Blacklisted by History: The Untold Story of Senator Joe McCarthy -- M Stanton Evans

[PoliticalChic]

Communists in the US Government... handed China to Mao

That makes me question the whole book right there.

That one line exposes your total ignorance of the times and the forces at work. Needless to say, that doesn't prevent you from having strong opinions on the matter...

Read and learn:

Although born in the U.S., [Owen]Lattimore was raised in Tianjin, China, where his parents, David and Margaret Lattimore, were teachers of English at a Chinese university.

Owen Lattimore (July 29, 1900 – May 31, 1989) was an American author, educator, and influential scholar of Central Asia, especially Mongolia. In the 1930s he was editor of Pacific Affairs, a journal published by the Institute of Pacific Relations, and then taught at Johns Hopkins University from 1938 to 1963. During World War II he was advisor to Chiang Kai-shek and the American government and contributed extensively to the public debate.

Following the German invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941, President Franklin D. Roosevelt appointed Lattimore U.S. advisor to Chinese Nationalist leader Chiang Kai-shek. In 1944, Lattimore was placed in charge of the Pacific area for the Office of War Information.[5] At President Roosevelt's request, he accompanied US Vice-President Henry Wallace on a mission to Siberia and to China and Mongolia in 1944, for the US Office of War Information.[6] The trip had been arranged by Lauchlin Currie, who recommended to FDR that Lattimore accompany Wallace.[7]

Alfred Kohlberg,...accused Lattimore of being hostile to Chiang and too sympathetic towards Chinese Communists.

Owen Lattimore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lattimore was found to be a “conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy” by a unanimous Senate committee (William F. Buckley and Brent Bozell, McCarty and His Enemies, p. 274, quoting the Congressional Record)

The ever-intrepid Evans (M. Stanton Evans, author of Blacklisted by History: The Untold Story of Senator Joe McCarthy and his fight Against America's Enemies,) has produced a memo from Lou Nichols of the FBI saying he couldn't understand what had come over Tydings — that the Maryland Democrat knew very well that Director Hoover had said that if he had been on the Loyalty Board, he would have questioned any attempt to clear Lattimore, and that he regarded the IPR icon as a security risk and would never have hired him at the Bureau.
• Lattimore had conferred (during the Hitler-Stalin pact) with the Soviet ambassador about Lattimore's upcoming assignment as President Roosevelt's adviser to Chiang-Kai-Shek — then trying to fend off the Communist revolution in his country.
• Credible testimony revealed "five episodes" wherein Lattimore — within the Politburo of the Communist Party — "participated as a full participant in the conspiracy."
• A former brigadier-general in the Soviet military intelligence testified to having been told that "Lattimore was one of our men."
• On page 218 of the McCarran committee's voluminous report of its year-long investigation, this bottom line: "[T]he subcommittee can come to no other conclusion but that Lattimore was for some time beginning in the 1930s a conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy."
The documented truth about the McCarthy investigations

Owen Lattimore, the most famous of McCarthy's "victims," has finally come out, thanks to a former Chinese espionage agent's memoirs and declassified FBI files, which go a long way to vindicate McCarthy's original charges. In retrospect, the cause McCarthy made his own — anticommunism — has proved to be more valid and durable than the basic assumptions of his anti-anti-Communist critics.
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/herman-mccarthy.html

We now know that Mao Tse-tung was not a progressive nationalist forced into the Soviet camp by American hostility and incomprehension, as revisionist scholars in the seventies like to pretend, but was a brutal and dedicated Communist who enthusiastically embraced Stalin from the beginning. Historians J. E. Haynes, Harvey Klehr, Ronald Radosh, Allan Weinstein, and Alexander Vassiliev have used new declassified American materials as well as Soviet sources to lay to rest any doubts about the Soviet Union's espionage activities, as well as the Communist Party's active support of it.

Men like Lattimore were counted on for advice, and in perfect positions to see that Communist designs were carried out.

[Harry Dexter] White engineered the Treasury's fatal delay in providing a promised loan to support the currency of Nationalist China, then in its epochal struggle with the Chinese Communists. As Morgan remarks, "Failure to receive the loan in time was only part of the cause of Chiang Kai-shek's downfall, but it counted." (Who lost China?)
The Claremont Institute - A Closer Look Under The Bed

 

[American Horse]

Communists in the US Government... handed China to Mao

That makes me question the whole book right there.

