Call Apartheid in Israel by Its Name

[Billo_Really]

Of course we are talking about that. You want to have a special set of rules for Israel and Jews. I'm only pointing out the hypocrisy of that attitude.

The thread title does not say "Apartheid in Palestine", it says "Apartheid in Israel".

Stop jerking us around!

 

[Shusha]

Of course we are talking about that. You want to have a special set of rules for Israel and Jews. I'm only pointing out the hypocrisy of that attitude.

The thread title does not say "Apartheid in Palestine", it says "Apartheid in Israel".

Stop jerking us around!

Oh please. We both know that threads are flexible enough to compare and contrast both sides of the equation. So this is just a cop-out.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It comes with the territory, literally.

All peoples have the right to self determination.

Define the meaning of peoples.

You have to decide what you are arguing. Are you arguing that people have an inherent right to self-determination? Or are you arguing that self-determination is an outcome of treaties and agreements?

Are you arguing that people...​

Not people, peoples. Let's not change the debate.

OK. The French are a people. The British are a people. The Canadians are a people. The Palestinians are a people. And on. They are all the people of their respective place. Collectively, all of these different sets of people are peoples. It is the people of the place who have rights. The French cannot claim sovereignty in Britain because it is not their place.

 

[Boston1]

The real name of apartheid in Israel is Bull Shit.

The whole notion is nothing more than the same old tired Arab Muslim accusation they themselves are guilty of while the Israeli's do everything they can to integrate their Arab Muslim population into the political and social fabric of Israel.

 

[Shusha]

OK. The French are a people. The British are a people. The Canadians are a people. The Palestinians are a people. And on. They are all the people of their respective place. Collectively, all of these different sets of people are peoples. It is the people of the place who have rights. The French cannot claim sovereignty in Britain because it is not their place.

Are the Jewish people a people? Yes or no?

Do all people(s) (including the Jewish people) have an inherent right to self-determination? Yes or no?

Do they only have an inherent right to self-determination in certain places? If yes, what places?

If they are removed from their place, do they or do they not maintain their rights as people of that place?

 

[USAF 2023]

Arab apartheid / Muslim apartheid vs Israel democracy :: Reader comments at Daniel Pipes

Arab apartheid / Muslim apartheid are the largest 'apartheid systems', that exist today.

Virtually all non-Arabs and/or non-Muslims are second class citizens. Among minorities that feel the wrath of the bigoted Arab-Muslim world are:

* Berbers (native N. Africans, before Arab invasion: Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco).

* Copts (indigenous Egyptians suffer from both: Arab racism and Islamic bigotry).

* Kurds (Examples include: [Saddam's] Iraq and Syria.

* Blacks, in Arab lands or in Arab ruled Africa like the genocide in the Sudan and slavery in both Sudan and in Mauritania.

* Asians, particularly in the Gulf Arab states. [Sex slaves or "plain" slaves).

* Maronites-Christians [Native Lebanese] suffer from both Arab ethnic racism and religious bigotry, like the massacres in the 1970s by local Muslims and by Palestinian/Syrian forces.

* Assyrians, are/have been persecuted both racially and religiously. Still very much marginalized in Iraq, for example.

* Iran is not an Arab country but racism is huge against Kurds, Jews, Turkmens, etc. So is anti-non-Muslim bigotry against Christians, Bahai, Zoroastrians and other in the Islamic republic.

* Turkey is also a Muslim non-Arab country and Kurds, Greeks, Armenians and other ethnicities have been through much suffering, genocide. Still there's great wide racism against non-Turkish ethnic groups including racism against Alevis and against Kurds. Turkey's policy in Cyprus has also been recognized as a real Apartheid by many. All non-Muslims are automatically branded as "foreigners" at the "moderate" Islamic supremacy of Turkey.

* Chinese, Indians, Christians and other non-Malay, in Malaysia; Chinese, Christians in Indonesia, have long been subject to persecution, race-riots, discrimination, racism and bloodshed.

