Book Of Enoch

[Gracie]

Not right now. Perhaps another time. I just took my ONE single pain pill and a melatonin. Brain is a tad fuzzy.

A couple of shots of vodka does the trick for me. Not an alcoholic, but it dulls the pain. No better pain killer, IMHO. Maybe I should try to find a more comfortable bed too. Might help.

I sleep with lots of pillows. Support for my back, legs, etc. Turn on my side, I can hitch my leg over the body pillow. Flip to other side, another body pillow. One under my knees, eases my hips. I dislike the taste of alcohol.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Ashamed to say I never heard of such a book. I recognize the name, but...he had a book too? Which brings me to the question: why was it not included in the bible? So many gospels and books tossed to the wayside and not in there. So..why not?

Anyway..I googled and found this. Interesting.

Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

I have long been fascinated with the book of Enoch. To be clear, there is more than one book. All together there are 3, although, I think it evident that the first one is much, much older than the other 2 and written by a different author. The oldest transcripts date of Enoch 1 date back to the 15th century. However, Jude references Enoch in verse 14 and Jude was written between 70 to 90 AD.

Enoch 1 heavily influenced the early Christian culture and was used a great deal in their studies. Enoch is different than other pseudepigraphic writings because the Canonized Bible references it, which gives it credibility, and the fact it is so darn old. Enoch 1 was even found amongst the Dead Sea scrolls.

It is interesting that Jesus is obviously referenced in Enoch by the verses below even though he is not mentioned by name. It's almost as if written before Jesus walked the earth.

46 At that place, I saw the One in whom belongs the time before time. And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was foll of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one from among the angels who was going with me, and who had revealed to me all the secrets regarding the One who was born of human beings, “Who is this, and from whence is he who is going as the prototype of the Before Time?” And he answered me and said to me, “This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness and with whom righteousness dwells. And he will open all the hidden storerooms; for the Lord of the Spirits in eternal uprightness. This Son of Man whom you have seen is the One who would remove kings from their thrones. He shall loosen the reins of the strong and crush the teeth of the sinners. He will depose the kings from their thrones and kingdoms. For they do not extol and glorify him, and neither do they obey him, the source of their kingship. The faces of the strong will be slapped and be filled with shame and gloom. Their dwelling places and their beds will be worms. They will have no hope to rise from their beds, for they do not extol the name of the Lord of Spirits. And they have become the judges of the stars of heaven; they raise their hands to reach the Most High while walking upon the earth and dwelling in her. They manifest all their deeds in oppression; all their deeds are oppression. Their power depends upon their wealth. And their devotion is to the gods which they have fashioned with their own hands. But they deny the name of the Lord of Spirits. Ye they like to congregate in his houses and with the faithful ones who cling to the Lord of the Spirits.


48 Furthermore, in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness, which does not become depleted and is surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink and become filled with wisdom. Their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones. At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of Spirits, the Before-Time, even before the creation of the sun and moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. He will become a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles and he will become the hope of those who are sick in their hearts. All those who dwell upon the earth shall fall and worship before him, they will glorify, bless, and sing the name of the Lord of the Spirits. For this purpose he became the Chosen One; he was concealed in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits prior to the creation of the world, and for eternity. And he has revealed the wisdom of the Lord of the Spirits to the righteous and the holy ones, for he has preserved the portion of the righteous because they have hated and despised this world of oppression together with all its ways of life and its habits in his name and it is his good pleasure that they have life. In those days, the kings of the earth and the mighty landowners will be humiliated on account of the deeds of their hands. Therefore, on the day of their misery and weariness, they will not be able to save themselves. I shall deliver them into the hands of my elect ones like grass in the fire and like lead in the water, so shall they burn before the face of the holy ones and sink before their sight, an no place will be found for them. On the day of their weariness, there shall be an obstacle on the earth and they will fall on their faces; and they will not rise up again, nor anyone be found who will take them with his hands and raise them up. For they have denied the Lord of the Spirits and his Messiah. Blessed by the name of the Lord of the Spirits!

Notice how scornful Enoch is of the world governments. This is probably why it was left out of the Canonized Bible. After all, I'm sure Constantine did not appreciate being a world leader himself and faced with the prospect of being on the hit list in Enoch. Most people don't realize this but although Constantine embraced Christianity in making it the official religion of his kingdom, Constantine was not a Christian and continued to worship pagan gods. He even murdered members of his own family. It is rumored, though, that Constantine tried to convert on his death bed. So why did Constantine officially embrace the Christian faith even though he did not personally convert? He probably admired how the Christian faith spread despite being severely persecuted. It was almost as if the more Christians were persecuted the more the faith spread, so he adopted it as a tool of conquest.

It is interesting that Jesus is obviously referenced in Enoch by the verses below even though he is not mentioned by name. It's almost as if written before Jesus walked the earth.

Well, it seems that way for good reason: it was written before Jesus walked the Earth. Sections of Enoch 1, which is what Jude references, were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

• The Dead Sea Scrolls: Book of Giants
  
• Dead Sea Scrolls -- Enoch
  
• Scroll Spotlight - Biblical Archaeology Society

Unless Enoch is an anthology of sorts wherein writings of subsequent authors are continually added to it, starting at three-hundred something B.C. there's no way the books' author was alive some 300+ years later.