Soviet agents in the U.S. State department (and Treasury) worked actively to damage confidence of our government, in the (Nationalist) Chinese fighting in their own country, as our allies against the Japanese, and in favor of the Communist unsurgency of Mao Tse-Tung and Chou En-Lai.
While Chiang Kai-Shek was busy as our ally fighting the Japanese, White, Currie, Coe, Glasser, and Hiss were doing all they could to undermine him in favor of Mao and the communists:

From the book, "Blacklisted. . . "

“Less visible at the time, but equally crucial for the fate of China, were manipulations on the Treasury side of things, where concerted efforts were under way to enforce the policy of financial strangulation Adler had set forth to White. Records of this anti-Chiang campaign including cables, memos, and transcripts of meetings, reveal an astounding case of players -- [Harry Dexter] White, Lauchlin Currie, V. Frank Coe, Harold Glasser, and Alger hiss among them. And, when in the United States, Sol Adler would sit in as well. The operative principle seemed to be that at least two secret Moscow agents had to be in the room -- and sometimes more than two -- for the meetings to be official. The comrades must have been bumping into each other in the Treasury hallways as they made their way to these important sessions.

Especially notable were scenes in late 1944 and early ’45, bracketing the Adler memo to White on cutting off the flow of funds to Chiang. In these conclaves, Morgenthau kept asking his staff about the gold loan promised to KMT finance minister Kung. The Secretary was being badgered by Kung and was asking his advisers why the gold was not delivered. They patiently explained that there were technical issues, shipping problems, glitches: and anyway, the gold would be wasted on the corrupt regime of Chiang. An extremely candid version of the matter would be supplied by White, who admitted in so many words that the loan had been deliberately obstructed. After his amazingly frank discussion of the gold loan record, White still undertook to persuade Morgenthau that the Treasury had been right in its obstructionism, “because the money is being badly used.” Others from time to time would discuss the issue with Morgenthau in similar fashion, suggesting that the gold be withheld or doled out in driblets. Among those arguing this were Adler, on one of his excursions back to D.C., and V. Frank Coe -- who would later join with Adler in fleeing to Red China. All three of the Morgenthau advisers plying him with this counsel would show up in FBI records, congressional hearings, and Venona papers as Soviet agents.

On the Merits of what John Service did, as noted much has been said down through the years to suggest he was merely “reporting” what he saw and couldn’t be blamed for having done so. It’s note-worthy, however, that what Service allegedly saw wasn’t seen by other observers who knew far more about the relevant matters than did he. This was particularly true of his (and Adler’s) repeated statements that only the Chinese Communists were fighting the Japanese, while Chiang Kai-Shek did nothing.

General Albert Wedemeyer, a true military expert in charge of the war against Japan in China for many months, would flatly contradict these Service-Adler statements. According to Wedemeyer, the Chinese Reds did little fighting against the Japanese and were no help to him in the conduct of the struggle. “No Communist Chinese forces,” said Wedemeyer, “fought in any major battles of the Sino-Japanese war. . . ” From intelligence data he was receiving, he said, “I knew that Mao Tse-Tung, Chou En-Lai and the other Chinese Communists leaders were not interested in fighting the Japanese because their main concern was to occupy the territory which the Nationalist forces evacuated in their retreat.

In fact, as shown by historians familiar with the Chinese-language Communists sources, the truth of the matter went well beyond this. In his study of the OSS in China during World War II, Naval Academy historian Maochun Yu observes that tales of the Communists’ “valiant fighting” (his quote marks) masked a policy of outright collaboration between Yenan and the Japanese invaders. He recounts one episode in which a U.S. reconnaissance team parachuted into northern China only to find the Communists and Japanese camped out a few miles apart and peacefully coexisting; another in which a Japanese puppet ruler was selling arms to the Yenan Reds for use against Chiang’s army.”


Click on the below link to read from Blacklisted by History, particulary pages 99 through 109:

Chapter 8: Chunking, 1944

 

[Cecilie1200]

Everything I've read or heard from those who were involved with the HUAC hearings leads me to think that McCarthy was a nasty, hateful, lying, power-hungry drunk.

That leads me to want to read what this apologist for McCarthy has to say.

I owe no alligance to anything but the pursuit of the truth.

Even if the truth I find conflicts with what I previously thought was the truth.

