Bush pushes immigration reform

[ScreamingEagle]

Bush spoke in Yuma today about immigration reform. He is appealing to Republican right wingers in order to pass immigration bill.

Bush to relaunch push for immigration reform
70 HOUSE GOP VOTES NEEDED TO CONSIDER BILL, SPEAKER SAYS
By Jonathan Weisman
Washington Post
Article Launched: 04/09/2007 01:32:01 AM PDT

WASHINGTON - President Bush will relaunch his push for a sweeping overhaul of the nation's immigration laws today in Arizona, with a fresh speech on the border, a new congressional leadership that is friendlier to his views but facing the same dynamics that scuttled his last attempt: a cooperative Senate but bipartisan opposition in the House.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-San Francisco, has told the White House she cannot pass a bill with Democratic votes alone, nor will she seek to enforce party discipline on the issue. Bush will have to produce at least 70 Republican votes before she considers a vote on comprehensive immigration legislation, a task that might be difficult for a president saddled with low approval ratings.

Her party's conservatives, particularly freshmen who seized their seats from Republicans, had to weather a barrage of attacks on the issue before their victories in November, and are not eager to relive the experience, Democratic aides and lawmakers say. Some of those freshmen - such as Reps. Nancy Boyda, D-Kan., Brad Ellsworth, D-Ind., Nick Lampson, D-Texas, and Heath Shuler, D-N.C. - are opposed to any bill that would allow any of the nation's estimated 12 million illegal immigrants legal residence or citizenship, at least until new border controls are implemented and working.

"I've been respectful with my leadership, but I have been very firm on where I stand," said Boyda, who endured a string of attack ads last fall from former Rep. Jim Ryun accusing her of favoring "amnesty" for undocumented workers. "I think they know I will be voting to represent my district, and they want me to do that."

In his speech in Yuma, Bush will stress four elements that he has to see in an immigration bill: more border security; better enforcement of immigration laws, especially laws against the hiring of undocumented workers; a temporary-worker program to address labor shortages; and "resolving without amnesty and without animosity the status of the millions of illegal immigrants that are here right now," said White House spokesman Scott Stanzel.

A recently leaked White House presentation devised after weeks of closed meetings with Republican senators suggests some hardening of his positions, however.

As spelled out in the White House presentation, which aides describe as ideas for debate, undocumented workers could apply for three-year work visas, renewable indefinitely at a cost of $3,500 each time. To get a green card that would make them legal permanent residents, they would have to return to their home countries, apply for re-entry at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate and pay a $10,000 fine.

In a new twist, more green cards would be made available to skilled workers by limiting visas for parents, children and siblings of U.S. citizens. Temporary workers would not be able to bring their families into the country.

Key Democrats have said the plan would unacceptably split families while creating a permanent underclass of temporary workers with no prospects of fully participating in U.S. society.

 

[Gunny]

Bush spoke in Yuma today about immigration reform. He is appealing to Republican right wingers in order to pass immigration bill.

Here's a novel idea .... let's enforce the laws we have on the books.

 

[jasendorf]

Legal immigration is severely broken. Illegal immigrants provide cheaper labor. What needs to happen.

1) The legal immigration path needs to be fixed. Right now the backlog alone is making it almost impossible to gain legal citizenship. We have a Canadian dba where I work. He and his family have been here for seven years. He never imagined at the time that his now 19 and 18 year-old sons wouldn't be able to work because they weren't citizens yet. His whole family has been stuck in "stage three" (his words, not mine) for over a year now and he's still caught up in the million-application backlog. He's been working on his family's citizenship for 5 years now and is still ooking at anywhere from a year to two years to finish. That's his reward for doing it "the right way."

2) Those who prey on the cheap labor of illegal immigrants need to be dealt with. They provide the demand. And, anyone who understands the demand in "supply and demand" knows that that is what drives the system.

 

[jasendorf]

Here's a novel idea .... let's enforce the laws we have on the books.

The laws are broken.

Legal immigration is too complicated and cheap illegal labor is too lucrative. Until both those problems are solved, there will be no solution to our illegal immigration problem.

 

[Gunny]

The laws are broken.

Legal immigration is too complicated and cheap illegal labor is too lucrative. Until both those problems are solved, there will be no solution to our illegal immigration problem.

That's part of it. The fact that Juan can sashay over the Rio Grande at his leisure in a bright orange jeep blaring Tejano music is another REAL issue.

I have no sympathy for employers who are making an even bigger profit by hiring illegals if they suddenly have to start paying real wages and the taxes that go with them. IMO, they're as much criminals as the illegals are. Both enrich themselves at the expense of the social infrastructure.

 

[jasendorf]

That's part of it. The fact that Juan can sashay over the Rio Grande at his leisure in a bright orange jeep blaring Tejano music is another REAL issue.

