Both sides won’t like my take on policing.

[Jarlaxle]

Yes. We need to focus on the ACTUAL problem. That is police brutality. Not race.
Police brutality comes in all shapes, sizes and colors.

I've never been "brutalized" by the police. But then again, except for two speeding infractions I've never broken any laws.

So?

Really? Your reading comprehension sub-par. What I said is that criminals are brutalized by the police, as it should be.

You're lying, or psychotic.

 

[Mac-7]

The issues we see today are NOT a race problem. They are a policing problem. Yes there IS a policing problem. I’ve been on this train long before Micheal Brown made it in the news. The stats simply don’t point to it being a race problem. Now, stick with me black folk. YES more black people per capita are killed by police than white people, despite only making up 13% of the population. What you have to take into account is the amount of police interactions each race is having. Around 20% of black men are felons. The number for whites is much lower. Not an indictment of race, has more to do with social status than anything. Low income white neighborhoods are basically indistinguishable from low income black neighborhoods, outside of the drugs used and choice of music. To become a felon means some sort of interaction with law enforcement. If you want to debate why that is, take it up in a different thread. Point of this is that when amount of police interaction are taken into consideration, whites are killed more often than blacks. Blacks on the other hand are the ones feeling the effects more so than whites in general.

Let’s use philando Castile as a case study. Yes he’s black, but there’s also a similar case of the white kid in Nevada sobbing on his knees begging the police not to shoot him, reaches to pull his pants up (that he already stated we’re falling down) and gets smoked. I digress. Philandos case recap: he’s pulled over, correctly tells the officer that he is carrying, and that he has his carrier permit. Officer tells him not to reach, Philando says something to the effect of I’m just grabbing my wallet, and then gets smoked. Officers in both cases were found to be completely within their rights to shoot. There lies your problem. Both officers were wrong to do so. But both officers were trained to do so. It’s ridiculous to me that police have a lower standard of use of lethal force than our soldiers do in literal war zones. Movies like lethal weapon have cops in gunfights on a daily basis. Policing overall is a fairly safe job. More dangerous than most, but other jobs like construction and garbage collection are more dangerous. Truth is that far more cops die when they’re hit by a car after pulling someone over than the apocalypse scenario they keep citing of getting shot by the driver they just pulled over. Yes that still happens, it’s tragic, but also extremely rare. Truth is what’s really killing cops is traffic accidents and diabetes (they are among the most overweight professions out there). Yet the amount of SWAT teams being created, tactical weaponry and vehicles being issued, and the no knock warrants has been exploding. This explosion was happening despite the already quickly declining crime rates.

So, what are solutions. Obviously there needs to be training reform. SOME departments are trained that if you draw your weapon, that is more often than not a failure because the police in the situation failed to de-escalate the situation. Most of the people they’re smoking are people with mental disabilities. Plenty are violent criminals, yes. Now I want cops to be armed and have every ability to defend themselves. But I also want there to be clear rules for use of lethal force. Clear rules for how they detain and subdue someone. We also need to get rid of police unions. Anytime a public sector union negotiates, THEY ARE NEGOTIATING AGAINST THE PUBLIC TAXPAYER. That goes for the rules they advocate, as well as the money they get. Some examples of some of those rules. The biggest is the Law Enforcement Bill of Rights (LEBOR). Basically many states have the LEBOR that’s states that police have to be treated with kid gloves when being investigated. This is immoral. Plain and simple. They have one system of justice, we have another. Another one that’s been mentioned a lot, that concerns me less, is the qualified immunity, which deals with civil suits. Still bullshit though.

The problem is not as simple as you present it

basically you are proposing stricter riles of engagement for the cops to reduce the number of citizens - in particular black citizens - being killed.

but I didnt see anything about improving the behavior of the people being stopped by the cops

which means you are making it more dangerous for the police to do their job

 

[sakinago]

The problem is not as simple as you present it

basically you are proposing stricter riles of engagement for the cops to reduce the number of citizens - in particular black citizens - being killed.

but I didnt see anything about improving the behavior of the people being stopped by the cops

which means you are making it more dangerous for the police to do their job

Yeah it’s a dangerous job. The degree to how much more dangerous is the issue. There is no goddamn way on gods green earth that you can justify our police having looser rules of engagement with citizens than our fucking troops in literal war zones. That’s insane. It doesn’t mean I don’t want cops to come home safe. But there’s no reason to be treating someone like philando Castile like someone whose been identified armed and dangerous. Philando Castile could be any of us, and that cop should’ve been charged with man slaughter.

Now If someone has been identified as armed and dangerous, then I think the cop in Castile. Case would’ve been justified. See. Isn’t nuance a good thing. I’m so sick and tired of the goddamn all or nothing arguments on both sides. COPS HAVE NO GREATER ROGHT TO LIFE THAN CITIZENS DO. If it was a citizen who shot philando simply for reaching, he’d be 100% thrown in prison.

 

[Mac-7]

There is no goddamn way on gods green earth that you can justify our police having looser rules of engagement with citizens than our fucking troops in literal war zones.

Thats an indictment of our stupid war zone policies

none of which I agree with either

 

[Mac-7]

COPS HAVE NO GREATER ROGHT TO LIFE THAN CITIZENS DO.