If you've been reading anything that led you to believe McCarthy had shit to do with the HUAC, then the writer was a big, fat, stinking liar and you should take your "pursuit of the truth" to his house and beat him senseless.

 

[Bfgrn]

“I didn’t much care for Joseph McCarthy’s ends, but I always admired his methods.”
M. Stanton Evans

"I never liked Nixon until Watergate."
M. Stanton Evans


Whenever a separation is made between liberty and justice, neither, in my opinion, is safe.
Edmund Burke

Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is the best -- Frank Zappa

Hey Frank, you need to heed Zappa's advice.

The depth and scope of your ignorance is beyond comprehension. Joe McCarthy is the ultimate poster boy for Statism. And you are a blind, ignorant devout Statist Frank. McCarthyism is THE prime example in the 20th century that even in America a few devious authoritarians can turn the US government into a Stalin-like machine that destroys the lives of innocent people. It is EXACTLY over-intrusive government. It is violation of personal privacy, guilt by association and innuendo. It totally trashes every freedom we boast about as a free and open society.

Frank, you are not only a Statist; you, McCarthy and M Stanton Evans would fit perfectly in Stalin's Politburo, until YOU came under suspicion and vanished.

The Commissar Vanishes
I have this pretty incredible book that involves some of the earliest 'photo manipulation'. It's called 'The Commissar Vanishes, and it's a collection of photos dated back to Stalin's purges of the 1930's and 40's.

Basically, if you were a member of the Soviet Politburo, and you were on the 'outs' with Stalin (probably headed to the Gulag or executed) your image in a photo would be erased along with any memory of you. It was the ultimate form of damage control.

 

[uscitizen]

The best, absolute best and a must have book regarding one of the most successful Communist plots ever devised and executed.

You know the fictional narrative: Joe McCarthy was a drunk, power-hungry liar who used his House UnAmerican Activities Committee (Yeah, why did we even have a HUAC BEFORE Joe was elected?) to destroy so many poor innocents including Zero Mostel.

The truth? You'll want to beat the shit out of ever history teacher you ever had for lying to your face.

Communists in the US Government (oh, we were and are swamped with them!) covered for Stalin's mass execution of Polish officers at Katyn Forest, handed Yugoslavia to Communist Tito and handed China to Mao....and that only 90 pages in!

Don't let Progressive lies go unchecked! Educate Yourself!

We had a HUAC because we had a Communist problem starting with the New Deal and even Democrats cared (before their Party became a wholly owned subsidiary of Moscow)

Buy this book! Own it! Refer to it frequently!

Frank you do realize that a book does not care what anyone prints on it's pages don't ya?

 

[Cecilie1200]

“I didn’t much care for Joseph McCarthy’s ends, but I always admired his methods.”
M. Stanton Evans

"I never liked Nixon until Watergate."
M. Stanton Evans


Whenever a separation is made between liberty and justice, neither, in my opinion, is safe.
Edmund Burke

Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is the best -- Frank Zappa

Hey Frank, you need to heed Zappa's advice.

The depth and scope of your ignorance is beyond comprehension. Joe McCarthy is the ultimate poster boy for Statism. And you are a blind, ignorant devout Statist Frank. McCarthyism is THE prime example in the 20th century that even in America a few devious authoritarians can turn the US government into a Stalin-like machine that destroys the lives of innocent people. It is EXACTLY over-intrusive government. It is violation of personal privacy, guilt by association and innuendo. It totally trashes every freedom we boast about as a free and open society.

Frank, you are not only a Statist; you, McCarthy and M Stanton Evans would fit perfectly in Stalin's Politburo, until YOU came under suspicion and vanished.

The Commissar Vanishes
I have this pretty incredible book that involves some of the earliest 'photo manipulation'. It's called 'The Commissar Vanishes, and it's a collection of photos dated back to Stalin's purges of the 1930's and 40's.

Basically, if you were a member of the Soviet Politburo, and you were on the 'outs' with Stalin (probably headed to the Gulag or executed) your image in a photo would be erased along with any memory of you. It was the ultimate form of damage control.

I'm looking for the meaningful, substantive content in this post, and I'm just not seeing it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The best, absolute best and a must have book regarding one of the most successful Communist plots ever devised and executed.

You know the fictional narrative: Joe McCarthy was a drunk, power-hungry liar who used his House UnAmerican Activities Committee (Yeah, why did we even have a HUAC BEFORE Joe was elected?) to destroy so many poor innocents including Zero Mostel.