* Non-Muslims or the 'wrong kind of Muslims,' in Pakistan; Iraq; Afghanistan, are oppressed and targeted in deadly attacks.

* All non-Msulims in 'Islamic Apartheid state' of S. Arabia.

Nice deflection.

When others speak the truth you call it selection . You can't handle the truth. Let's talk about Saudi Arabia where Muslims are not allowed to enter their " Holy Cities" or Christians that are being killed by those who practiceyour " religion" or the NJA Policy in the " Palestinian srare" Best thing Israel can do is continue what they are doing.

 

[USAF 2023]

montelatici, et al,

This is nonsense.

Israeli Jews are starting to see the light. It's as if I wrote the article. LOL

Apartheid South Africa Israel

The non-white citizens The non-Jew citizens
The white citizens The the Jewish citizens
The non-whites of the Bantustans The non-Jews of the Occupied Territories

"Citizenship here is reminiscent of South Africa's in the past: Jews are 'white' citizens, Arabs in Israel have 'colored' (in other words, partial) citizenship; and Palestinians in the territories have 'black' citizenship, without political rights.

In international law, a situation whereby a country appropriates and settles territories outside its sovereign borders is called colonialism. Southern Lebanon was an example of military occupation; the West Bank is an example of colonialism, one that seeks to entrench itself over time while preserving the privileges of the ruling population, and incidentally creating an apartheid regime.
read more: Call apartheid in Israel by its name - Opinion


read more: Call apartheid in Israel by its name - Opinion

(COMMENT)

There is no geo-political relationship between the State of Israel and the State of Palestine. They are two separate countries separated by internationally recognized demarcation. The demarcation is recognized and protected the same as a border.

• Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations: Every State likewise has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines, established by or pursuant to an international agreement to which it is a party or which it is otherwise bound to respect. Nothing in the foregoing shall be construed as prejudicing the positions of the parties concerned with regard to the status and effects of such lines under their special regimes or as affecting their temporary character.
​

POINTS RELATIVE TO APARTHIED:

• There are both Jewish Constituents and non-Jewish Constituents on both sides of the International Boundaries separating Israel from Jordan and Egypt. AND there are both Jewish Constituents and non-Jewish Constituents on both sides of the other demarcation lines. Admittedly, the distribution of Jewish Constituents in the adjacent Arab nations is relatively small. In the Gaza Strip the Arab Palestinian is ≈ 97% to 98% of the population; most of whom are Sunni Muslim (nearly 99%). Less than 1% of the Gaza Population is Christian. In the West Bank population is a bit more diverse, with the Arab Palestinian comprising ≈ 80% to 85%, and all others comprising 15% to 20%. However, the ethnic demographics of Israel is a bit more complicated:

View attachment 64248​

Interesting Side Note is that in the 2009 survey, ≈ 20% of the Israeli Population did not believe in the existence of a Supreme Being. In the 2011 Census, Israel consisted of 75.4% Jewish, -- 17.3% Muslim, 2% Christians, and 1.6% Druze. The remaining 3.7% were undefined as others.

By comparing the objective ethnic and cultural dimensions of both the Palestinian Territories to that of Israel, you will find that there is Israel the much more diverse culture.

Most Respectfully,
R

There is only one government in all of Palestine and that is Israel.

Another lie by the Palestinian. There is Hamas and Fatah

 

[Billo_Really]

Oh please. We both know that threads are flexible enough to compare and contrast both sides of the equation. So this is just a cop-out.

No it's not a cop out.

There is nothing in print, no public statements, no comparable proclamations by Palestinian authorities, demanding a state (that they don't have), be recognized as the "Palestinian State", exclusively giving citizenship rights to every Arab in the world, no matter where they are currently living.

You are trying to inject conjecture, a hypothetical, a myth into this discussion, that is not based in reality. There is no Palestinian comparison to the Zionist claim that Israel be recognized as the "Jewish State".

