Callling All 'Holocaust Deniers'!

[SAYIT]

There *IS* serious and objective research taking place still.

If a serious university historian questions any aspect of the official holocaust story.

He will be immediately vilified as anti-semitic and a nazi.

And will lose his tenure and be fired on the spot.......

where's the cartoon ???

Sunni is the cartoon.

 

[SAYIT]

I totally agree that the camps were there and many inmates died of starvation, disease, and over work.

My main contention is:

1) The numbers of the deaths are extremely inflated.
Newer research is finding the previous numbers to be LOW.

2) There is zero forensic evidence for the gas chambers.
This is either false or simply unreasonable. There is certainly enough testimony - by those who had to remove the bodies, among others. And those who supplied the Zyklon-B, etc.

3) Putting people in prison for having contrary views about an historical event.
The US doesn't do that - nor are 'zionists' responsible for creating such laws elsewhere. And it's not 'having contrary views': it's 'whitewashing genocide'.

4) Not allowing scholars to objectively review the holocaust; as has been done with everything else in history.
Scholars have - numerous well-trained ones. Nobody is 'not allowing': they are simply insisting that such research be held to the already-established standards to ensure objectivity and accuracy.

Who, exactly, are you claiming is doing this 'not allowing'? And why?

he does NOT have a clue

But he does have an agenda.

 

[SAYIT]

Sunni -

Can you explain why you do not consider the German camp records to be convincing - when they so obviously could not be faked?

Are you aware that even Holocaudt Denier David Irving admitted that "at least" 4 million Jews were murdered?

no he can't and never will

It always amazes me when these issues come down to blind faith - contradicted by entire truck loads of facts.

Anyone today can go and stand in the original gas chambers and see for themselves. Anyone can go and look at the original German camp files.

Its funny how no Denier wants to.

Their purpose is not to spread truth. I'll leave to the reader to decide what the deniers are spreading.

 

[Sunni Man]

Someone ought to ask Sunni Man why he finds it acceptable to post these cartoons while not finding it acceptable for Europeans to post cartoons of Mohammad in their newspapers. The double standards he holds to are the height of hypocrisy. - Jeremiah

Bravo, Jeremiah - excellent point!

Simple

The Muhammad cartoons slanders a revered religious figure.

Whereas, holocaust cartoons lambast an alleged historial event and zionist ideology.

Big difference........

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Manure to put it politely. - Jeremiah

 

[Saigon]

Sunni -

The deaths of five million non-Jewish prisoners has nothing whatsoever to do with Zionim, Judaism or Jews.

 

[Sunni Man]

Sunni -

The deaths of five million non-Jewish prisoners has nothing whatsoever to do with Zionim, Judaism or Jews.

I never claimed it did.......

 

[namvet]

Who, exactly, are you claiming is doing this 'not allowing'? And why?

he does NOT have a clue

But he does have an agenda.

based on hate

 

[Swagger]

Just a quick question. How would the non-deniers react if someone or some people who'd been smeared by the press as Holocaust Deniers uncovered and published/circulated evidence in the course of their research that proved more than the official estimate (6m) had perished in the death camps following research that would otherwise have been attributed to an alleged anti-Semitic agenda?

Would their findings be endorsed/cheered by their detractors or dismissed?

If their research was legitimate and based on solid evidence, it would be accepted. Peer review does not require research to be popular - only based on sound academic principles.

There are instances on this happening every year on various topics, including a recent PhD here in Finland which probed the handing over of 8 Jews to the Nazis, a story that had previously been buried. You can imagine how popular the author was after that.

That said, it is almost impossible for Holocaust "revisionism" to meet academic standards.

Why, exactly? Historians - expert and amateur - 'revise' (a.k.a 'dispute') what they consider unreliable or biased accounts of events in history all the time. Almost every day, in fact. They do so by researching all manner of sources and comparing them against new evidence (archaelogical or academic). From what I can gather, these "revisionists" do exactly the same. They even cite the sources and evidence they've drawn into doubt. How does that not meet "academic standards"?