The truth? You'll want to beat the shit out of ever history teacher you ever had for lying to your face.

Communists in the US Government (oh, we were and are swamped with them!) covered for Stalin's mass execution of Polish officers at Katyn Forest, handed Yugoslavia to Communist Tito and handed China to Mao....and that only 90 pages in!

Don't let Progressive lies go unchecked! Educate Yourself!

We had a HUAC because we had a Communist problem starting with the New Deal and even Democrats cared (before their Party became a wholly owned subsidiary of Moscow)

Buy this book! Own it! Refer to it frequently!

Frank you do realize that a book does not care what anyone prints on it's pages don't ya?

Congratulations! You've succeeded in having even less content in YOUR post than Bfgrn had in his. I wouldn't have thought that possible without a revision of physics laws, but you did it!

 

[Bfgrn]

Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is the best -- Frank Zappa

Hey Frank, you need to heed Zappa's advice.

The depth and scope of your ignorance is beyond comprehension. Joe McCarthy is the ultimate poster boy for Statism. And you are a blind, ignorant devout Statist Frank. McCarthyism is THE prime example in the 20th century that even in America a few devious authoritarians can turn the US government into a Stalin-like machine that destroys the lives of innocent people. It is EXACTLY over-intrusive government. It is violation of personal privacy, guilt by association and innuendo. It totally trashes every freedom we boast about as a free and open society.

Frank, you are not only a Statist; you, McCarthy and M Stanton Evans would fit perfectly in Stalin's Politburo, until YOU came under suspicion and vanished.

The Commissar Vanishes
I have this pretty incredible book that involves some of the earliest 'photo manipulation'. It's called 'The Commissar Vanishes, and it's a collection of photos dated back to Stalin's purges of the 1930's and 40's.

Basically, if you were a member of the Soviet Politburo, and you were on the 'outs' with Stalin (probably headed to the Gulag or executed) your image in a photo would be erased along with any memory of you. It was the ultimate form of damage control.

I'm looking for the meaningful, substantive content in this post, and I'm just not seeing it.

Have your mommy explain it

 

[Cecilie1200]

Hey Frank, you need to heed Zappa's advice.

The depth and scope of your ignorance is beyond comprehension. Joe McCarthy is the ultimate poster boy for Statism. And you are a blind, ignorant devout Statist Frank. McCarthyism is THE prime example in the 20th century that even in America a few devious authoritarians can turn the US government into a Stalin-like machine that destroys the lives of innocent people. It is EXACTLY over-intrusive government. It is violation of personal privacy, guilt by association and innuendo. It totally trashes every freedom we boast about as a free and open society.

Frank, you are not only a Statist; you, McCarthy and M Stanton Evans would fit perfectly in Stalin's Politburo, until YOU came under suspicion and vanished.

The Commissar Vanishes
I have this pretty incredible book that involves some of the earliest 'photo manipulation'. It's called 'The Commissar Vanishes, and it's a collection of photos dated back to Stalin's purges of the 1930's and 40's.

Basically, if you were a member of the Soviet Politburo, and you were on the 'outs' with Stalin (probably headed to the Gulag or executed) your image in a photo would be erased along with any memory of you. It was the ultimate form of damage control.

I'm looking for the meaningful, substantive content in this post, and I'm just not seeing it.

Have your mommy explain it

She says you're full of shit, and very resentful of that fact.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

“I didn’t much care for Joseph McCarthy’s ends, but I always admired his methods.”
M. Stanton Evans

"I never liked Nixon until Watergate."
M. Stanton Evans


Whenever a separation is made between liberty and justice, neither, in my opinion, is safe.
Edmund Burke

Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is the best -- Frank Zappa

Hey Frank, you need to heed Zappa's advice.

The depth and scope of your ignorance is beyond comprehension. Joe McCarthy is the ultimate poster boy for Statism. And you are a blind, ignorant devout Statist Frank. McCarthyism is THE prime example in the 20th century that even in America a few devious authoritarians can turn the US government into a Stalin-like machine that destroys the lives of innocent people. It is EXACTLY over-intrusive government. It is violation of personal privacy, guilt by association and innuendo. It totally trashes every freedom we boast about as a free and open society.

Frank, you are not only a Statist; you, McCarthy and M Stanton Evans would fit perfectly in Stalin's Politburo, until YOU came under suspicion and vanished.