 

[Picaro]

Many people are most surprised to learn that nowhere in the Bible is Mary Magdalene described as a prostitute. Her reputation as a reformed prostitute has no explicit biblical support, but it does have church support. Pope Gregory I (d. 604) gave legs to this misinterpretation by delivering a sermon that equated both Mary of Bethany and the anonymous hair-washing sinner woman (Luke 7:36-50) with Mary Magdalene. This portrait also absorbed the story of the unnamed woman caught in adultery (John 7:53-8:11), the combination making the popular image of Mary Magdalene quite different from the biblical depictions.

The term 'prostitute' covered a lot of ground in Jewish society in those days; the use doesn't convey the modern meaning of the word. That's why I highly recommend reading Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus by Joachim Jeremias; it covers the culture and society of the times in great detail and is heavily sourced.

 

[Picaro]

A lot of the stuff in the bible is metaphoric, too.

Re Enoch, here is a page on why it isn't considered 'canon';not sure if thuis is what you're looking for, but in any case the book is still historically useful, as are some of the Apocrypha and other 'pseudo-books', like Pseudo-Barnabas and some others.

Why is the Book of Enoch not regarded as canonical?


What we don't know is when The Book of Enoch was written, who the author was, or what Jude was quoting. (The best I can tell, the Biblical figure Enoch was not the author, but rather, someone who lived closer to the time of Christ, or possibly even after, based on some of the references.) There are many arguments on all sides of this debate, but the real question in the back of many Christian minds is:

Is it Scripture?
Is this the Holy-Spirit inspired word of God? This is where we can pretty confidently say "no". If it were Scripture, we would expect it to be free of false doctrine. What we find instead is that false doctrine is one of the most prevalent themes in the book!

Taking a cursory look at the text up through Chapter 59, I found the following false doctrines. (I may be off on one here or there, but it should be sufficient to get my point across.)

• 1:1 Implies restoration during tribulation - not congruent with scriptures.
  
  
• 1:8 In conflict with the doctrine that peace was made at the cross. Also, in the last days tribulation will increase for the righteous - this "verse" seems to dispute that.
  
  
• 2:2-3 Appears to contradict 2 Pet 3:3-7
  
  
• 5:4 Is an admonition to some unknown party - this is very irregular relative to the scriptures (i.e. authentic ancient writings by God-fearing Jews)
  
  
• 6:3 Semjaza seems to be listed as the leader of the angels, which is not scriptural
  
  
• 6:3,8 None of these angels are mentioned in the Bible
  
  
• 8:1 Azazel isn't even listed in 6:8 as one of the angels that fornicated with women
  
  
• 8:3 Araqiel and Shamsiel aren't listed in 6:8 either
  
  
• 10:2 Enoch allegedly wrote about Noah, even though the Bible teaches that Enoch was taken up to heaven years before Noah was born.
  
  
• 10:4-6,12 Implies angels can be bound & hid in holes under rocks. This is contrary to scripture.
  
  
• 10:8 Ascribes all the sin of the fallen angels to one named Azazel - not scriptural.
  
  
• 10:15-11:2 Seems to imply that permanent restoration took place after the flood - clearly not true. It seems the true author of this book confused scriptures pertaining to the future restoration.
  
  
• 13:5-6,14:4-5,7 Implies fallen angels can't talk to God - this contradicts Job. Also implies that angels were repentant, but weren't received back by God - very strange doctrine.
  
  
• 14 Gives a very strange description of Heaven that conflicts with many scriptures
  
  
• 15:8-10 Very strange doctrine about "evil spirits" proceeding from unredeemable giants

... and so on.

The 'Comments' section is also good here.

 

[task0778]

Now do you see why I half assed believe what is written in the bible with a dose of doubt? Because it was written BY MAN, decided BY MAN what would be included in todays bible, and MAN has agendas. Back then, women were valued less than a horse.

Still are, in some places.

 

[Votto]

it's not in the Bible because it does not meet the requirements of inspired Scripture.

And who decides what is "required" inspired Scripture?

I believe God was responsible for that. Or do you claim that He had nothing to do with it? The fact remains that if there is no God, my claim is invalid. But if there is a God, He would have made sure that we got His message intact. Don't you think?

Doesn't Enoch point to Christ?

If so, who is it inspired by?

 

[Votto]

I wish I could thank AND click informative at the same time, Votto. Thank you for that.

Thank you for starting this thread. More people need to know about it.

 

[Votto]

Ashamed to say I never heard of such a book. I recognize the name, but...he had a book too? Which brings me to the question: why was it not included in the bible? So many gospels and books tossed to the wayside and not in there. So..why not?

Anyway..I googled and found this. Interesting.

Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

I have long been fascinated with the book of Enoch. To be clear, there is more than one book. All together there are 3, although, I think it evident that the first one is much, much older than the other 2 and written by a different author. The oldest transcripts date of Enoch 1 date back to the 15th century. However, Jude references Enoch in verse 14 and Jude was written between 70 to 90 AD.