And pushing this into the conversation, is an attempt to convolute the discussion to such a point, that an intelligent debate becomes impossible.

 

[Billo_Really]

Are the Jewish people a people? Yes or no?

Do all people(s) (including the Jewish people) have an inherent right to self-determination? Yes or no?

Do they only have an inherent right to self-determination in certain places? If yes, what places?

If they are removed from their place, do they or do they not maintain their rights as people of that place?

Palestinian's, are the Jews not removed.

But that's a discussion on another thread.

 

[USAF 2023]

montelatici, et al,

This is nonsense.

Israeli Jews are starting to see the light. It's as if I wrote the article. LOL

Apartheid South Africa Israel

The non-white citizens The non-Jew citizens
The white citizens The the Jewish citizens
The non-whites of the Bantustans The non-Jews of the Occupied Territories

"Citizenship here is reminiscent of South Africa's in the past: Jews are 'white' citizens, Arabs in Israel have 'colored' (in other words, partial) citizenship; and Palestinians in the territories have 'black' citizenship, without political rights.

In international law, a situation whereby a country appropriates and settles territories outside its sovereign borders is called colonialism. Southern Lebanon was an example of military occupation; the West Bank is an example of colonialism, one that seeks to entrench itself over time while preserving the privileges of the ruling population, and incidentally creating an apartheid regime.
read more: Call apartheid in Israel by its name - Opinion


read more: Call apartheid in Israel by its name - Opinion

(COMMENT)

There is no geo-political relationship between the State of Israel and the State of Palestine. They are two separate countries separated by internationally recognized demarcation. The demarcation is recognized and protected the same as a border.

• Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations: Every State likewise has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines, established by or pursuant to an international agreement to which it is a party or which it is otherwise bound to respect. Nothing in the foregoing shall be construed as prejudicing the positions of the parties concerned with regard to the status and effects of such lines under their special regimes or as affecting their temporary character.
​

POINTS RELATIVE TO APARTHIED:

• There are both Jewish Constituents and non-Jewish Constituents on both sides of the International Boundaries separating Israel from Jordan and Egypt. AND there are both Jewish Constituents and non-Jewish Constituents on both sides of the other demarcation lines. Admittedly, the distribution of Jewish Constituents in the adjacent Arab nations is relatively small. In the Gaza Strip the Arab Palestinian is ≈ 97% to 98% of the population; most of whom are Sunni Muslim (nearly 99%). Less than 1% of the Gaza Population is Christian. In the West Bank population is a bit more diverse, with the Arab Palestinian comprising ≈ 80% to 85%, and all others comprising 15% to 20%. However, the ethnic demographics of Israel is a bit more complicated:

View attachment 64248​

Interesting Side Note is that in the 2009 survey, ≈ 20% of the Israeli Population did not believe in the existence of a Supreme Being. In the 2011 Census, Israel consisted of 75.4% Jewish, -- 17.3% Muslim, 2% Christians, and 1.6% Druze. The remaining 3.7% were undefined as others.

By comparing the objective ethnic and cultural dimensions of both the Palestinian Territories to that of Israel, you will find that there is Israel the much more diverse culture.

Most Respectfully,
R

There is only one government in all of Palestine and that is Israel.

Another lie by the Palestinian. There is Hamas and Fatah

Arab apartheid / Muslim apartheid vs Israel democracy :: Reader comments at Daniel Pipes

Arab apartheid / Muslim apartheid are the largest 'apartheid systems', that exist today.

Virtually all non-Arabs and/or non-Muslims are second class citizens. Among minorities that feel the wrath of the bigoted Arab-Muslim world are:

* Berbers (native N. Africans, before Arab invasion: Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco).

* Copts (indigenous Egyptians suffer from both: Arab racism and Islamic bigotry).

* Kurds (Examples include: [Saddam's] Iraq and Syria.

* Blacks, in Arab lands or in Arab ruled Africa like the genocide in the Sudan and slavery in both Sudan and in Mauritania.