The Commissar Vanishes
I have this pretty incredible book that involves some of the earliest 'photo manipulation'. It's called 'The Commissar Vanishes, and it's a collection of photos dated back to Stalin's purges of the 1930's and 40's.

Basically, if you were a member of the Soviet Politburo, and you were on the 'outs' with Stalin (probably headed to the Gulag or executed) your image in a photo would be erased along with any memory of you. It was the ultimate form of damage control.

Your Goebbels Big Lie Machine is destroyed.

When Progressives ran the media, you used to be able to tell lies like that and get away with it, but those days are done.

You are now on record supporting the efforts of Communist spies throughout our government even after their identity as such has been verified by Moscow.

I posted 10 names of people McCarthy named as Communist spies, people who shifted US policy toward Progressive heroes Stalin and Mao, histories 2 greatest Mass Murderers.

You cannot name a single "Innocent person" whose life was ruined by McCarthy. Not one!

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The best, absolute best and a must have book regarding one of the most successful Communist plots ever devised and executed.

You know the fictional narrative: Joe McCarthy was a drunk, power-hungry liar who used his House UnAmerican Activities Committee (Yeah, why did we even have a HUAC BEFORE Joe was elected?) to destroy so many poor innocents including Zero Mostel.

The truth? You'll want to beat the shit out of ever history teacher you ever had for lying to your face.

Communists in the US Government (oh, we were and are swamped with them!) covered for Stalin's mass execution of Polish officers at Katyn Forest, handed Yugoslavia to Communist Tito and handed China to Mao....and that only 90 pages in!

Don't let Progressive lies go unchecked! Educate Yourself!

We had a HUAC because we had a Communist problem starting with the New Deal and even Democrats cared (before their Party became a wholly owned subsidiary of Moscow)

Buy this book! Own it! Refer to it frequently!

Frank you do realize that a book does not care what anyone prints on it's pages don't ya?

That's it? That's what took a whole week?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is the best -- Frank Zappa

Hey Frank, you need to heed Zappa's advice.

The depth and scope of your ignorance is beyond comprehension. Joe McCarthy is the ultimate poster boy for Statism. And you are a blind, ignorant devout Statist Frank. McCarthyism is THE prime example in the 20th century that even in America a few devious authoritarians can turn the US government into a Stalin-like machine that destroys the lives of innocent people. It is EXACTLY over-intrusive government. It is violation of personal privacy, guilt by association and innuendo. It totally trashes every freedom we boast about as a free and open society.

Frank, you are not only a Statist; you, McCarthy and M Stanton Evans would fit perfectly in Stalin's Politburo, until YOU came under suspicion and vanished.

The Commissar Vanishes
I have this pretty incredible book that involves some of the earliest 'photo manipulation'. It's called 'The Commissar Vanishes, and it's a collection of photos dated back to Stalin's purges of the 1930's and 40's.

Basically, if you were a member of the Soviet Politburo, and you were on the 'outs' with Stalin (probably headed to the Gulag or executed) your image in a photo would be erased along with any memory of you. It was the ultimate form of damage control.

I'm looking for the meaningful, substantive content in this post, and I'm just not seeing it.

There's a very good reason why, it's because there isn't any

 

[geauxtohell]

You can also call Penthouse an "anatomy book" but that doesn't make it so.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Hey Frank, you need to heed Zappa's advice.

The depth and scope of your ignorance is beyond comprehension. Joe McCarthy is the ultimate poster boy for Statism. And you are a blind, ignorant devout Statist Frank. McCarthyism is THE prime example in the 20th century that even in America a few devious authoritarians can turn the US government into a Stalin-like machine that destroys the lives of innocent people. It is EXACTLY over-intrusive government. It is violation of personal privacy, guilt by association and innuendo. It totally trashes every freedom we boast about as a free and open society.

Frank, you are not only a Statist; you, McCarthy and M Stanton Evans would fit perfectly in Stalin's Politburo, until YOU came under suspicion and vanished.

The Commissar Vanishes
I have this pretty incredible book that involves some of the earliest 'photo manipulation'. It's called 'The Commissar Vanishes, and it's a collection of photos dated back to Stalin's purges of the 1930's and 40's.

Basically, if you were a member of the Soviet Politburo, and you were on the 'outs' with Stalin (probably headed to the Gulag or executed) your image in a photo would be erased along with any memory of you. It was the ultimate form of damage control.

