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With respect to what created the universe, the question what came before that doesn't have a satisfactory answer as it leads to an infinite regression of what came before that.

So the only solution to the first cause conundrum of what came before that is "no thing" because only a "no thing" can be eternal and unchanging. The reason only a "no thing" can be the solution is because "things" change. Matter and energy equilibrate. There's no stopping it. So matter and energy itself can not be an eternal source of creating matter and energy. It just isn't possible once you wrap your mind around what eternity or infinity actually means. Not to mention that the mere presence of energy and matter literally creates space and time. It's own space own time. Separate from all other space times. There's no getting around this either.

So it is not possible for some "thing" to be an eternal source of creating universes.
 

LuckyDuck

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While estimates of the age of our universe have been, for a few years now, about 13.8 billion years. There are scientists that have stated that it is possible that the universe has been here ad-infinitum and that our estimations are only based upon what we have been able to determine with our present technology. Galaxies and stars are born and die and thus, many galaxies and stars have no doubt come and gone long before what we are able to see now.
 
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...we don't have any idea of what or how it was created
Oh... you mean what created the universe.

Just you agreeing the universe was created is a small victory for me.

We know a great deal about how the universe was created.
 
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While estimates of the age of our universe have been, for a few years now, about 13.8 billion years. There are scientists that have stated that it is possible that the universe has been here ad-infinitum and that our estimations are only based upon what we have been able to determine with our present technology. Galaxies and stars are born and die and thus, many galaxies and stars have no doubt come and gone long before what we are able to see now.
Which violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

I'll make a thread on that later today.
 

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With respect to what created the universe, the question what came before that doesn't have a satisfactory answer as it leads to an infinite regression of what came before that.

So the only solution to the first cause conundrum of what came before that is "no thing" because only a "no thing" can be eternal and unchanging. The reason only a "no thing" can be the solution is because "things" change. Matter and energy equilibrate. There's no stopping it. So matter and energy itself can not be an eternal source of creating matter and energy. It just isn't possible once you wrap your mind around what eternity or infinity actually means. Not to mention that the mere presence of energy and matter literally creates space and time. It's own space own time. Separate from all other space times. There's no getting around this either.

So it is not possible for some "thing" to be an eternal source of creating universes.
Matter and energy, ie, Fermions and Bosons, cannot be the CAUSE of time and space (the Firmament) since they only EXIST in time and space. Whatever caused the creation of the universe must therefore lie outside all that, and so, by implication, the real universe must be far more and many other things than the universe we can see.
 
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...we don't have any idea of what or how it was created
It couldn't have been created. That's the point of being the solution to the first cause conundrum.
you and no one have any idea about what you are babbling about
I just explained it, dummy. Use your big boy words and explain how it is wrong.
no you don't ......it's just babble
Which is so far above your intellect to discuss that you can't discuss it.

Let's hear some more of your witty responses to disguise your inability to discuss the subject.
 

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...we don't have any idea of what or how it was created
It couldn't have been created. That's the point of being the solution to the first cause conundrum.
you and no one have any idea about what you are babbling about
I just explained it, dummy. Use your big boy words and explain how it is wrong.
no you don't ......it's just babble
Which is so far above your intellect to discuss that you can't discuss it.

Let's hear some more of your witty responses to disguise your inability to discuss the subject.
the subject is undiscussable ----we have NO idea about it
 
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...we don't have any idea of what or how it was created
It couldn't have been created. That's the point of being the solution to the first cause conundrum.
you and no one have any idea about what you are babbling about
I just explained it, dummy. Use your big boy words and explain how it is wrong.
no you don't ......it's just babble
Which is so far above your intellect to discuss that you can't discuss it.

Let's hear some more of your witty responses to disguise your inability to discuss the subject.
the subject is undiscussable ----we have NO idea about it
Just because YOU are ignorant about this subject doesn't mean everyone is ignorant on this subject.

Is it knowable that the presence of matter and energy create space and time? Or are YOU ignorant about that too?
 

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...we don't have any idea of what or how it was created
It couldn't have been created. That's the point of being the solution to the first cause conundrum.
you and no one have any idea about what you are babbling about
I just explained it, dummy. Use your big boy words and explain how it is wrong.
no you don't ......it's just babble
Which is so far above your intellect to discuss that you can't discuss it.

Let's hear some more of your witty responses to disguise your inability to discuss the subject.
the subject is undiscussable ----we have NO idea about it
Just because YOU are ignorant about this subject doesn't mean everyone is ignorant on this subject.

Is it knowable that the presence of matter and energy create space and time? Or are YOU ignorant about that too?
the GREAT Ding knows about god and creation!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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...we don't have any idea of what or how it was created
It couldn't have been created. That's the point of being the solution to the first cause conundrum.
you and no one have any idea about what you are babbling about
I just explained it, dummy. Use your big boy words and explain how it is wrong.
no you don't ......it's just babble
Which is so far above your intellect to discuss that you can't discuss it.

Let's hear some more of your witty responses to disguise your inability to discuss the subject.
the subject is undiscussable ----we have NO idea about it
Just because YOU are ignorant about this subject doesn't mean everyone is ignorant on this subject.

Is it knowable that the presence of matter and energy create space and time? Or are YOU ignorant about that too?
the GREAT Ding knows about god and creation!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I haven't gotten within a hundred miles of discussing God, dummy.