Whenever someone (Oxford academic or amateur historian) publically declares that their research runs into conflict with elements of the official narrative, or even voices an element of doubt, they're vilified and often risk losing their tenure. For instance. What do you honestly believe would be the reaction of the international media if leading modern historians applied to forensically examine - including extensive geophysical surveys - one or more of the death camps in Europe to satisfy any doubts they may have concerning events that are widely believed to have occured during WWII?

 

[SAYIT]

Varelse -

You are presumably aware of the fact the German camp records are open and available and have been for many years now - and that they confirm the systematic execution of named and numbered Jews entering the camps?

I can't imagine what shred of hope remains for "Revisionism" after that - surely it is game over?

For 21st (and 20th) Century deniers the game is never over. It's like playin' Whack-a-Mole.

 

[namvet]

Someone ought to ask Sunni Man why he finds it acceptable to post these cartoons while not finding it acceptable for Europeans to post cartoons of Mohammad in their newspapers. The double standards he holds to are the height of hypocrisy. - Jeremiah

Bravo, Jeremiah - excellent point!

Simple

The Muhammad cartoons slanders a revered religious figure.

Whereas, holocaust cartoons lambast an alleged historial event and zionist ideology.

Big difference........

which PROVES your a racist

 

[Sunni Man]

Not one single body from the prison camps has ever been the subject of a forensic autopsy to determine if a gas or chemical agent was the cause of death.

We now have the technology to determine if the holocaust gas chamber story is fact or fiction........

 

[Saigon]

Why, exactly? Historians - expert and amateur - 'revise' (a.k.a 'dispute') what they consider unreliable or biased accounts of events in history all the time. Almost every day, in fact. They do so by researching all manner of sources and comparing them against new evidence (archaelogical or academic). From what I can gather, these "revisionists" do exactly the same. They even cite the sources and evidence they've drawn into doubt. How does that not meet "academic standards"?

It's difficult for Holocaust "Revisionists" to produce academic work because 99% of what Revisionists publish has no basis in anything except politics.

I know it's an attractive idea to think that new theories are being squashed and people being silenced, but the reality of academia is simply not like that. Voices are raised, opinions screamed from the rooftops, and arguments conducted all over the place. People can, and do, say whatever they like, basically.

But the basis for debate within any decent university faculty is quality. It's about being able to justify a position. If you can do that, you will always find a university that will accept it.

What one has to understand is that most "revisionists" are doing research entirely for poltical reasons. That doesn't make genuine historical research very easy to do!

 

[namvet]

Not one single body from the prison camps has ever been the subject of a forensic autopsy to determine if a gas or chemical agent was the cause of death.

We now have the technology to determine if the holocaust gas chamber story is fact or fiction........

lets see the technology storm trooper. im in denial

 

[namvet]

Not one single body from the prison camps has ever been the subject of a forensic autopsy to determine if a gas or chemical agent was the cause of death.

We now have the technology to determine if the holocaust gas chamber story is fact or fiction........

no shit sherlock

 

[Foxfyre]

So Sunni, a Muslim, uses a text put out by one of the most anti-semitic groups on the planet - "Bible Believer" based in Australia - as his source. Bible Believers were described as "one the most visible of the plethora of eccentric pseudo-Christian groups in Australia" and "extremist" by the Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council (AIJAC) in their 2008 report on antisemitism in Australia.

While I do not usually use either Wikipedia or Skeptic Magazine as definitive sources, in this case both have done a credible job in pulling a lot of different information together. Some years ago, I coached a debate team on the very subject of Holocaust Denial, and the extensive research that we did in preparation for that debate is fairly well summarized in the two sources linked. Frankly I have neither the time or inclination to repeat all the previous research done to come up with original sources, but some good ones are referred to in the linked references.

The Nazis used figures of between 9 and 11 million for the Jewish population of Europe, as evidenced in the notes of the Wannsee Conference. In fact, the Nazis methodically recorded the ongoing reduction of the Jewish population, as in the Korherr Report, which gave the status of the Final Solution through December, 1942.