* Asians, particularly in the Gulf Arab states. [Sex slaves or "plain" slaves).

* Maronites-Christians [Native Lebanese] suffer from both Arab ethnic racism and religious bigotry, like the massacres in the 1970s by local Muslims and by Palestinian/Syrian forces.

* Assyrians, are/have been persecuted both racially and religiously. Still very much marginalized in Iraq, for example.

* Iran is not an Arab country but racism is huge against Kurds, Jews, Turkmens, etc. So is anti-non-Muslim bigotry against Christians, Bahai, Zoroastrians and other in the Islamic republic.

* Turkey is also a Muslim non-Arab country and Kurds, Greeks, Armenians and other ethnicities have been through much suffering, genocide. Still there's great wide racism against non-Turkish ethnic groups including racism against Alevis and against Kurds. Turkey's policy in Cyprus has also been recognized as a real Apartheid by many. All non-Muslims are automatically branded as "foreigners" at the "moderate" Islamic supremacy of Turkey.

* Chinese, Indians, Christians and other non-Malay, in Malaysia; Chinese, Christians in Indonesia, have long been subject to persecution, race-riots, discrimination, racism and bloodshed.

* Non-Muslims or the 'wrong kind of Muslims,' in Pakistan; Iraq; Afghanistan, are oppressed and targeted in deadly attacks.

* All non-Msulims in 'Islamic Apartheid state' of S. Arabia.

Nice deflection.

When others speak the truth you call it deflection. You can't handle the truth. Let's talk about Saudi Arabia where Muslims are not allowed to enter their " Holy Cities" or Christians that are being killed by those who practiceyour " religion" or the NJA Policy in the " Palestinian srare" Best thing Israel can do is continue what they are doing.

 

[Phoenall]

Do you have a document for the right to self determination of the Jews?

Wait, what?! Aren't you the one who keeps arguing for the inalienable rights to self-determination? Does this not apply to Jews?

There are multiple UN resolutions and other documents expressing the inalienable right of the Palestinian's to self determination.

I haven't seen any for the Jews. That is why I asked.

Because they apply to all nations and not just Palestine. So when will the Palestinians take the next baby step to full self determination and become a nation standing on its own two feet ?

They are. Its called BDS.

So when will the Palestinians take the next and last baby step towards full self determination, and stop expecting others to do it for them. The last step is to stand up in the UN chamber and declare that Palestine will start talks with all of its neighbours on peace and mutual borders starting from a neutral base. After declaring that fair and free elections would be held to elect a government based around residents of the state of Palestine and not foreign nationals.

BDS is not Palestinian, and it does not speak for the Palestinians which you know by the number of links to Palestinian sources that demand BDS stop destroying Palestine.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You push this claim quite often.

P F Tinmore, et al,

If you look at the agreed upon international boundaries, there was no independently recognized State of Palestine to be considered.

(COMMENT)

Yes, that is interesting. The Arab Palestinians, not being a state or recognized government, were not a party to a conflict and did not have a sovereign territory at stake. You will notice that in Article 3 - International Boundary, of the Treaty of Peace 1994, and Annex I (a) Jordan-Israel International Boundary Delimitation And Demarcation, were as: "The boundary Line shall follow the middle of the main course of the flow of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers." as an example. While it is assumed that the Treaty is made without prejudice to the Arab Palestinians, no separate Treaties have ever been established between Israel and the Palestinians. At the time of the 1967 Six Day War, the West Bank was sovereign Jordanian Territory. In 1988, Jordan took independent and unilateral action when it abandon (terra nullius means "land belonging to nobody.") the West Bank. Israel had sole effective control on 1 August, 1988 when the Jordanian Government "disengaged from the West Bank." (" Finally, on July 31 King Hussein announced the severance of all administrative and legal ties with the occupied West Bank.')