Merely a consequence of the aforementioned problems. If juan could get over here without a barrel of red tape and couldn't get a job here even if he did... the only security we'd need would be a dotted line in chalk along the border. (Well, of course if we didn't have that terrorism problem, but the terrorism problem is a different issue altogether)

I have no sympathy for employers who are making an even bigger profit by hiring illegals if they suddenly have to start paying real wages and the taxes that go with them. IMO, they're as much criminals as the illegals are. Both enrich themselves at the expense of the social infrastructure.

Problem is that the penalty(ies) for hiring are almost non-existant. And, even when they're caught, they act all surprised and lie about their knowledge of their employees' status. My favorite are the companies that get caught with hundreds of illegal employees and then act as if the "sophisticated illegal immigrant cartel" fooled them into hiring them.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Merely a consequence of the aforementioned problems. If juan could get over here without a barrel of red tape and couldn't get a job here even if he did... the only security we'd need would be a dotted line in chalk along the border. (Well, of course if we didn't have that terrorism problem, but the terrorism problem is a different issue altogether)

If Juan is stopped cold at the border our problem is solved before it even begins...no illegal immigrant problem if they can't cross the border.

The terrorism problem is not really a different issue...no terror if they can't cross the border.

 

[jasendorf]

If Juan is stopped cold at the border our problem is solved before it even begins...no illegal immigrant problem if they can't cross the border.

Right ... how's that working out for the drug trade?

Your ignorance of supply and demand is astounding. If the demand is high enough, and the potential rewards outweigh the potential risk... no walls or guards or barbed wire is going to put an end to it. Let's see how walls have fared in history.

Wall of Jericho... casualty of a trumpet.
Great Wall of China... Monguls rode around it.
Wall of Rome... numerous tribes tumbled through them.
Maginot Line... Germans smashed through it.
Atlantic Wall... Allies found its weakness and smashed through it.
Berlin Wall... plenty of people tunneled under it, climbed it.

Ignorant of history = ignorant of a workable solution... that's your problem.

The terrorism problem is not really a different issue...no terror if they can't cross the border.

Right ... ok, illustrate to us how any one of the 9/11 hijackers ran across the Rio Grande to gain entry into the U.S. Any one of them.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Right ... how's that working out for the drug trade?

Your ignorance of supply and demand is astounding. If the demand is high enough, and the potential rewards outweigh the potential risk... no walls or guards or barbed wire is going to put an end to it. Let's see how walls have fared in history.

Wall of Jericho... casualty of a trumpet.
Great Wall of China... Monguls rode around it.
Wall of Rome... numerous tribes tumbled through them.
Maginot Line... Germans smashed through it.
Atlantic Wall... Allies found its weakness and smashed through it.
Berlin Wall... plenty of people tunneled under it, climbed it.

Ignorant of history = ignorant of a workable solution... that's your problem.


Right ... ok, illustrate to us how any one of the 9/11 hijackers ran across the Rio Grande to gain entry into the U.S. Any one of them.

Your stupidity is asstounding. Everything is not just supply and demand. There is such a thing as taking political/physical action. All of those walls worked to a great degree during their time. Even the beginning of monitoring of our borders is starting to show some success. It may not be perfect but it can certainly slow down the river to a trickle if done well. It's the quickest way to stop the incoming hordes. Or are you just one of the idiots willing to lie back and let them turn our country into another third world country?

Of course there are a myriad of methods for terrorists to infiltrate our country. However, what's one of the best ways today to smuggle in a nuclear suitcase?

My problem is liberal idiots like you.

 

[Gunny]

Your stupidity is asstounding. Everything is not just supply and demand. There is such a thing as taking political/physical action. All of those walls worked to a great degree during their time. Even the beginning of monitoring of our borders is starting to show some success. It may not be perfect but it can certainly slow down the river to a trickle if done well. It's the quickest way to stop the incoming hordes. Or are you just one of the idiots willing to lie back and let them turn our country into another third world country?

Of course there are a myriad of methods for terrorists to infiltrate our country. However, what's one of the best ways today to smuggle in a nuclear suitcase?

My problem is liberal idiots like you.

We could seal the border. We will not. Americans fear being called names by foreign governments than they do the collapse of our social infrastructure.

Jasendorf has a point. As long as $ = power, those that have are not going to make any great effort to change the status quo, and those who are reaping the benefits of illegal aliens are also the ones who buy the political clout. As long as the fine for hiring them is a slap on the wrist, there is no incentive for them to stop.

I'm for a serious, military-type wall AND closing the loopholes in the law, to include making the penalty for traffcking in and/or hiring illegals hurt what appears to be the most important things to them ... the wallet.

