Bush Promises to Nuke Iran

[Gunny]

Pot calling the kettle black.

Hardly. The difference being is I have my ideals and what I consider a perfect world, but I do not confuse them with the reality on the ground, nor do I view everything from a singular, extremist point of view.

 

[Taomon]

Hardly. The difference being is I have my ideals and what I consider a perfect world, but I do not confuse them with the reality on the ground, nor do I view everything from a singular, extremist point of view.

Like the military as an institution does not lie, only people do? Or that the military does not commit atrocities?

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Oh I see, so human rights policies are bad and brutal regime's like the Shah of Iran's are good. Of course, now I see.

You are all sheep.

Like I said, you forgot to mention what happened after Jimmeh, overthrew them. 20,000 murders committed. But like I said, don't let facts get in the way.

 

[Gunny]

Like the military as an institution does not lie, only people do? Or that the military does not commit atrocities?

I don't know what that has to do with anything I said, but to clarify ...

The military as an institution CANNOT lie. The military carries out the government's policies it does not create them.

It is against the law in the US military to commit war crimes and is punishable under the same. Individuals who commit war crimes are in fact in violation of military law, besides any other laws they may be in violation of.

Again, the facts do not support your accusations.

 

[jillian]

I am not peachy keen with missiles being fired into Israel. I never said that. I simply stated, many times over that the Pakistanis have just as much right to defend themselves. It is your contention that Pakistan is wrong and Israel is only defending themselves when they shoot unarmed civilians.

One... again, Israel has nothing to do with Pakistan. Remember the map in our last discussion.... Pakistan is all the waaaaaaaaaaay, waaaaaaaaaaay, east of Iran. You mean Palestinians.

Again, Israel doesn't shoot "unarmed civilians" as a matter of tactic. The Palestinians do.

And for the record, Israel borders Pakistan. The Gaza strip is overrun by both countries. It should be Pakistani territory, but Israel wants it and encroaches upon it.

The problem here is you really don't know the difference between Palestine and Pakistan. Again, the Gaza is part of the Palestinian territories. Israel wants nothing to do with them. In fact, Israel has already unilaterally withdrawn from the Gaza. So maybe they should stop firing kadushas.

Again, it's really silly to discuss life and death issues when you know nothing about them.

And no I am not exactly a pacifist. I do abhorr violence, but will use it to defend myself or those who cannot defend themselves. I know that is the reason given for invading Iraq, but our actions there speak louder than words.

I don't think we should have invaded Iraq either. But it has nothing to do with wanting to attack people who can't defend themselves. That's a fairly simplistic assessment.

And you base your statement on the fact that you disagree with me regarding who has rights and who doesn't.

No. I base my statement on the fact that you're ok with violence when it's used by terrorists. So clearly you're not allergic to it. Repeatedly saying you're a pacifist isn't really honest.

I don't think Bush can pull off peace in Israeli-Pakistani areas. He will try to use aggression, as the Isreali's have. It will be a slaughter.

Again, Israel walked out of the Gaza without a shot. So you really should inform yourself before discussing this issue.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

What I loved was Israel was accused of all kind of nasty stuff for "occupying" Gaza and then when they left the EXACT same people called them all kind of names FOR leaving.

 

[Taomon]

One... again, Israel has nothing to do with Pakistan. Remember the map in our last discussion.... Pakistan is all the waaaaaaaaaaay, waaaaaaaaaaay, east of Iran. You mean Palestinians.

Again, Israel doesn't shoot "unarmed civilians" as a matter of tactic. The Palestinians do.



The problem here is you really don't know the difference between Palestine and Pakistan. Again, the Gaza is part of the Palestinian territories. Israel wants nothing to do with them. In fact, Israel has already unilaterally withdrawn from the Gaza. So maybe they should stop firing kadushas.

Again, it's really silly to discuss life and death issues when you know nothing about them.



I don't think we should have invaded Iraq either. But it has nothing to do with wanting to attack people who can't defend themselves. That's a fairly simplistic assessment.



No. I base my statement on the fact that you're ok with violence when it's used by terrorists. So clearly you're not allergic to it. Repeatedly saying you're a pacifist isn't really honest.