At that time, no other country either demanded or maintained effective control of the West Bank. The idea that the West Bank or the Gaza Strip were "taken from the Arab Palestinians" is 100% erroneous. The Israeli's occupied that land for 20 years + before the Arab Palestinians attempted "self-determination in creating a near failed state (a political entity that has deteriorated to the point where basic responsibilities of a sovereign government are no longer functioning properly).

Most Respectfully,
R

Yes, that is interesting. The Arab Palestinians, not being a state or recognized government, were not a party to a conflict and did not have a sovereign territory at stake.​

Note: Palestine did have a government during the armistice agreements but it was not a party to the 1948 war.

3. Reaffirms the inalienable right of the Namibian people, the
Palestinian people and all peoples under foreign and colonial domination to
self-determination, national independence, territorial integrity, national
unity and sovereignty without outside interference;\

A/RES/37/43. Importance of the universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination and of the speedy granting of independence to colonial countries and peoples for the effective guarantee and observance of human rights​

Where do you get that the Palestinians have no territory?

Link?

(COMMENT)

First, --- ALL peoples everywhere have the right to self-determination. The right to self-determination does not mean that an opposing force has to hand it to the claimant on a silver platter. All peoples have the right to tangible things, like a million dollars. It doesn't mean that a bank has to give it to them as "unearned income." And All Peoples have the right to be happy. It does not mean that we have to hire a clown for them.

Second, --- the right to self-determination, national independence, territorial integrity, national
unity and sovereignty, applies equally to the Jewish People. Just because the Arab Palestinians make a demand, does not mean that the UN Recommendation offered to and accepted by the Jewish People must be void.

Third, --- At the time of the Arab Invasion (15 May 1948) - crossing their individual boundaries into the Successor Government of the UNPC over the territory, there was NO Arab Palestinian Government. The Arab Higher Committee, with no territorial control over anywhere in the Region, acted on behave of the Arab Palestinian. The All Palestine Government was under the protection and control of the Egyptian Occupation Forces in Gaza. The territory of the West Bank was under the control of the Jordanian Occupation. The remainder of the territory, formerly under the Mandate for Palestine, was in Israeli control.

Fourth, --- There are two importance aspects to A/RES/37/43.

• Whatever your interpretation of its meaning, its meaning could not have an effect on event that took place three decades (plus) before the 1982 General Assembly Resolution was created.

According to the Charter of the United Nations, the General Assembly may:

• Consider and approve the United Nations budget and establish the financial assessments of Member States;
• Elect the non-permanent members of the Security Council and the members of other United Nations councils and organs and, on the recommendation of the Security Council, appoint the Secretary-General;
• Consider and make recommendations on the general principles of cooperation for maintaining international peace and security, including disarmament;
• Discuss any question relating to international peace and security and, except where a dispute or situation is currently being discussed by the Security Council, make recommendations on it;
• Discuss, with the same exception, and make recommendations on any questions within the scope of the Charter or affecting the powers and functions of any organ of the United Nations;
• Initiate studies and make recommendations to promote international political cooperation, the development and codification of international law, the realization of human rights and fundamental freedoms, and international collaboration in the economic, social, humanitarian, cultural, educational and health fields;
• Make recommendations for the peaceful settlement of any situation that might impair friendly relations among nations;
• Consider reports from the Security Council and other United Nations organs.

But a Generalized Resolution is not Law; and must go through a specific process.​

• Since when did the General Assembly Resolution on the Importance of the universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination... December 1982, go into law? That is right, it did not. It is a variation on a theme found in Article I of the UN Charter (self-determination). And that did not specifically apply to the Question of Palestine, in that, the Charter is not clairvoyant --- written by seer who publishing the Charter as a collections of prophecies. No claim was made by any Arab Authority that one of the Allied Powers was acting as a colonial power using the Jewish people as a proxy. And the Jewish Agency, to which the​

Finally, --- The Palestinians had no direct control of any territory in a stand-alone fashion. The Successor Government to the Mandatory was the UN Palestine Commission. Israel was controlled by Israel. The West Bank was controlled by Jordan; and the Gaza Strip was controlled by the Egyptian Government through the All Palestine Government (established by 22 September 1948 and dissolved in 1959 by the Egyptian Government). The Jewish Agency may have been described as a recognized as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine, it was not a foreign government or Colonial Power within the Allied Powers.