The Höfle Telegram was sent by SS-Sturmbannführer Hermann Höfle on January 11, 1943 to SS-Obersturmbannführer Adolf Eichmann in Berlin and detailed the number of deaths of Jews in the concentration camps.[54] In the year 1942 alone, the telegram lists 1,274,166 Jews were exterminated[54] in the four camps of Aktion Reinhard. The Korherr Report compiled by an SS statistician, gave a conservative total of 2,454,000 Jews deported to extermination camps or killed by the Einsatzgruppen. The complete status reports of the Einsatzgruppen death squads were found in the archives of the Gestapo when it was searched by the U.S. Army, and the accuracy attested to by the former Einsatzgruppen members who testified during war crime trials and at other times. These reports alone list an additional 1,500,000 or so murders during mass shootings, the vast majority of these victims were Jews. Further, surviving Nazi documentation spells out their plans to murder the Jews of Europe (see the Wannsee Conference), recorded the trains arriving at various death camps, and included photographs and films of many atrocities.
Criticism of Holocaust denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How do we know the Nazis used gas chambers to kill Jews en masse? The same way we prove the Holocaust in general--a convergence of evidence from various sources:

1. Written documents--Orders for Zyklon-B gas, blueprints and orders for building materials for the crematoria, etc.

2. Eyewitness testimony--Sonderkommando diaries, confessions of guards and commandants, etc.

3. Photographs--Not only of the camps, but especially interesting are the secret photos taken of the burning of bodies that were smuggled out of Auschwitz.

4. The camps themselves--forensic tests have now been conducted demonstrating the homicidal use of both the gas chambers and the crematoria for the express purpose of exterminating large numbers of prisoners (Pressac, 1989; Pressac and Van Pelt, 1994).

5. Negative evidence--we have documentation of the numbers of prisoners shipped to the various camps, the numbers that were transferred, and the number liberated. The difference between the latter with the former two figures gives an approximation of the numbers who died or were killed (see Hilberg, 1961).
Proving the Gas Chambers & Crematoria

 

[Saigon]

This, folks, is a gas chamber at Auschwitz 1. I took this pic, btw.

The ovens used to cremate bodies are right next to it - there were about 8 of those if I remember rightly. Bodies were wheeled out in trollies and loaded right into the ovens.

 

[Swagger]

Why, exactly? Historians - expert and amateur - 'revise' (a.k.a 'dispute') what they consider unreliable or biased accounts of events in history all the time. Almost every day, in fact. They do so by researching all manner of sources and comparing them against new evidence (archaelogical or academic). From what I can gather, these "revisionists" do exactly the same. They even cite the sources and evidence they've drawn into doubt. How does that not meet "academic standards"?

It's difficult for Holocaust "Revisionists" to produce academic work because 99% of what Revisionists publish has no basis in anything except politics.

I know it's an attractive idea to think that new theories are being squashed and people being silenced, but the reality of academia is simply not like that. Voices are raised, opinions screamed from the rooftops, and arguments conducted all over the place. People can, and do, say whatever they like, basically.

But the basis for debate within any decent university faculty is quality. It's about being able to justify a position. If you can do that, you will always find a university that will accept it.

What one has to understand is that most "revisionists" are doing research entirely for poltical reasons. That doesn't make genuine historical research very easy to do!

How?

Either way, it could be argued that historians draw described events in history into doubt for a plethora of reasons/motives. To satisfy their own curiosity. To sell books. To elevate their standing among their peers. To cause controversy. Or simply to create dialogue.

The head count of historians or anyone in the public eye who have voiced doubts over what is widely believed to have happened to European Jewry in Europe during WWII stands as testament to their being a potentially ruinous exception to the rule concerning historical research and any disputes drawn from it.