Again, Israel walked out of the Gaza without a shot. So you really should inform yourself before discussing this issue.

Are you Jewish? Why do you always side with the Israeli state? You act as though Israel never commits any crimes or atrocities. Wake up sister. Why do you think we were attacked on 9/11? Not because people are jealous of our freedom. It is because of our foreign policies that get innocent unarmed civilians - especially the Palestinians who don't live in Pakistan according to you -murdered by Israeli troops.

 

[onedomino]

Are you Jewish? Why do you always side with the Israeli state? You act as though Israel never commits any crimes or atrocities. Wake up sister. Why do you think we were attacked on 9/11? Not because people are jealous of our freedom. It is because of our foreign policies that get innocent unarmed civilians - especially the Palestinians who don't live in Pakistan according to you -murdered by Israeli troops.

This lying propaganda is so far over the top and disconnected from reality that it is impossible to dignify it with comment other than to condemn it.

 

[Gunny]

Are you Jewish? Why do you always side with the Israeli state? You act as though Israel never commits any crimes or atrocities. Wake up sister. Why do you think we were attacked on 9/11? Not because people are jealous of our freedom. It is because of our foreign policies that get innocent unarmed civilians - especially the Palestinians who don't live in Pakistan according to you -murdered by Israeli troops.

Please take the Israel Palestine argument to that specific subforum. That's what it's for.

 

[Taomon]

This lying propaganda is so far over the top and disconnected from reality that it is impossible to dignify it with comment other than to condemn it.

Go back to sleep onedomino, no need to believe anything negative about America. And when the next terror attack happens don't say I didn't tell you so.

 

[onedomino]

Go back to sleep onedomino, no need to believe anything negative about America. And when the next terror attack happens don't say I didn't tell you so.

I am wide awake to liars. And if we are lucky enough to avoid terrorist attacks in the future, it will be despite people like you. We have seen your nauseating type before, Taomon. Everything is America's fault. You even sided with the Iranians against the US Navy. Why do you put up with living in a country that is so evil? Why don't you immigrate to a place that shares your anti American views like Iran, or the Gaza Strip. Your mentality would be most welcome there.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Please take the Israel Palestine argument to that specific subforum. That's what it's for.

He thinks Pakistan is next to Israel, do you have a forum for ignorant people that can not even look at a map or follow along with current events?

 

[bush lover]

President Bush promised to finish off Iraq, Iran and North Korea. He has one more year to finish off Iran and North Korea. I urge him to attack the remainder of the Axis of Evil and finish them off before a terror-loving Dem liberal gets in. Full-scale attacks on these Evil-Doers would be a cakewalk for our military. Our President has to keep his promise.

 

[Dr Grump]

Are you Jewish? Why do you always side with the Israeli state? You act as though Israel never commits any crimes or atrocities. Wake up sister. Why do you think we were attacked on 9/11? Not because people are jealous of our freedom. It is because of our foreign policies that get innocent unarmed civilians - especially the Palestinians who don't live in Pakistan according to you -murdered by Israeli troops.

Of course she is Jewish. 9-11 was, if we are to be believed, committed by OBL and AQ. OBL's main plank is to rid Saudi Arabia of House of Saud and replace it with a fundamentalist Islamic totalitarian state (which is kinda ironic, in that it is more or less that anyway for the common people). Therefore I would say the motivation of 9-11 was to persuade the US to get rid of its bases in SA. Where Israel comes into this god only knows.

Do Israeli troops go OTT sometimes? Sure. But then look at the provocation. You give the pizza-parlour bombing terrorists a free pass?

 

[Psychoblues]

"I have justified our actions ethically plenty of times, and have not once heard a good argument that refutes it." lolololololol You can't justify your own existence, gunny. How could you possibly justify a freaking nuclear war?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?

Diplomacy was tried and failed for 12 years.

We do not occupy Iran brutally. The brutality comes from Islamic extremists waging a war of terror against their own people and us.

I have justified our actions ethically plenty of times, and have not once heard a good argument that refutes it.