Enoch 1 heavily influenced the early Christian culture and was used a great deal in their studies. Enoch is different than other pseudepigraphic writings because the Canonized Bible references it, which gives it credibility, and the fact it is so darn old. Enoch 1 was even found amongst the Dead Sea scrolls.

It is interesting that Jesus is obviously referenced in Enoch by the verses below even though he is not mentioned by name. It's almost as if written before Jesus walked the earth.

46 At that place, I saw the One in whom belongs the time before time. And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was foll of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one from among the angels who was going with me, and who had revealed to me all the secrets regarding the One who was born of human beings, “Who is this, and from whence is he who is going as the prototype of the Before Time?” And he answered me and said to me, “This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness and with whom righteousness dwells. And he will open all the hidden storerooms; for the Lord of the Spirits in eternal uprightness. This Son of Man whom you have seen is the One who would remove kings from their thrones. He shall loosen the reins of the strong and crush the teeth of the sinners. He will depose the kings from their thrones and kingdoms. For they do not extol and glorify him, and neither do they obey him, the source of their kingship. The faces of the strong will be slapped and be filled with shame and gloom. Their dwelling places and their beds will be worms. They will have no hope to rise from their beds, for they do not extol the name of the Lord of Spirits. And they have become the judges of the stars of heaven; they raise their hands to reach the Most High while walking upon the earth and dwelling in her. They manifest all their deeds in oppression; all their deeds are oppression. Their power depends upon their wealth. And their devotion is to the gods which they have fashioned with their own hands. But they deny the name of the Lord of Spirits. Ye they like to congregate in his houses and with the faithful ones who cling to the Lord of the Spirits.


48 Furthermore, in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness, which does not become depleted and is surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink and become filled with wisdom. Their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones. At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of Spirits, the Before-Time, even before the creation of the sun and moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. He will become a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles and he will become the hope of those who are sick in their hearts. All those who dwell upon the earth shall fall and worship before him, they will glorify, bless, and sing the name of the Lord of the Spirits. For this purpose he became the Chosen One; he was concealed in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits prior to the creation of the world, and for eternity. And he has revealed the wisdom of the Lord of the Spirits to the righteous and the holy ones, for he has preserved the portion of the righteous because they have hated and despised this world of oppression together with all its ways of life and its habits in his name and it is his good pleasure that they have life. In those days, the kings of the earth and the mighty landowners will be humiliated on account of the deeds of their hands. Therefore, on the day of their misery and weariness, they will not be able to save themselves. I shall deliver them into the hands of my elect ones like grass in the fire and like lead in the water, so shall they burn before the face of the holy ones and sink before their sight, an no place will be found for them. On the day of their weariness, there shall be an obstacle on the earth and they will fall on their faces; and they will not rise up again, nor anyone be found who will take them with his hands and raise them up. For they have denied the Lord of the Spirits and his Messiah. Blessed by the name of the Lord of the Spirits!

Notice how scornful Enoch is of the world governments. This is probably why it was left out of the Canonized Bible. After all, I'm sure Constantine did not appreciate being a world leader himself and faced with the prospect of being on the hit list in Enoch. Most people don't realize this but although Constantine embraced Christianity in making it the official religion of his kingdom, Constantine was not a Christian and continued to worship pagan gods. He even murdered members of his own family. It is rumored, though, that Constantine tried to convert on his death bed. So why did Constantine officially embrace the Christian faith even though he did not personally convert? He probably admired how the Christian faith spread despite being severely persecuted. It was almost as if the more Christians were persecuted the more the faith spread, so he adopted it as a tool of conquest.

It is interesting that Jesus is obviously referenced in Enoch by the verses below even though he is not mentioned by name. It's almost as if written before Jesus walked the earth.

Well, it seems that way for good reason: it was written before Jesus walked the Earth. Sections of Enoch 1, which is what Jude references, were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

• The Dead Sea Scrolls: Book of Giants
  
• Dead Sea Scrolls -- Enoch
  
• Scroll Spotlight - Biblical Archaeology Society

Unless Enoch is an anthology of sorts wherein writings of subsequent authors are continually added to it, starting at three-hundred something B.C. there's no way the books' author was alive some 300+ years later.

Which makes his blatant references to the "Son of Man" who is Jesus even more astounding!

 

[usmbguest5318]

Ashamed to say I never heard of such a book. I recognize the name, but...he had a book too? Which brings me to the question: why was it not included in the bible? So many gospels and books tossed to the wayside and not in there. So..why not?

Anyway..I googled and found this. Interesting.

Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

I have long been fascinated with the book of Enoch. To be clear, there is more than one book. All together there are 3, although, I think it evident that the first one is much, much older than the other 2 and written by a different author. The oldest transcripts date of Enoch 1 date back to the 15th century. However, Jude references Enoch in verse 14 and Jude was written between 70 to 90 AD.

Enoch 1 heavily influenced the early Christian culture and was used a great deal in their studies. Enoch is different than other pseudepigraphic writings because the Canonized Bible references it, which gives it credibility, and the fact it is so darn old. Enoch 1 was even found amongst the Dead Sea scrolls.

It is interesting that Jesus is obviously referenced in Enoch by the verses below even though he is not mentioned by name. It's almost as if written before Jesus walked the earth.