Most Respectfully,
R

Finally, --- The Palestinians had no direct control of any territory in a stand-alone fashion.​

Of course that is a meaningless statement. That is not a requirement for the inalienable rights of a people.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence,​

Do you have a document for the right to self determination of the Jews?

And which treaty is that taken from and in what year was it formulated ? And does it mention Palestine by name as one of those non self governing territories ?


You need to understand that what was expected in 1948 is not the same as what was expected in 1967, or 2015. In other words you cant expect laws drawn up in 2015 to be valid for 1948 without them also being valid for 1750, 1099 or 635.



Yes it is the LoN mandate of Palestine that sets their rights in stone. You are shown this every time you ask the same stupid question as if the wording will somehow change overnight. Then there is the UN charter, or more precisely the section added in 1949

Link posted a couple pages ago.

So why don't you post it again so we don't need to keep flitting back and forth. Or does it apply after the fact , and so is being used retrospectively in the hope no one will notice

 

[Phoenall]

Wait, what?! Aren't you the one who keeps arguing for the inalienable rights to self-determination? Does this not apply to Jews?

There are multiple UN resolutions and other documents expressing the inalienable right of the Palestinian's to self determination.

I haven't seen any for the Jews. That is why I asked.

Because they apply to all nations and not just Palestine. So when will the Palestinians take the next baby step to full self determination and become a nation standing on its own two feet ?

They are. Its called BDS.

The above perhaps perfectly defines the debilitating disease of Pal’istanian Mentality™.

It's a condition symptomatic of feeble excuses for a complete lack of ability to take responsibility for the pratfalls, disasters, gaffes and general inability to manage one's affairs.

I'm afraid that the silly BDS’ers have no better plan for managing the civil affairs of government than the Islamic terrorists occupying Gaza have. It's both pitiful and a little contemptible that Pali-arabs refuse to hold themselves responsible for their self-created inability to hold to some pretty basic standards of rational behavior. But then, islamist ideology is fully at odds with relevant, first world standards of behavior.

It really is remarkable that with acknowledgement of the billions of dollars of welfare payments that continues the fraud of Pal'istanians, these knuckle-draggers still cannot manage to crawl their way out of the diseased society they have created.

What's infuriating is that the relevant first world continues the charade such that on the one hand, Pal’istanian arab terrorists criticize, condemn and revile the hated Westerners/infidels who shower them with money while on the other hand they continually come begging for more like some underpaid prostitute.

Nice rant!

But very true of the Palestinian/muslim mentallity

 

[Phoenall]

Do you have a document for the right to self determination of the Jews?

Wait, what?! Aren't you the one who keeps arguing for the inalienable rights to self-determination? Does this not apply to Jews?

There are multiple UN resolutions and other documents expressing the inalienable right of the Palestinian's to self determination.

I haven't seen any for the Jews. That is why I asked.

So the right of self-determination is not an inherent right. Its only a right when it is granted or assigned or conferred upon a group?

It comes with the territory, literally.

All peoples have the right to self determination.

Define the meaning of peoples.

Define the meaning of self determination, and in doing so show why the Palestinians have refused to take it in board. Only they can give themselves free determination, we cant hand it to them on a plate as that would be foreign interference.


The definition you crave is a group of humans with similar beliefs, customs, morals and needs. They do not need to be from the same place and can be widespread, as in the Jews who inhabit the whole world. They can be a sub group of a larger group again as in the Jews who have various groups who have different beliefs, customs and morals.

 

[Phoenall]

Wait, what?! Aren't you the one who keeps arguing for the inalienable rights to self-determination? Does this not apply to Jews?