What military personnel feel about being there is 1, irrelevant; and 2, a presumption on your part.

That military personnel take this presumed "hatred" out on civilians is pure, unsupported assumption based on an extremist POV.

Don't presume to tell me what I know because it appears you obviously have no idea.

The "admin" thing has really screwed your mind up, hasn't it?

 

[Annie]

Are you Jewish? Why do you always side with the Israeli state? You act as though Israel never commits any crimes or atrocities. Wake up sister. Why do you think we were attacked on 9/11? Not because people are jealous of our freedom. It is because of our foreign policies that get innocent unarmed civilians - especially the Palestinians who don't live in Pakistan according to you -murdered by Israeli troops.

Palestinians in Pakistan? Israel is murdering people in Pakistan? Duck, they both have nukes!

 

[jillian]

Are you Jewish? Why do you always side with the Israeli state? You act as though Israel never commits any crimes or atrocities. Wake up sister. Why do you think we were attacked on 9/11? Not because people are jealous of our freedom. It is because of our foreign policies that get innocent unarmed civilians - especially the Palestinians who don't live in Pakistan according to you -murdered by Israeli troops.

I'm kind of funny about not supporting people who lob missiles at my people. And I get kind of offended when someone like you, who talks about "oh, I'm a pacifist", I love everyone"... then says violence is ok, so long as it's against Israel. And someone with that opinion really should know something about a) the history of the confict; b) the geographics of the area; and c) the facts. And I notice that once again, you failed to respond to the facts I raised and opted to ask if I'm a Jew. Answer... yep, as my friend has already told you. Not really sure why that's relevant since the facts I gave you here, and the last time you couldn't respond to a single thing, were all true.

Again, Pakistan... country to the east of Iran, near India, two countries down from Uzbekistan.

Palestinians... live in the "Palestinian territories". Those are the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Nothing to do with Pakistan. Go do a google. It will make you look far less ignorant. I'm also curious as to why you've three times ignored being corrected on that point.

Sorry Gunny... I'm done.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Some maps for people to stupid to look them up themselves....

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...tan&um=1&start=3&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=3

and of course..

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/05/10/the-shrinking-map-of-palestine/


Wait here is a world map, pay attetion to where Pakistan is and Palestine.

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...map&um=1&start=3&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=3

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Why are some people SO bitter that they blame everything on the US? And no, Taoman, you wouldn't fight if someone invaded this country because you'd be too busy trying to figure out how the R's were cooking up some conspiracy that caused the attackers to attack.

 

[Doug]

Taomon: the world is almost always more complicated than we think it is. We necessarily over-simplify reality, otherwise our brains could not process all the available information. The trick is not to over-simplify in such a way that crucial elements of reality are left out.

You cannot understand the Israeli/Palestinian conflict without knowing the essentials of at least two other realities:

(1) Ethnic conflict in general, and
(2) The history of Jewry in particular.

(1) Ethnic conflict in general:

At one level, the Jewish/Arab struggle is just another dreary manifestation of ethnic conflict of which we have dozens of examples: two peoples claiming the same geographic territory, each strong enough to prevail in at least part of it, and maybe in all, given some luck. This produces your truly first-class horrors.

I have sometimes fantasized about starting my own specialized Travel Agency, along the lines of Green Holidays or Adventure Travel.

Mine would be called The Brotherhood of Man Travel Agency. I would organize world tours with an educational purpose.

Americans taking my tour would first fly to Belfast, in Northern Ireland, where we would visit certain sites, such as where a church full of Protestants were burned alive by Catholic nationalists, followed by a garage where Protestant "activists" held their Catholic victims and drilled holes in them with Black and Deckers. We would all read the Sermon on the Mount as background, since both sides held it in high esteem.

Then off to Cyprus, for some background on how the Greeks and the Turks on this island got along -- the Turks have a kind of mini-museum when you cross the Green Line in Nicosia, with some grisly photos in it of Turkish victims of Greeks who were fighting for Enosis, and I'm sure the Greeks can match them. Of course, Cyprus is a mere nothing, compared to the wholesale forced transfer of populations numbering millions between Greece and Turkey in 1920.