There are conflicting opinions on what befell the 9th Legion. Some historians believe it was destroyed north of Hadrian's Wall. Some believe that it was simply re-assigned to another province. But all research and/or dispute is welcome without running the risk of having your hard-earned reputation dragged through the dirt. Historians and archaelogists still haven't agreed on how the Pyramids were built. Yet they can safely publish and discuss their contentions and agreements without being subject to the wrath of the media.

Raise/publish anything that draws the Holocaust narrative into doubt and you're guaranteed to find yourself in the press' crosshairs. You could even face a prison sentence depending on where you disseminate your contentious findings. Why is that. What's so special - or potentially embarrassing - about raising what some clearly regard as undesirable doubts concerning the Holocaust?

 

[namvet]

So Sunni, a Muslim, uses a text put out by one of the most anti-semitic groups on the planet - "Bible Believer" based in Australia - as his source. Bible Believers were described as "one the most visible of the plethora of eccentric pseudo-Christian groups in Australia" and "extremist" by the Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council (AIJAC) in their 2008 report on antisemitism in Australia.

While I do not usually use either Wikipedia or Skeptic Magazine as definitive sources, in this case both have done a credible job in pulling a lot of different information together. Some years ago, I coached a debate team on the very subject of Holocaust Denial, and the extensive research that we did in preparation for that debate is fairly well summarized in the two sources linked. Frankly I have neither the time or inclination to repeat all the previous research done to come up with original sources, but some good ones are referred to in the linked references.

The Nazis used figures of between 9 and 11 million for the Jewish population of Europe, as evidenced in the notes of the Wannsee Conference. In fact, the Nazis methodically recorded the ongoing reduction of the Jewish population, as in the Korherr Report, which gave the status of the Final Solution through December, 1942.

The Höfle Telegram was sent by SS-Sturmbannführer Hermann Höfle on January 11, 1943 to SS-Obersturmbannführer Adolf Eichmann in Berlin and detailed the number of deaths of Jews in the concentration camps.[54] In the year 1942 alone, the telegram lists 1,274,166 Jews were exterminated[54] in the four camps of Aktion Reinhard. The Korherr Report compiled by an SS statistician, gave a conservative total of 2,454,000 Jews deported to extermination camps or killed by the Einsatzgruppen. The complete status reports of the Einsatzgruppen death squads were found in the archives of the Gestapo when it was searched by the U.S. Army, and the accuracy attested to by the former Einsatzgruppen members who testified during war crime trials and at other times. These reports alone list an additional 1,500,000 or so murders during mass shootings, the vast majority of these victims were Jews. Further, surviving Nazi documentation spells out their plans to murder the Jews of Europe (see the Wannsee Conference), recorded the trains arriving at various death camps, and included photographs and films of many atrocities.
Criticism of Holocaust denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How do we know the Nazis used gas chambers to kill Jews en masse? The same way we prove the Holocaust in general--a convergence of evidence from various sources:

1. Written documents--Orders for Zyklon-B gas, blueprints and orders for building materials for the crematoria, etc.

2. Eyewitness testimony--Sonderkommando diaries, confessions of guards and commandants, etc.

3. Photographs--Not only of the camps, but especially interesting are the secret photos taken of the burning of bodies that were smuggled out of Auschwitz.

4. The camps themselves--forensic tests have now been conducted demonstrating the homicidal use of both the gas chambers and the crematoria for the express purpose of exterminating large numbers of prisoners (Pressac, 1989; Pressac and Van Pelt, 1994).

5. Negative evidence--we have documentation of the numbers of prisoners shipped to the various camps, the numbers that were transferred, and the number liberated. The difference between the latter with the former two figures gives an approximation of the numbers who died or were killed (see Hilberg, 1961).
Proving the Gas Chambers & Crematoria

he's NOT listening. he's making bread

 

[Sunni Man]

Not one single body from the prison camps has ever been the subject of a forensic autopsy to determine if a gas or chemical agent was the cause of death.

We now have the technology to determine if the holocaust gas chamber story is fact or fiction........

no shit sherlock

^^^ Ovens for baking bread to feed the soldiers and camp inmates........