There are multiple UN resolutions and other documents expressing the inalienable right of the Palestinian's to self determination.

I haven't seen any for the Jews. That is why I asked.

So the right of self-determination is not an inherent right. Its only a right when it is granted or assigned or conferred upon a group?

It comes with the territory, literally.

All peoples have the right to self determination.

Define the meaning of peoples.

Yes, yes. Are you going to give me the same bullshit argument Challenger is giving me over on the other thread? The Jewish people are not a people.

Why don't you give me your meaning of "peoples".

You wouldn't believe me if I told you. You should figure it out on your own.

So you don't have a valid unbiased answer, who would have thought it possible ?

 

[Phoenall]

You wouldn't believe me if I told you. You should figure it out on your own.

No, actually I am quite excited to hear your thoughts. I will very likely disagree with you since your aim seems to be to deny fundamental rights to the Jewish people and only the Jewish people. I have a definition which applies universally and doesn't pick and choose based on who you wish to exclude. Do you?

No you aren't. You will just blow off anything I say. If you figure it out for yourself, you can't blame me for being incorrect.

Will you accept the American definition of " people " then


[countable]a group consisting of all the persons who belong to a nation, religion, or race: can be followed by a singular or plural verb


the Japanese/Spanish/German people

They are a proud, dignified people.

Over thousands of years, peoples from central Asia came to settle here.

 

[Phoenall]

Then wanting to be recognized as a Palestinian State is also apartheid.

Don't change the subject, we're not talking about that.

Lead by example, and stop deflecting and derailing when the arguments get out of your control

 

[Phoenall]

Of course we are talking about that. You want to have a special set of rules for Israel and Jews. I'm only pointing out the hypocrisy of that attitude.

The thread title does not say "Apartheid in Palestine", it says "Apartheid in Israel".

Stop jerking us around!

And I am still waiting for you to provide an unbiased non partisan link that shows Israel to be apartheid. All you come up with is things that happen in Palestine covered by International law.

 

[Challenger]

OK. The French are a people. The British are a people. The Canadians are a people. The Palestinians are a people. And on. They are all the people of their respective place. Collectively, all of these different sets of people are peoples. It is the people of the place who have rights. The French cannot claim sovereignty in Britain because it is not their place.

Are the Jewish people a people? Yes or no?

Do all people(s) (including the Jewish people) have an inherent right to self-determination? Yes or no?

Do they only have an inherent right to self-determination in certain places? If yes, what places?

If they are removed from their place, do they or do they not maintain their rights as people of that place?

That's No, No, No and No.

 

[Phoenall]

It comes with the territory, literally.

All peoples have the right to self determination.

Define the meaning of peoples.

You have to decide what you are arguing. Are you arguing that people have an inherent right to self-determination? Or are you arguing that self-determination is an outcome of treaties and agreements?

Are you arguing that people...​

Not people, peoples. Let's not change the debate.

OK. The French are a people. The British are a people. The Canadians are a people. The Palestinians are a people. And on. They are all the people of their respective place. Collectively, all of these different sets of people are peoples. It is the people of the place who have rights. The French cannot claim sovereignty in Britain because it is not their place.

So are the Roma not a people, the Bedouins, the Inuits and all the other groups that have a nomadic lifestyle. Does this mean the Syrians that moved with the harvests across the M.E. have no sovereignty because they have no ties to the lands they work ? Does this mean that now the "Palestinians" have been evicted from the lands they stole in 1949 that they are no longer a people.

Your attempt at taking away the Jews inherent rights by your play on words has failed as the Jews were and are a people. This was recognised in the 20C which is why they were granted 22% of palestine for their NATIONal home. The arab muslims received 78% of Palestine as theirs.


Your comparison fails as the French already claim sovereignty over most of the UK because of rights of conquest, and they have lived here ever since. You would have been better using Americans claims to America, which according to your criteria are ZERO