46 At that place, I saw the One in whom belongs the time before time. And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was foll of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one from among the angels who was going with me, and who had revealed to me all the secrets regarding the One who was born of human beings, “Who is this, and from whence is he who is going as the prototype of the Before Time?” And he answered me and said to me, “This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness and with whom righteousness dwells. And he will open all the hidden storerooms; for the Lord of the Spirits in eternal uprightness. This Son of Man whom you have seen is the One who would remove kings from their thrones. He shall loosen the reins of the strong and crush the teeth of the sinners. He will depose the kings from their thrones and kingdoms. For they do not extol and glorify him, and neither do they obey him, the source of their kingship. The faces of the strong will be slapped and be filled with shame and gloom. Their dwelling places and their beds will be worms. They will have no hope to rise from their beds, for they do not extol the name of the Lord of Spirits. And they have become the judges of the stars of heaven; they raise their hands to reach the Most High while walking upon the earth and dwelling in her. They manifest all their deeds in oppression; all their deeds are oppression. Their power depends upon their wealth. And their devotion is to the gods which they have fashioned with their own hands. But they deny the name of the Lord of Spirits. Ye they like to congregate in his houses and with the faithful ones who cling to the Lord of the Spirits.


48 Furthermore, in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness, which does not become depleted and is surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink and become filled with wisdom. Their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones. At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of Spirits, the Before-Time, even before the creation of the sun and moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. He will become a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles and he will become the hope of those who are sick in their hearts. All those who dwell upon the earth shall fall and worship before him, they will glorify, bless, and sing the name of the Lord of the Spirits. For this purpose he became the Chosen One; he was concealed in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits prior to the creation of the world, and for eternity. And he has revealed the wisdom of the Lord of the Spirits to the righteous and the holy ones, for he has preserved the portion of the righteous because they have hated and despised this world of oppression together with all its ways of life and its habits in his name and it is his good pleasure that they have life. In those days, the kings of the earth and the mighty landowners will be humiliated on account of the deeds of their hands. Therefore, on the day of their misery and weariness, they will not be able to save themselves. I shall deliver them into the hands of my elect ones like grass in the fire and like lead in the water, so shall they burn before the face of the holy ones and sink before their sight, an no place will be found for them. On the day of their weariness, there shall be an obstacle on the earth and they will fall on their faces; and they will not rise up again, nor anyone be found who will take them with his hands and raise them up. For they have denied the Lord of the Spirits and his Messiah. Blessed by the name of the Lord of the Spirits!

Notice how scornful Enoch is of the world governments. This is probably why it was left out of the Canonized Bible. After all, I'm sure Constantine did not appreciate being a world leader himself and faced with the prospect of being on the hit list in Enoch. Most people don't realize this but although Constantine embraced Christianity in making it the official religion of his kingdom, Constantine was not a Christian and continued to worship pagan gods. He even murdered members of his own family. It is rumored, though, that Constantine tried to convert on his death bed. So why did Constantine officially embrace the Christian faith even though he did not personally convert? He probably admired how the Christian faith spread despite being severely persecuted. It was almost as if the more Christians were persecuted the more the faith spread, so he adopted it as a tool of conquest.

It is interesting that Jesus is obviously referenced in Enoch by the verses below even though he is not mentioned by name. It's almost as if written before Jesus walked the earth.

Well, it seems that way for good reason: it was written before Jesus walked the Earth. Sections of Enoch 1, which is what Jude references, were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

• The Dead Sea Scrolls: Book of Giants
  
• Dead Sea Scrolls -- Enoch
  
• Scroll Spotlight - Biblical Archaeology Society

Unless Enoch is an anthology of sorts wherein writings of subsequent authors are continually added to it, starting at three-hundred something B.C. there's no way the books' author was alive some 300+ years later.

Which makes his blatant references to the "Son of Man" who is Jesus even more astounding!

I really haven't anything to say about that. I sought only to point out the basis of legitimacy for the content in Enoch seeming as though it was written before Jesus walked the Earth. I accomplished that objective.

 

[Votto]

A lot of the stuff in the bible is metaphoric, too.

Re Enoch, here is a page on why it isn't considered 'canon';not sure if thuis is what you're looking for, but in any case the book is still historically useful, as are some of the Apocrypha and other 'pseudo-books', like Pseudo-Barnabas and some others.

Why is the Book of Enoch not regarded as canonical?


What we don't know is when The Book of Enoch was written, who the author was, or what Jude was quoting. (The best I can tell, the Biblical figure Enoch was not the author, but rather, someone who lived closer to the time of Christ, or possibly even after, based on some of the references.) There are many arguments on all sides of this debate, but the real question in the back of many Christian minds is:

Is it Scripture?
Is this the Holy-Spirit inspired word of God? This is where we can pretty confidently say "no". If it were Scripture, we would expect it to be free of false doctrine. What we find instead is that false doctrine is one of the most prevalent themes in the book!

Taking a cursory look at the text up through Chapter 59, I found the following false doctrines. (I may be off on one here or there, but it should be sufficient to get my point across.)

