish not to believe that, that's your prerogative.

Third, to the original point, Jesus ministered to Israel, begrudgingly and sparingly to anyone else. Proselyte and pagan conversions came later.

What did they do that was greater? Didn’t you yourself say that:

they did not plant anything. They are not the ones by whom the foolishness of the past is over. They are not the ones who suffered and by whom God's glory manifests on the earth.

Jesus commissioned them. They did not commission him.

So what things did they do that was greater than what Jesus did?

I already answered this.

Even if I had no answer, I wouldn't discount the Lord's pronouncement as a "value judgment," or worse, disbelieve him altogether.

I don’t disbelieve him. I disbelieve your interpretation.

You literally made a value judgement when you claimed the apostles did greater things than Christ.

I cited the Scriptures. That's not a value judgment.

 

[norwegen]

First, Christ is directing his word specifically to the apostles.

Christ was talking to the apostles. If he had directed this comment solely to them he wouldn’t have said whoever. He would have said you or you guys.

I never said the Scriptures had no application for other generations or peoples.

I understand that. That’s my point. It applies to everyone. But you took it to mean it that the apostles did greater things than Christ.

It's what the Bible says. You can believe the Bible or not. Obviously you don't.

And obviously you're just going to run around in circles like you always do.

 

[ding]

No.

You have taken a conditional verse which was not directed to anyone specific and made it unconditional and applied it to specific individuals.

First, Christ is directing his word specifically to the apostles.

Second, I have not made anything unconditional. The apostles believed in Christ; they did greater things than he. That's the text; if you wish not to believe that, that's your prerogative.

Third, to the original point, Jesus ministered to Israel, begrudgingly and sparingly to anyone else. Proselyte and pagan conversions came later.

What did they do that was greater? Didn’t you yourself say that:

they did not plant anything. They are not the ones by whom the foolishness of the past is over. They are not the ones who suffered and by whom God's glory manifests on the earth.

Jesus commissioned them. They did not commission him.

So what things did they do that was greater than what Jesus did?

I already answered this.

Even if I had no answer, I wouldn't discount the Lord's pronouncement as a "value judgment," or worse, disbelieve him altogether.

I don’t disbelieve him. I disbelieve your interpretation.

You literally made a value judgement when you claimed the apostles did greater things than Christ.

I cited the Scriptures. That's not a value judgment.

Did the scripture say the apostles did greater things than Christ?

Because that’s your argument.

 

[ding]

First, Christ is directing his word specifically to the apostles.

Christ was talking to the apostles. If he had directed this comment solely to them he wouldn’t have said whoever. He would have said you or you guys.

I never said the Scriptures had no application for other generations or peoples.

I understand that. That’s my point. It applies to everyone. But you took it to mean it that the apostles did greater things than Christ.

It's what the Bible says. You can believe the Bible or not. Obviously you don't.

And obviously you're just going to run around in circles like you always do.

The scripture did not say the apostles did greater things than Christ.

 

[zaangalewa]

... Ding did a pretty good job answering your question, but I'll add to that. True Christianity is about a relationship, not religion. ...

Religion is the rebound in god. Relationship is the rebound in other people.

-----
Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
-----

-----

 

[LittleNipper]

I'm sorry, but that is blatantly incorrect and demonstrably untrue. It has nothing to do with my "denomination"...The core teachings of Christianity, regardless of denomination, include salvation. You'd have to throw out most of the bible to claim salvation is not necessary.

As for the second thing you said, about the Sermon on the Mount, I completely agree.

But you insist on referencing "salvation" in terms of your own denomination. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Episcopalians, Methodists, etc. do it in all kinds of ways. I think that what you are really saying is that everyone must follow the leaders of your denomination, which apparently is a denomination that believes in biblical inerrancy and infallibility. You have no idea of what occurs in the minds of people of other denominations.

No, I'm not saying people should follow my denomination (I don't even have a denomination) but what I am saying is that all churches or denominations should teach what is biblical and what is in line with the actual truth, the true intent of God. Otherwise, what is the point?

THAT is what is important, and unfortunately most churches today don't do that. And when I say that, I'm not only talking about salvation and the Catholic church, I'm talking about other issues too.

The Creator did not write the bible. No one who actually wrote what became the various books of the bible had any contact with the Creator. No one can know the "true intent" of the Creator.

I just read a piece about frankie graham, who went to Jerusalem and babbled about his "end times" thing, making it sound before the world like he represented the American People, which was absolutely appalling, disgusting, and a disgrace to the American People. Stick to your cult, denomination, and your whatever.

The Scripture was inspired by the moving of the Holy Spirit upon the hearts of men. What became the Bible was GOD's will and not that of men.

Your theology, not mine. The bible is man's musing on what these particular writers thought that the Supreme Being was about.
My beef is that the U.S. government allowed this guy to participate in a formal U.S. government ceremony held overseas, and perhaps transported him, thereby giving him a platform in the Middle East in which he had to have been perceived as representing the U.S. Nation, and in which he spouted beliefs held only by some religious cults. The U.S. Nation, as a whole, has no relationship with this guy's "end times" ideas/ideology or with the ideology of any group. frankie graham and his ilk should not be allowed to represent all of us on the international stage or even be allowed by the federal government to appear to.

Prophesy is not revealed through mere musings.

 

[ding]

First, Christ is directing his word specifically to the apostles.

Christ was talking to the apostles. If he had directed this comment solely to them he wouldn’t have said whoever. He would have said you or you guys.

I never said the Scriptures had no application for other generations or peoples.

I understand that. That’s my point. It applies to everyone. But you took it to mean it that the apostles did greater things than Christ.

It's what the Bible says. You can believe the Bible or not. Obviously you don't.

And obviously you're just going to run around in circles like you always do.

I do believe the Bible. It’s your interpretation that the Bible says the apostles did greater things than Christ that I don’t believe.

 

[ding]

And obviously you're just going to run around in circles like you always do.

This is your pride talking.

 

[sealybobo]

Can a orthodox or catholic be a born again Christian?
I think they can if they have a personal relationship with christ and are born out of water and spirit. I have friends who are in free church and they told me a Catholic can be a christian if he has a personal relationship with christ. But not all catholics are christians. And we talked about the Pope and my friend said he is not sure if he is a christian I mean the Pope but that a Catholic can be christian.

What? Catholics are the original christians. When were born agains made up? I believe that new sect of Christianity was invented after America was born.

And of course a Catholic can be born again. That's the hook. That's how born agains hook other Christians. They start off by saying, "do you know where you are going when you die?" and then they start making you second guess the religion you were born into.

What born agains tell Catholics is they need to be baptized as an adult. Doing it as a kid doesn't count because you didn't choose to do it. Your parents chose you to do it. But a Catholic isn't going to go to his Catholic priest and ask to be baptized again. Instead he will get it done in the born again church.

It's a brilliant scam.

 

[presonorek]

I've always wondered - If you're "born again", does that mean you get to vote twice?

The Bible has a clear answer to your question. Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh but whatever is born of the spirit is spirit. You can vote in person and you can vote in spirit. Those votes that you cast in spirit just don't get counted because of the way the votes are tallied. Spiritual votes are not detected.