I agree

but they should have an equal right

when a citizen is stopped by the cops how they act determines how they are treated 99.999% of the time

but when a cop stops a citizen he never knows

cops get killed with no warning far more than unjustified killing of citizens by the cops

 

[sakinago]

I agree

but they should have an equal right

when a citizen is stopped by the cops how they act determines how they are treated 99.999% of the time

but when a cop stops a citizen he never knows

cops get killed with no warning far more than unjustified killing of citizens by the cops

Nope, what you said right there gives cops an extra right to life that is not afforded to citizens. “He looked nervous” like in the case of Castile is not even close to a justification to treat someone as armed and dangerous. “He looked nervous” or “shady” is not a justification for citizens or anyone else to treat someone as armed and dangerous to the point to where you can draw and shoot it they reach anywhere near their waistband, that’s insane. The Philando Castile case is unjustifiable, but here we are giving cops their own little fiefdom of every interaction they have over citizens, putting the responsibility entirely on the untrained citizens, and giving cops the power execute if they FEEL threatened.

 

[IM2]

The issues we see today are NOT a race problem. They are a policing problem. Yes there IS a policing problem. I’ve been on this train long before Micheal Brown made it in the news. The stats simply don’t point to it being a race problem. Now, stick with me black folk. YES more black people per capita are killed by police than white people, despite only making up 13% of the population. What you have to take into account is the amount of police interactions each race is having. Around 20% of black men are felons. The number for whites is much lower. Not an indictment of race, has more to do with social status than anything. Low income white neighborhoods are basically indistinguishable from low income black neighborhoods, outside of the drugs used and choice of music. To become a felon means some sort of interaction with law enforcement. If you want to debate why that is, take it up in a different thread. Point of this is that when amount of police interaction are taken into consideration, whites are killed more often than blacks. Blacks on the other hand are the ones feeling the effects more so than whites in general.

Let’s use philando Castile as a case study. Yes he’s black, but there’s also a similar case of the white kid in Nevada sobbing on his knees begging the police not to shoot him, reaches to pull his pants up (that he already stated we’re falling down) and gets smoked. I digress. Philandos case recap: he’s pulled over, correctly tells the officer that he is carrying, and that he has his carrier permit. Officer tells him not to reach, Philando says something to the effect of I’m just grabbing my wallet, and then gets smoked. Officers in both cases were found to be completely within their rights to shoot. There lies your problem. Both officers were wrong to do so. But both officers were trained to do so. It’s ridiculous to me that police have a lower standard of use of lethal force than our soldiers do in literal war zones. Movies like lethal weapon have cops in gunfights on a daily basis. Policing overall is a fairly safe job. More dangerous than most, but other jobs like construction and garbage collection are more dangerous. Truth is that far more cops die when they’re hit by a car after pulling someone over than the apocalypse scenario they keep citing of getting shot by the driver they just pulled over. Yes that still happens, it’s tragic, but also extremely rare. Truth is what’s really killing cops is traffic accidents and diabetes (they are among the most overweight professions out there). Yet the amount of SWAT teams being created, tactical weaponry and vehicles being issued, and the no knock warrants has been exploding. This explosion was happening despite the already quickly declining crime rates.

So, what are solutions. Obviously there needs to be training reform. SOME departments are trained that if you draw your weapon, that is more often than not a failure because the police in the situation failed to de-escalate the situation. Most of the people they’re smoking are people with mental disabilities. Plenty are violent criminals, yes. Now I want cops to be armed and have every ability to defend themselves. But I also want there to be clear rules for use of lethal force. Clear rules for how they detain and subdue someone. We also need to get rid of police unions. Anytime a public sector union negotiates, THEY ARE NEGOTIATING AGAINST THE PUBLIC TAXPAYER. That goes for the rules they advocate, as well as the money they get. Some examples of some of those rules. The biggest is the Law Enforcement Bill of Rights (LEBOR). Basically many states have the LEBOR that’s states that police have to be treated with kid gloves when being investigated. This is immoral. Plain and simple. They have one system of justice, we have another. Another one that’s been mentioned a lot, that concerns me less, is the qualified immunity, which deals with civil suits. Still bullshit though.

Police have had a race problem from the start. Racism is a problem in law enforcement Their problem with brutality increases if they consider races of people lesser. Racism allows them to justify their brutality and know that a portion of the public will go along with it. Whites racists want to pretend race doesn't have anything to do with life, but thats delusional. I am not calling you a white racist sakinago, I am referring to a response I read to your OP.

When we consider use of force the numbers show that blacks are beaten or killed at triple our population. That dogs are used on blacks way more than whites, so we just can't pretend race has nothing to do withis this. Yes we do need a national standard for use of force. If a police offer kills in any situation, it should go before a jury, not the departments internal affairs. Officers who beat people or kill no matter what the situation, should be detained until trial. If it is found they acted in true self defense then retro pay all back pay lost during detainment and restore that officer back to the status they had before trial. These kinds of accountability measures will make police think before the beat someboy up or fill them full of holes claiming they saw a gun in somebodys pcket.

Once police understand they are not above the law this behavior will decrease. If police are city employees then they should be in the city employee union, not one made just for police. You are right about police unions, they need to go.

So does qualified immunity. If you beat someone or kill someone there should be no immunity. Anyway, this was well said and all I will continue to say is that both these things are true about policing, they have a race problem and a police brutality problem. They have a misogyny problem also.

 

[Mac-7]

Nope, what you said right there gives cops an extra right to life that is not afforded to citizens.

Yes, and in their job they deserve it

 

[sakinago]

Yes, and in their job they deserve it

No they do not. You cannot treat all citizens like potential hostiles. You are advocating for looser rules of engagement than our soldiers.

 

[Mac-7]

No they do not. You cannot treat all citizens like potential hostiles. You are advocating for looser rules of engagement than our soldiers.

We are just repeating ourselves now

nothing either of us says after this is going to change the opinion of the other