• 
  
  
  • 1:1 Implies restoration during tribulation - not congruent with scriptures.
  • 1:8 In conflict with the doctrine that peace was made at the cross. Also, in the last days tribulation will increase for the righteous - this "verse" seems to dispute that.
  • 2:2-3 Appears to contradict 2 Pet 3:3-7
  • 5:4 Is an admonition to some unknown party - this is very irregular relative to the scriptures (i.e. authentic ancient writings by God-fearing Jews)
  • 6:3 Semjaza seems to be listed as the leader of the angels, which is not scriptural
  • 6:3,8 None of these angels are mentioned in the Bible
  • 8:1 Azazel isn't even listed in 6:8 as one of the angels that fornicated with women
  • 8:3 Araqiel and Shamsiel aren't listed in 6:8 either
  • 10:2 Enoch allegedly wrote about Noah, even though the Bible teaches that Enoch was taken up to heaven years before Noah was born.
  • 10:4-6,12 Implies angels can be bound & hid in holes under rocks. This is contrary to scripture.
  • 10:8 Ascribes all the sin of the fallen angels to one named Azazel - not scriptural.
  • 10:15-11:2 Seems to imply that permanent restoration took place after the flood - clearly not true. It seems the true author of this book confused scriptures pertaining to the future restoration.
  • 13:5-6,14:4-5,7 Implies fallen angels can't talk to God - this contradicts Job. Also implies that angels were repentant, but weren't received back by God - very strange doctrine.
  • 14 Gives a very strange description of Heaven that conflicts with many scriptures
  • 15:8-10 Very strange doctrine about "evil spirits" proceeding from unredeemable giants

... and so on.

The 'Comments' section is also good here.

Enoch is just a flat out bizarre figure in general. The Bible mentions nothing about him and just out of the blue we are introduced to him a matter of fact way and then told that he walked so close to God that God took him.

Wait.....wut? Where else do we see this? Nothing else is mentioned? In fact, Enoch never technically died.

This adds to the mystery. If Enoch never died, could he have written this himself?

Some of your points I could dispute but you seem to have made up your mind. I find your objections rather technical in nature. What is the spirit of anti-Christ? Is it not denying Jesus as Lord? Enoch points to Jesus as Lord, so much so, the early church was heavily influenced by Enoch.

 

[Votto]

Ashamed to say I never heard of such a book. I recognize the name, but...he had a book too? Which brings me to the question: why was it not included in the bible? So many gospels and books tossed to the wayside and not in there. So..why not?

Anyway..I googled and found this. Interesting.

Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

I have long been fascinated with the book of Enoch. To be clear, there is more than one book. All together there are 3, although, I think it evident that the first one is much, much older than the other 2 and written by a different author. The oldest transcripts date of Enoch 1 date back to the 15th century. However, Jude references Enoch in verse 14 and Jude was written between 70 to 90 AD.

Enoch 1 heavily influenced the early Christian culture and was used a great deal in their studies. Enoch is different than other pseudepigraphic writings because the Canonized Bible references it, which gives it credibility, and the fact it is so darn old. Enoch 1 was even found amongst the Dead Sea scrolls.

It is interesting that Jesus is obviously referenced in Enoch by the verses below even though he is not mentioned by name. It's almost as if written before Jesus walked the earth.

46 At that place, I saw the One in whom belongs the time before time. And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was foll of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one from among the angels who was going with me, and who had revealed to me all the secrets regarding the One who was born of human beings, “Who is this, and from whence is he who is going as the prototype of the Before Time?” And he answered me and said to me, “This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness and with whom righteousness dwells. And he will open all the hidden storerooms; for the Lord of the Spirits in eternal uprightness. This Son of Man whom you have seen is the One who would remove kings from their thrones. He shall loosen the reins of the strong and crush the teeth of the sinners. He will depose the kings from their thrones and kingdoms. For they do not extol and glorify him, and neither do they obey him, the source of their kingship. The faces of the strong will be slapped and be filled with shame and gloom. Their dwelling places and their beds will be worms. They will have no hope to rise from their beds, for they do not extol the name of the Lord of Spirits. And they have become the judges of the stars of heaven; they raise their hands to reach the Most High while walking upon the earth and dwelling in her. They manifest all their deeds in oppression; all their deeds are oppression. Their power depends upon their wealth. And their devotion is to the gods which they have fashioned with their own hands. But they deny the name of the Lord of Spirits. Ye they like to congregate in his houses and with the faithful ones who cling to the Lord of the Spirits.


48 Furthermore, in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness, which does not become depleted and is surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink and become filled with wisdom. Their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones. At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of Spirits, the Before-Time, even before the creation of the sun and moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. He will become a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles and he will become the hope of those who are sick in their hearts. All those who dwell upon the earth shall fall and worship before him, they will glorify, bless, and sing the name of the Lord of the Spirits. For this purpose he became the Chosen One; he was concealed in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits prior to the creation of the world, and for eternity. And he has revealed the wisdom of the Lord of the Spirits to the righteous and the holy ones, for he has preserved the portion of the righteous because they have hated and despised this world of oppression together with all its ways of life and its habits in his name and it is his good pleasure that they have life. In those days, the kings of the earth and the mighty landowners will be humiliated on account of the deeds of their hands. Therefore, on the day of their misery and weariness, they will not be able to save themselves. I shall deliver them into the hands of my elect ones like grass in the fire and like lead in the water, so shall they burn before the face of the holy ones and sink before their sight, an no place will be found for them. On the day of their weariness, there shall be an obstacle on the earth and they will fall on their faces; and they will not rise up again, nor anyone be found who will take them with his hands and raise them up. For they have denied the Lord of the Spirits and his Messiah. Blessed by the name of the Lord of the Spirits!