 

[William Joyce]

Wall of Jericho... casualty of a trumpet.
Great Wall of China... Monguls rode around it.
Wall of Rome... numerous tribes tumbled through them.
Maginot Line... Germans smashed through it.
Atlantic Wall... Allies found its weakness and smashed through it.
Berlin Wall... plenty of people tunneled under it, climbed it.

But these walls were in many senses attempts to fill the gap where the political will didn't exist. Rome was rotting from the inside as much as anything else: its people had become overfed and decadent and they'd lost their warrior edge. East Germany was failing as a government and people were trying to get out, not in.

The U.S. is like the Roman Empire (I know many make this comparison, but damn if it doesn't seem right) in the end days: this huge, overarching operation waging pointless wars far, far away but unable to command stability and respect on its own soil. It's made up of many different peoples and cultures and languages from every corner of the globe, and nobody's really loyal to the central authority except under pain of paying taxes.

 

[jasendorf]

Your stupidity is asstounding. Everything is not just supply and demand. There is such a thing as taking political/physical action. All of those walls worked to a great degree during their time. Even the beginning of monitoring of our borders is starting to show some success. It may not be perfect but it can certainly slow down the river to a trickle if done well. It's the quickest way to stop the incoming hordes. Or are you just one of the idiots willing to lie back and let them turn our country into another third world country?

The Republicans are doing a fine job of turning our country into Mexico as it is... they're waging war on the middle class and, faster than at any time in our nation's history, making the rich richer, faster than they're even making the poor poorer. The "horde" (surprised you didn't use the word "mongrel" with it) isn't what will turn this country into Third World status. Third World status will come from the pooling of wealth with the wealthy while the rest of the country starves.

Of course there are a myriad of methods for terrorists to infiltrate our country. However, what's one of the best ways today to smuggle in a nuclear suitcase?

My problem is liberal idiots like you.

Still waiting for you to illustrate any ONE of the 9/11 terrorists coming across our southern border. Still waiting. You've got 20 to choose from... surely, if all of your hand-wringing is justified you'll be able to show us just one won't you?

If you're going to be a terrorism alarmist... be ready to back your alarmism up with some facts. If you want to fix our problem with illegal immigration, be ready to propose solutions that work, not ones ignorant of history.

 

[jasendorf]

But these walls were in many senses attempts to fill the gap where the political will didn't exist. Rome was rotting from the inside as much as anything else: its people had become overfed and decadent and they'd lost their warrior edge. East Germany was failing as a government and people were trying to get out, not in.

The U.S. is like the Roman Empire (I know many make this comparison, but damn if it doesn't seem right) in the end days: this huge, overarching operation waging pointless wars far, far away but unable to command stability and respect on its own soil. It's made up of many different peoples and cultures and languages from every corner of the globe, and nobody's really loyal to the central authority except under pain of paying taxes.

I was going to lambaste this post... but then I stood back and thought about it...

You're right. Americans aren't loyal to a central authority. The problem isn't that we're not, the problem is that we never have been but those who desire power wish us to be.

Americans have always been loyal to a central IDEA. An idea that a democratic, representative government whose economy is based in loosely regulated capitalism serves the people of our country the best.

What you speak of above, "a central authority," is what the Cubans and the North Koreans have. Maybe instead of looking for "loyal Bushies" we could get a government which looks for loyal Americans?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

The Republicans are doing a fine job of turning our country into Mexico as it is... they're waging war on the middle class and, faster than at any time in our nation's history, making the rich richer, faster than they're even making the poor poorer. The "horde" (surprised you didn't use the word "mongrel" with it) isn't what will turn this country into Third World status. Third World status will come from the pooling of wealth with the wealthy while the rest of the country starves.

It isn't just the Republicans, it's the Democrats too. I'm disgusted with BOTH parties when it comes to this issue. Other than a few conservatives nobody in Congress is pushing to really resolve the problems of the incoming hordes (the term is mongols, not mongrels). Bush's plan, while being a step in the right direction, falls short.

Third world status will happen when our educational, welfare, medical, etc. systems are all destroyed by having too many demands upon them. Chaos will reign while the middle class disappears as the illegals suck our country dry and incomes decrease.

Still waiting for you to illustrate any ONE of the 9/11 terrorists coming across our southern border. Still waiting. You've got 20 to choose from... surely, if all of your hand-wringing is justified you'll be able to show us just one won't you?

If you're going to be a terrorism alarmist... be ready to back your alarmism up with some facts. If you want to fix our problem with illegal immigration, be ready to propose solutions that work, not ones ignorant of history.

Why should I have to illustrate anything about 9-11 terrorists? I'm more worried about the 10-12 terrorists. You're crazy if you think they aren't infiltrating across our borders bringing in their weapons. It's pretty certain that there are many sleeper agents just waiting for the word. Can't wait for the day terrorist nukes, etc. are set off simultaneously in cities across our country.

Apparently you aren't aware of the terrorist plan called "American Hiroshima".
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