I'm looking for the meaningful, substantive content in this post, and I'm just not seeing it.

There's a very good reason why, it's because there isn't any

I suspected, but I just found it so hard to believe that anyone would use that many words to say nothing whatsoever that related to the thread topic.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

You can also call Penthouse an "anatomy book" but that doesn't make it so.

But you haven't actually picked up the book, right?

Have you even heard of Venona before today?

You can keep spouting the lies you've been told your whole life, but that doesn't make them true.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I'm looking for the meaningful, substantive content in this post, and I'm just not seeing it.

There's a very good reason why, it's because there isn't any

I suspected, but I just found it so hard to believe that anyone would use that many words to say nothing whatsoever that related to the thread topic.

I'd like to think its because Progressive have taken another look at the mountain of evidence that's come out supporting McCarthy Central Thesis and are no longer comfortable standing up for spies, traitors and scumbags who sold out the USA in favor of histories 2 greatest mass murderers, Stalin and Mao, but I know better.

It's because we know they have no facts to back up the opinions they've taken as their own on McCarthy.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Communists in the US Government... handed China to Mao

That makes me question the whole book right there.

You might want to take up reading, if not as a hobby, then as an occasional distraction

Frank, I don't think its possible to rationally examine the Chinese Civil war and come to the conclusion that the US Government handed Mao China. The "pro-democracy" side, and you have to be very very loose about what it means to be "pro-democracy" to even say that, was incredibly corrupt and inept. Most Chinese didn't care a whit about Communism, they just wanted to be rid of their "democratic" corrupt leadership.

Not only that, the USA blew a shot to gain a powerful ally against Russia thanks to McCarthyism. To say China and Russia are both Communist requires that you use a very very broad definition of communism. Its kinda like saying a housecat and a lion are both cats. Chinese Communism and Russian Communism are two very different things with different historical roots and different ideologies playing into them. We couldn't see the fact that the Chinese hated and despised the Russians, and instead pushed the two together. The Chinese and the Russians have always distrusted each other, evidenced by the sheer amount of hardware these "Communist brothers" have continuously devoted to guarding their shared border.

We repeated that mistake again later when it came to Vietnam. Communism in Vietnam was more about nationalism. The Vietnamese distrusted the Chinese and hated them. It was only when they found themselves at war with the US (again because the US doggedly looked to support a corrupt "democratic" regime) that they allied with China.

The inability to examine rationally what was going on robbed us of the ability to play off Communist factions against each other and extended the Cold War by decades. McCarthyism plays a big role in why that happened.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

That makes me question the whole book right there.

You might want to take up reading, if not as a hobby, then as an occasional distraction

Frank, I don't think its possible to rationally examine the Chinese Civil war and come to the conclusion that the US Government handed Mao China. The "pro-democracy" side, and you have to be very very loose about what it means to be "pro-democracy" to even say that, was incredibly corrupt and inept. Most Chinese didn't care a whit about Communism, they just wanted to be rid of their "democratic" corrupt leadership.

Not only that, the USA blew a shot to gain a powerful ally against Russia thanks to McCarthyism. To say China and Russia are both Communist requires that you use a very very broad definition of communism. Its kinda like saying a housecat and a lion are both cats. Chinese Communism and Russian Communism are two very different things with different historical roots and different ideologies playing into them. We couldn't see the fact that the Chinese hated and despised the Russians, and instead pushed the two together. The Chinese and the Russians have always distrusted each other, evidenced by the sheer amount of hardware these "Communist brothers" have continuously devoted to guarding their shared border.

We repeated that mistake again later when it came to Vietnam. Communism in Vietnam was more about nationalism. The Vietnamese distrusted the Chinese and hated them. It was only when they found themselves at war with the US (again because the US doggedly looked to support a corrupt "democratic" regime) that they allied with China.

The inability to examine rationally what was going on robbed us of the ability to play off Communist factions against each other and extended the Cold War by decades. McCarthyism plays a big role in why that happened.

You really need to read the book, if not the chapter entire chapter "Chungking, 1944" then only the few paragraphs on how Communist spies at State and Treasury handed China to Mao because he was "Democratic" and "Progressive" and was following an "abandonment of any pure Communist program" and would bring Democracy to China "without the need of violent social upheaval" That's our State Department. That's Sol Adler. That's John Stewart Service. They should have had seats alongside the Rosenberg's.