Notice how scornful Enoch is of the world governments. This is probably why it was left out of the Canonized Bible. After all, I'm sure Constantine did not appreciate being a world leader himself and faced with the prospect of being on the hit list in Enoch. Most people don't realize this but although Constantine embraced Christianity in making it the official religion of his kingdom, Constantine was not a Christian and continued to worship pagan gods. He even murdered members of his own family. It is rumored, though, that Constantine tried to convert on his death bed. So why did Constantine officially embrace the Christian faith even though he did not personally convert? He probably admired how the Christian faith spread despite being severely persecuted. It was almost as if the more Christians were persecuted the more the faith spread, so he adopted it as a tool of conquest.

It is interesting that Jesus is obviously referenced in Enoch by the verses below even though he is not mentioned by name. It's almost as if written before Jesus walked the earth.

Well, it seems that way for good reason: it was written before Jesus walked the Earth. Sections of Enoch 1, which is what Jude references, were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

• The Dead Sea Scrolls: Book of Giants
  
• Dead Sea Scrolls -- Enoch
  
• Scroll Spotlight - Biblical Archaeology Society

Unless Enoch is an anthology of sorts wherein writings of subsequent authors are continually added to it, starting at three-hundred something B.C. there's no way the books' author was alive some 300+ years later.

Which makes his blatant references to the "Son of Man" who is Jesus even more astounding!

I really haven't anything to say about that. I sought only to point out the basis of legitimacy for the content in Enoch seeming as though it was written before Jesus walked the Earth. I accomplished that objective.

So here we have a prophetic book talking about the coming Messiah Jesus and you have nothing to say about it?

 

[MarkDuffy]

Ashamed to say I never heard of such a book. I recognize the name, but...he had a book too? Which brings me to the question: why was it not included in the bible? So many gospels and books tossed to the wayside and not in there. So..why not?

Anyway..I googled and found this. Interesting.

Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

Which gospels made it into the Bible were political decisions. How to define Christianity. How to hold the various myths together to create a semi-consistent narrative. Which myths were popular and would market the religion to the ignorant masses.

 

[RodISHI]

A lot of the stuff in the bible is metaphoric, too.

Re Enoch, here is a page on why it isn't considered 'canon';not sure if thuis is what you're looking for, but in any case the book is still historically useful, as are some of the Apocrypha and other 'pseudo-books', like Pseudo-Barnabas and some others.

Why is the Book of Enoch not regarded as canonical?


What we don't know is when The Book of Enoch was written, who the author was, or what Jude was quoting. (The best I can tell, the Biblical figure Enoch was not the author, but rather, someone who lived closer to the time of Christ, or possibly even after, based on some of the references.) There are many arguments on all sides of this debate, but the real question in the back of many Christian minds is:

Is it Scripture?
Is this the Holy-Spirit inspired word of God? This is where we can pretty confidently say "no". If it were Scripture, we would expect it to be free of false doctrine. What we find instead is that false doctrine is one of the most prevalent themes in the book!

Taking a cursory look at the text up through Chapter 59, I found the following false doctrines. (I may be off on one here or there, but it should be sufficient to get my point across.)

• 
  
  
  • 1:1 Implies restoration during tribulation - not congruent with scriptures.
  • 1:8 In conflict with the doctrine that peace was made at the cross. Also, in the last days tribulation will increase for the righteous - this "verse" seems to dispute that.
  • 2:2-3 Appears to contradict 2 Pet 3:3-7
  • 5:4 Is an admonition to some unknown party - this is very irregular relative to the scriptures (i.e. authentic ancient writings by God-fearing Jews)
  • 6:3 Semjaza seems to be listed as the leader of the angels, which is not scriptural
  • 6:3,8 None of these angels are mentioned in the Bible
  • 8:1 Azazel isn't even listed in 6:8 as one of the angels that fornicated with women
  • 8:3 Araqiel and Shamsiel aren't listed in 6:8 either
  • 10:2 Enoch allegedly wrote about Noah, even though the Bible teaches that Enoch was taken up to heaven years before Noah was born.
  • 10:4-6,12 Implies angels can be bound & hid in holes under rocks. This is contrary to scripture.
  • 10:8 Ascribes all the sin of the fallen angels to one named Azazel - not scriptural.
  • 10:15-11:2 Seems to imply that permanent restoration took place after the flood - clearly not true. It seems the true author of this book confused scriptures pertaining to the future restoration.
  • 13:5-6,14:4-5,7 Implies fallen angels can't talk to God - this contradicts Job. Also implies that angels were repentant, but weren't received back by God - very strange doctrine.
  • 14 Gives a very strange description of Heaven that conflicts with many scriptures
  • 15:8-10 Very strange doctrine about "evil spirits" proceeding from unredeemable giants

... and so on.