Is it knowable that matter and energy cannot exist without changing? Or are you ignorant about this too?
 

C_Clayton_Jones

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With respect to what created the universe, the question what came before that doesn't have a satisfactory answer as it leads to an infinite regression of what came before that.

So the only solution to the first cause conundrum of what came before that is "no thing" because only a "no thing" can be eternal and unchanging. The reason only a "no thing" can be the solution is because "things" change. Matter and energy equilibrate. There's no stopping it. So matter and energy itself can not be an eternal source of creating matter and energy. It just isn't possible once you wrap your mind around what eternity or infinity actually means. Not to mention that the mere presence of energy and matter literally creates space and time. It's own space own time. Separate from all other space times. There's no getting around this either.

So it is not possible for some "thing" to be an eternal source of creating universes.
It’s called an appeal to ignorance fallacy.
 

Asclepias

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With respect to what created the universe, the question what came before that doesn't have a satisfactory answer as it leads to an infinite regression of what came before that.

So the only solution to the first cause conundrum of what came before that is "no thing" because only a "no thing" can be eternal and unchanging. The reason only a "no thing" can be the solution is because "things" change. Matter and energy equilibrate. There's no stopping it. So matter and energy itself can not be an eternal source of creating matter and energy. It just isn't possible once you wrap your mind around what eternity or infinity actually means. Not to mention that the mere presence of energy and matter literally creates space and time. It's own space own time. Separate from all other space times. There's no getting around this either.

So it is not possible for some "thing" to be an eternal source of creating universes.
Humans are not intelligent enough to figure this out. The best they will ever do is come up with a theory.
 

ReinyDays

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Matter and energy, ie, Fermions and Bosons, cannot be the CAUSE of time and space (the Firmament) since they only EXIST in time and space. Whatever caused the creation of the universe must therefore lie outside all that, and so, by implication, the real universe must be far more and many other things than the universe we can see.
To extend these ideas ... we can only see so far back in time (or see so far out) in the universe ... the early universe was opaque to light, so none will ever arrive at Earth ... by exploring the universe with electromagnetic radiation, there's a hard boundary out there that we can never see past ... and this IS NOT the beginning of the universe, far from it ... the universe has already got some time punched on the timeclock where we must stop seeing ...

Thus all the excitement over the success of the LIGO Experiment ... the early universe was opaque to light waves, gravity waves ought not to have been effected ... at scale, the LIGO-type instrument should theoretically breach this light-wall out there and we can actually start exploring the early universe ... and begin to answer the questions presented in the OP ...

I'm betting on dE/dt = m dc/dt ... the speed of light is slowing down ... and the conservation laws are all wrong ... with as little as I understand about this, I'm entitled to have very strong opinions (c.f. post #16 this thread) ...
 
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With respect to what created the universe, the question what came before that doesn't have a satisfactory answer as it leads to an infinite regression of what came before that.

So the only solution to the first cause conundrum of what came before that is "no thing" because only a "no thing" can be eternal and unchanging. The reason only a "no thing" can be the solution is because "things" change. Matter and energy equilibrate. There's no stopping it. So matter and energy itself can not be an eternal source of creating matter and energy. It just isn't possible once you wrap your mind around what eternity or infinity actually means. Not to mention that the mere presence of energy and matter literally creates space and time. It's own space own time. Separate from all other space times. There's no getting around this either.

So it is not possible for some "thing" to be an eternal source of creating universes.
It’s called an appeal to ignorance fallacy.
No. It's called the nature of matter and energy, dummy.
 

toobfreak

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Matter and energy, ie, Fermions and Bosons, cannot be the CAUSE of time and space (the Firmament) since they only EXIST in time and space. Whatever caused the creation of the universe must therefore lie outside all that, and so, by implication, the real universe must be far more and many other things than the universe we can see.
To extend these ideas ... we can only see so far back in time (or see so far out) in the universe ... the early universe was opaque to light, so none will ever arrive at Earth ... by exploring the universe with electromagnetic radiation, there's a hard boundary out there that we can never see past ... and this IS NOT the beginning of the universe, far from it ... the universe has already got some time punched on the timeclock where we must stop seeing ...

Thus all the excitement over the success of the LIGO Experiment ... the early universe was opaque to light waves, gravity waves ought not to have been effected ... at scale, the LIGO-type instrument should theoretically breach this light-wall out there and we can actually start exploring the early universe ... and begin to answer the questions presented in the OP ...

I'm betting on dE/dt = m dc/dt ... the speed of light is slowing down ... and the conservation laws are all wrong ... with as little as I understand about this, I'm entitled to have very strong opinions (c.f. post #16 this thread) ...
Quite right, you must have some background in cosmology. Obviously, there must have been events/regions before and which led up to the point where the universe cooled and became transparent to light / electromagnetic radiation. No one can say how far back this other region goes or what is there.

As to LIGO, perhaps, the only caveat that makes me uneasy is that gravity is not a force carrier as often erroneously considered (the graviton), and there is a fundamental but huge gap in our understanding here as this is exactly where the worlds of the macro Einsteinium universe and the micro quantum universes run smack into a brick wall refusing to unify, so it leaves me a bit restless to end up having to rely upon gravity as my ultimate searchlight of truth when I don't even really understand what it is I'm searching with.

I'll reserve comment on your last part as they are neither provable or disprovable at this point; perhaps, like Newtonian dynamics, they do a very good job describing the universe, UP TO A POINT.
 
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