And that's Mao they're talking about, history's biggest mass murderer.

This really is a big fucking deal and it's all been confirmed by Moscow and the FBI records.

You can continue to to tout the "McCarthy was a very bad man" line all day and night, it does not change the facts, he was 100% correct and vastly understated the problem

 

[Trajan]

The first among these "archive dive" tell all books was Venona - Soviet Espionage & American Response, 4 years later, an even deeper look, The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archive came out which as in independent source confirmed Venona and bushel of other FBI information on record and added some new twists as well. I read them both and there are some actually laughable as "anything that can go wrong will" moments, BUT they were deadly serious.

The simple fact is almost everyone charged back during the 'red scare' was guilty and a huge proportion of the critique leveled at Huac and the other investigations etc. charges as to over the top zeal in pursing communist cells, agents etc. they weren't over th top at all, the threat was here and it was real.

Thee Rosenbergs, guilty as charged , Alger Hiss, guilty as charged, Owen Lattimore guilty etc etc etc...

Unbelievably, you still find folks out there disputing the charges. In Berkeley you can trip over them.

Oh and recently an FBI archive, corroborated by Soviet doc;s has Howard Zinn as red as they thought he was, and from the beginning right after WW2, ....I mean its not a great big surprise but his defenders will tell you he wasn't a Red.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

You might want to take up reading, if not as a hobby, then as an occasional distraction

Frank, I don't think its possible to rationally examine the Chinese Civil war and come to the conclusion that the US Government handed Mao China. The "pro-democracy" side, and you have to be very very loose about what it means to be "pro-democracy" to even say that, was incredibly corrupt and inept. Most Chinese didn't care a whit about Communism, they just wanted to be rid of their "democratic" corrupt leadership.

Not only that, the USA blew a shot to gain a powerful ally against Russia thanks to McCarthyism. To say China and Russia are both Communist requires that you use a very very broad definition of communism. Its kinda like saying a housecat and a lion are both cats. Chinese Communism and Russian Communism are two very different things with different historical roots and different ideologies playing into them. We couldn't see the fact that the Chinese hated and despised the Russians, and instead pushed the two together. The Chinese and the Russians have always distrusted each other, evidenced by the sheer amount of hardware these "Communist brothers" have continuously devoted to guarding their shared border.

We repeated that mistake again later when it came to Vietnam. Communism in Vietnam was more about nationalism. The Vietnamese distrusted the Chinese and hated them. It was only when they found themselves at war with the US (again because the US doggedly looked to support a corrupt "democratic" regime) that they allied with China.

The inability to examine rationally what was going on robbed us of the ability to play off Communist factions against each other and extended the Cold War by decades. McCarthyism plays a big role in why that happened.

You really need to read the book, if not the chapter entire chapter "Chungking, 1944" then only the few paragraphs on how Communist spies at State and Treasury handed China to Mao because he was "Democratic" and "Progressive" and was following an "abandonment of any pure Communist program" and would bring Democracy to China "without the need of violent social upheaval" That's our State Department. That's Sol Adler. That's John Stewart Service. They should have had seats alongside the Rosenberg's.

And that's Mao they're talking about, history's biggest mass murderer.

This really is a big fucking deal and it's all been confirmed by Moscow and the FBI records.

You can continue to to tout the "McCarthy was a very bad man" line all day and night, it does not change the facts, he was 100% correct and vastly understated the problem

Frank, I think we're talking at cross purposes. You're talking about the US State Department's reaction to the Chinese Civil War. I'm talking about the actual Chinese Civil War. The sheer scale and scope of that war was so large as to be beyond our control. A Japanese invasion in WWII didn't stop the Chinese Civil War. It merely put the whole thing on pause until they could kick out the outsiders.

Short of an actual invasion of China, that whole thing was outside our ability to meaningfuly impact. We helped drag out the Chinese Civil War. For our efforts we were left unable to exploit the natural distrust between China and Russia. The smart play when faced with multiple opponents that have a distrust of each other is to play up those issues and play them against each other. Part of the result of McCarthyism is that instead of turning the Communists on each other, we encouraged them to work together.

That's the issue I have. Saying we "Gave China to Mao" implies we had control of the situation in China and simply made the wrong choice. We never had China to lose, so saying we lost China is just wrong. The same can be said later about Vietnam as we make essentially the same mistakes there too.