The 'Comments' section is also good here.

Enoch is just a flat out bizarre figure in general. The Bible mentions nothing about him and just out of the blue we are introduced to him a matter of fact way and then told that he walked so close to God that God took him.

Wait.....wut? Where else do we see this? Nothing else is mentioned? In fact, Enoch never technically died.

This adds to the mystery. If Enoch never died, could he have written this himself?

Some of your points I could dispute but you seem to have made up your mind. I find your objections rather technical in nature. What is the spirit of anti-Christ? Is it not denying Jesus as Lord? Enoch points to Jesus as Lord, so much so, the early church was heavily influenced by Enoch.

Enoch from the Hebrew name חֲנוֹך (Chanokh) meaning "dedicated".

 

[usmbguest5318]

Ashamed to say I never heard of such a book. I recognize the name, but...he had a book too? Which brings me to the question: why was it not included in the bible? So many gospels and books tossed to the wayside and not in there. So..why not?

Anyway..I googled and found this. Interesting.

Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

I have long been fascinated with the book of Enoch. To be clear, there is more than one book. All together there are 3, although, I think it evident that the first one is much, much older than the other 2 and written by a different author. The oldest transcripts date of Enoch 1 date back to the 15th century. However, Jude references Enoch in verse 14 and Jude was written between 70 to 90 AD.

Enoch 1 heavily influenced the early Christian culture and was used a great deal in their studies. Enoch is different than other pseudepigraphic writings because the Canonized Bible references it, which gives it credibility, and the fact it is so darn old. Enoch 1 was even found amongst the Dead Sea scrolls.

It is interesting that Jesus is obviously referenced in Enoch by the verses below even though he is not mentioned by name. It's almost as if written before Jesus walked the earth.

46 At that place, I saw the One in whom belongs the time before time. And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was foll of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one from among the angels who was going with me, and who had revealed to me all the secrets regarding the One who was born of human beings, “Who is this, and from whence is he who is going as the prototype of the Before Time?” And he answered me and said to me, “This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness and with whom righteousness dwells. And he will open all the hidden storerooms; for the Lord of the Spirits in eternal uprightness. This Son of Man whom you have seen is the One who would remove kings from their thrones. He shall loosen the reins of the strong and crush the teeth of the sinners. He will depose the kings from their thrones and kingdoms. For they do not extol and glorify him, and neither do they obey him, the source of their kingship. The faces of the strong will be slapped and be filled with shame and gloom. Their dwelling places and their beds will be worms. They will have no hope to rise from their beds, for they do not extol the name of the Lord of Spirits. And they have become the judges of the stars of heaven; they raise their hands to reach the Most High while walking upon the earth and dwelling in her. They manifest all their deeds in oppression; all their deeds are oppression. Their power depends upon their wealth. And their devotion is to the gods which they have fashioned with their own hands. But they deny the name of the Lord of Spirits. Ye they like to congregate in his houses and with the faithful ones who cling to the Lord of the Spirits.


48 Furthermore, in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness, which does not become depleted and is surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink and become filled with wisdom. Their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones. At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of Spirits, the Before-Time, even before the creation of the sun and moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. He will become a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles and he will become the hope of those who are sick in their hearts. All those who dwell upon the earth shall fall and worship before him, they will glorify, bless, and sing the name of the Lord of the Spirits. For this purpose he became the Chosen One; he was concealed in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits prior to the creation of the world, and for eternity. And he has revealed the wisdom of the Lord of the Spirits to the righteous and the holy ones, for he has preserved the portion of the righteous because they have hated and despised this world of oppression together with all its ways of life and its habits in his name and it is his good pleasure that they have life. In those days, the kings of the earth and the mighty landowners will be humiliated on account of the deeds of their hands. Therefore, on the day of their misery and weariness, they will not be able to save themselves. I shall deliver them into the hands of my elect ones like grass in the fire and like lead in the water, so shall they burn before the face of the holy ones and sink before their sight, an no place will be found for them. On the day of their weariness, there shall be an obstacle on the earth and they will fall on their faces; and they will not rise up again, nor anyone be found who will take them with his hands and raise them up. For they have denied the Lord of the Spirits and his Messiah. Blessed by the name of the Lord of the Spirits!

Notice how scornful Enoch is of the world governments. This is probably why it was left out of the Canonized Bible. After all, I'm sure Constantine did not appreciate being a world leader himself and faced with the prospect of being on the hit list in Enoch. Most people don't realize this but although Constantine embraced Christianity in making it the official religion of his kingdom, Constantine was not a Christian and continued to worship pagan gods. He even murdered members of his own family. It is rumored, though, that Constantine tried to convert on his death bed. So why did Constantine officially embrace the Christian faith even though he did not personally convert? He probably admired how the Christian faith spread despite being severely persecuted. It was almost as if the more Christians were persecuted the more the faith spread, so he adopted it as a tool of conquest.

It is interesting that Jesus is obviously referenced in Enoch by the verses below even though he is not mentioned by name. It's almost as if written before Jesus walked the earth.