Then, over to the lovely Balkans! Fresh graves, colour photos, even some videotapes of rapes and torture made by the proud perpetrators! See Serbs massacre Muslims. See Muslim Albanians burn down ancient Serb Churches! See Croats do, and be done by, both Serbs and Muslims. Fun for all, in modern, socialist Yugoslavia, with its 700,000 mixed marriages, a positive shrine to joyous multi-ethnic harmony ... until fifteen years ago.

And now for a quick tour to some really obscure places: Armenia, one of the oldest Christian civilizations ... victims of the Turks (really, of the Kurds, who did the raping and killing for the Turks), and victimizers of the Azeris ... atrocity stories all round, everyone a victim, everyone a victimizer!

And then to Georgia, and Abkhazia, and a couple of other places and peoples you've never heard of (South Ossetia?), still simmering, relatives of missing and murdered people available to tell you how vicious the [_____________]'s are ...(instantiate the variable yourself and how brave their own side is, and how just their cause -- many permutations possible here.)

"This land is mine! My great-grandfather built that house with his own hands!" "No, it's mine. My great-great-grandfather was granted it after we drove out the ..." "My uncle was shot by your people right there on that spot!" "Well, what about my aunt, who was raped and then crucified on that very tree!" And on and endlessly on, perhaps exaggerated here and there, but basically true.

And we have hardly even left Europe! And we have skipped right over the Sudenten Germans, the Hungarians living outside of Hungary ... they don't merit any attention from Brotherhood of Man Tours because they have accepted their fates and have settled down to make money and go shopping. If they want a visit from us, they will have to start setting off car bombs.

Car bombs? Did someone say "car bombs"? If it's car bombs, it must be ... yes, Lebanon!

Sunny Lebanon, the Paris of the Middle East, with ... Maronite Christians, Druze, Sunnis and Shi'ites. All leaving peacefully together in multi-cultural harmony, ha ha ha. One land, many peoples, how lucky! Plenty of nice atrocity stories here. You can write an encyclopedia of them. Our own dear CIA even got in on the car bomb act. Well, when in Rome ..

Now, are we getting tired of intra-Abrahamic relgion-based ethnic slaughters? Maybe we should relax a bit by visiting a land inhabited by adherents of more peaceful, tolerant creeds, like Hinduism and Buddhism. Perhaps we can learn something from the gentle followers of these religions.

So, the Brotherhood of Man World Tour airplane soars into the sky above Beirut, avoiding the pillar of smoke from the latest Syrian assassination, and soon touches down in .... Sri Lanka!!! That appropriately tear-shaped island, where the Hindu Tamil Tigers, inventors of suicide bombing, and the Buddhist Sinhalese, show their Christian and Muslim brothers that the latter have no monopoly on stomach-turning mutual slaughter. (Personal note: a friend of mine, a Tamil, went back to Sri Lanka on holiday just in time for a periodic Sinhalese pogrom against his people -- he survived, but related stories of Tamil children being thrown alive into the fires of their burning homes.)

Let's end our tour here. For the true afficionado of Human Brotherhood Studies, there is a supplemental tour to India, to talk to survivors of Freedom at Midnight, and to the Muslim Biharis living in Bangladesh (who? where?) and Pakistan. Some nice photographs of them being ritually bayonetted to death by the triumphant Muslim Bengalis after Bangladesh's breakaway from their fellow Muslims in Pakistan.

For those with truly strong stomachs, who want to see atrocity taken to truly dizzying levels -- stuff that would make a Stormtrooper blanche -- we would visit Africa, for some Black-on-Black action. (Cut off the victim's ear and make him eat it? On Television? Why not?)

But that sets the background for the truly trivial Israeli/Palestinian interactions. They are just par for the course. Typical human behavior.

And that brings us to (2), but this post is too long already.

So let me end with a question for Taomon: if one people has violently seized a land from another, and driven the original surviving inhabitants onto occupied territories ... should the injustice be righted by the conquerors, or their descendants, giving up their stolen property and returning to the lands of their ancestors? Or does Might make Right?