Well, it seems that way for good reason: it was written before Jesus walked the Earth. Sections of Enoch 1, which is what Jude references, were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

• The Dead Sea Scrolls: Book of Giants
  
• Dead Sea Scrolls -- Enoch
  
• Scroll Spotlight - Biblical Archaeology Society

Unless Enoch is an anthology of sorts wherein writings of subsequent authors are continually added to it, starting at three-hundred something B.C. there's no way the books' author was alive some 300+ years later.

Which makes his blatant references to the "Son of Man" who is Jesus even more astounding!

I really haven't anything to say about that. I sought only to point out the basis of legitimacy for the content in Enoch seeming as though it was written before Jesus walked the Earth. I accomplished that objective.

So here we have a prophetic book talking about the coming Messiah Jesus and you have nothing to say about it?

That is correct.

 

[Picaro]

Ashamed to say I never heard of such a book. I recognize the name, but...he had a book too? Which brings me to the question: why was it not included in the bible? So many gospels and books tossed to the wayside and not in there. So..why not?

Anyway..I googled and found this. Interesting.

Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

Which gospels made it into the Bible were political decisions. How to define Christianity. How to hold the various myths together to create a semi-consistent narrative. Which myths were popular and would market the religion to the ignorant masses.

Rubbish.

 

[RWNJ]

Ashamed to say I never heard of such a book. I recognize the name, but...he had a book too? Which brings me to the question: why was it not included in the bible? So many gospels and books tossed to the wayside and not in there. So..why not?

Anyway..I googled and found this. Interesting.

Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

Which gospels made it into the Bible were political decisions. How to define Christianity. How to hold the various myths together to create a semi-consistent narrative. Which myths were popular and would market the religion to the ignorant masses.

Rubbish.

Agree.

 

[Picaro]

A lot of the stuff in the bible is metaphoric, too.

Re Enoch, here is a page on why it isn't considered 'canon';not sure if thuis is what you're looking for, but in any case the book is still historically useful, as are some of the Apocrypha and other 'pseudo-books', like Pseudo-Barnabas and some others.

Why is the Book of Enoch not regarded as canonical?


What we don't know is when The Book of Enoch was written, who the author was, or what Jude was quoting. (The best I can tell, the Biblical figure Enoch was not the author, but rather, someone who lived closer to the time of Christ, or possibly even after, based on some of the references.) There are many arguments on all sides of this debate, but the real question in the back of many Christian minds is:

Is it Scripture?
Is this the Holy-Spirit inspired word of God? This is where we can pretty confidently say "no". If it were Scripture, we would expect it to be free of false doctrine. What we find instead is that false doctrine is one of the most prevalent themes in the book!

Taking a cursory look at the text up through Chapter 59, I found the following false doctrines. (I may be off on one here or there, but it should be sufficient to get my point across.)

• 
  
  
  • 1:1 Implies restoration during tribulation - not congruent with scriptures.
  • 1:8 In conflict with the doctrine that peace was made at the cross. Also, in the last days tribulation will increase for the righteous - this "verse" seems to dispute that.
  • 2:2-3 Appears to contradict 2 Pet 3:3-7
  • 5:4 Is an admonition to some unknown party - this is very irregular relative to the scriptures (i.e. authentic ancient writings by God-fearing Jews)
  • 6:3 Semjaza seems to be listed as the leader of the angels, which is not scriptural
  • 6:3,8 None of these angels are mentioned in the Bible
  • 8:1 Azazel isn't even listed in 6:8 as one of the angels that fornicated with women
  • 8:3 Araqiel and Shamsiel aren't listed in 6:8 either
  • 10:2 Enoch allegedly wrote about Noah, even though the Bible teaches that Enoch was taken up to heaven years before Noah was born.
  • 10:4-6,12 Implies angels can be bound & hid in holes under rocks. This is contrary to scripture.
  • 10:8 Ascribes all the sin of the fallen angels to one named Azazel - not scriptural.
  • 10:15-11:2 Seems to imply that permanent restoration took place after the flood - clearly not true. It seems the true author of this book confused scriptures pertaining to the future restoration.
  • 13:5-6,14:4-5,7 Implies fallen angels can't talk to God - this contradicts Job. Also implies that angels were repentant, but weren't received back by God - very strange doctrine.
  • 14 Gives a very strange description of Heaven that conflicts with many scriptures
  • 15:8-10 Very strange doctrine about "evil spirits" proceeding from unredeemable giants

... and so on.

The 'Comments' section is also good here.

Enoch is just a flat out bizarre figure in general. The Bible mentions nothing about him and just out of the blue we are introduced to him a matter of fact way and then told that he walked so close to God that God took him.

Wait.....wut? Where else do we see this? Nothing else is mentioned? In fact, Enoch never technically died.

This adds to the mystery. If Enoch never died, could he have written this himself?

Some of your points I could dispute but you seem to have made up your mind. I find your objections rather technical in nature. What is the spirit of anti-Christ? Is it not denying Jesus as Lord? Enoch points to Jesus as Lord, so much so, the early church was heavily influenced by Enoch.

I'm posting on why it isn't 'canonical'; textual and theological forensics is a perfectly valid technique, and used by Bible scholars and pastor all the time. It's the best way to keep errors out and in fact aids in keeping false doctrines from misleading people.