Bill Allowing Businesses to Refuse Gays Service

[Cecilie1200]

Wondering if someone could explain this to me...

You don't hear many stories of a Christian business owner refusing to serve someone who uses the Lord's name in vein, or someone who works on Sunday (by choice), or someone who commits adultery, or someone who worships idols, or someone who gambles/drinks a lot, or someone who doesn't honor his/her parents, etc, but you DO hear stories of Christian business owners refusing to serve a gay customers.

Why just this ONE sin, lol? Why are all the other sins ignored?

I think that's a fair question....

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/22/u...-businesses-to-refuse-to-serve-gays.html?_r=0

I guess ignoring the fact that the people refused service for gay weddings, not gays in general. Are you saying people don't have the right to prefer traditional marriage or the choice not to participate in nontraditional ceremonies?

To clarify, I support a business's right to refuse service to anyone they want. I'm generally a person who wants less government involvement in our lives.

The OP question was why do Christians single gay people out? Why don't they also refuse to serve people who work on Sunday (by choice) - for instance - or a guy who says "Jesus Christ" in vein all of the time, or a guy who gambles and is divorced, or a guy who's known to worship idols, or a guy who doesn't honor his parents, etc?

Why do they single out the gays as the customer of choice to refuse, as if they are the only humans on the planet who sin?

And the answer to the OP remains, "Because how a person exercises his faith is between him and his god. You don't get a vote."

 

[Cecilie1200]

To clarify, I support a business's right to refuse service to anyone they want. I'm generally a person who wants less government involvement in our lives.

The OP question was why do Christians single gay people out? Why don't they also refuse to serve people who work on Sunday (by choice) - for instance - or a guy who says "Jesus Christ" in vein all of the time, or a guy who gambles and is divorced, or a guy who's known to worship idols, or a guy who doesn't honor his parents, etc?

Why do they single out the gays as the customer of choice to refuse?

First you're making assumptions that it's not only Christians and once again you ignored my point about them refusing to service weddings, I haven't seen any evidence of other reasons.

Oh I get what you mean, but let me approach it this way..

Why don't we see cases of bakeries refusing to make a cake for someone who is getting married for the second or third time - for example? Wouldn't that be just as significant of a sin in God's eyes?

I just feel like some Christian individuals focus in a lot on the gay lifestyle (as sinful) while turning a blind eye (and even welcoming) other types of sinful lifestyles..

See, you need to understand the difference between "bakeries refusing to service second marriages" and "CASES of bakeries refusing to service second weddings." Because there are Christian business owners who will refuse to service weddings for divorcees. The differences is that it's only the gays who get their panties ruffled and storm off to find a lawyer.

 

[Cecilie1200]

And a gay business can refuse Christians

Yeah, because I'm sure there are whole rafts of fundamentalists trotting out to the Rainbow Bakery for penis-shaped cupcakes after Sunday services.

Unlike homosexuals, Christians are perfectly happy to just avoid people who don't like them whenever possible, rather than making a federal case - literally, when available - out of it.

 

[Kosh]

Once again another far left fail thread.

That adds a lot, lol. Thanks Kosh you're always a beacon of insight.

Start with a far left ideal not based in reality and it will get pointed out!

 

[Kosh]

Exactly what makes the wants of the customer more important than the wants of the business? The OWNER of the business. Can you name a business that is successful without customers?

Ever hear the axiom: The customer is always right?

You aren't making sense. The owner decides the course of the business, not the customer. So NO, the customer is not more important, any businessman that let's a customer dictate his policy will soon learn how stupid it was.

And as a businessman of 27 years I can safely say that NO, the customer is not always right. In fact, almost never right.

SO, please provide the list of successful businesses without customers?

They are all union or government based, which is what the far left wants.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I most certainly do not think that of religious people. Some are hypocrites - sure - but some non-religious people are hypocrites too. I'm just asking why is it that the gay lifestyle gets more attention than other similarly sinful lifestyles, and why do you hear stories of photographers refusing to photograph a gay wedding and not a photographer refusing to photograph the wedding of a man who divorced his previous wife and didn't get the marriage annulled (meaning he would be committing adultery with this new woman in God's eyes)?

As far as I know the requirement for an annulment is only in the Catholic church so that leave a wide spectrum of Christians that wouldn't necessarily worry about that. You asked "why is it that the gay lifestyle gets more attention than other similarly sinful lifestyles", because they are going out of their way to force their lifestyle on a population that doesn't want it in their face. Very simple concept, people tend to push back.

Just out of curiosity, how many gay couples do you know (not counting celebrities--that you personally are aware of). Are they going out of their way to flaunt their lifestyles?

Couples? Not many, because they tend to be very promiscuous and change partners like other people change shirts. Gay people? Dozens. And yes, most of them DO go out of their way to flaunt their lifestyles, and generally with malice aforethought.

Next question.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It's kind of a broad brush you got there Kevin. Not all christians do that.

With that said..I think a business has a right to refuse service to anyone. They are paying the rent, the bills, the overhead. If they want to lose customers due to a sexual preference.....then that is on them. But to FORCE them to service people is kind of..well..unamerican. Isn't it?

Hi Gracie, I never used the phrase "all Christians" and definitely didn't intend to imply that in any way. Totally understand that.

And about the law, I can honestly swing either way on it and understand the viewpoint that businesses should be able to serve whoever they please.

But the OP was addressing the point that I've heard stories of two gays being refused wedding photography services, but never of refusing service to a divorced person remarrying, or a guy who uses the lord's name in vein a lot, etc.

You know?

I believe Gracie gave an excellent answer. I agree with her on both points. I believe any business has the right to deny service to someone and that those businesses that do deny services are going lose customers.

Would I bake the cake or do the photography job? Sure. Why not? I'm a christian and I'm being given the opportunity to do my best work for people who might not even trust christians much less allow them to be in their company on any other basis.

Love would bake the cake. imo.

And do you understand that that is YOUR personal choice, between you and God, and does not constitute the official, universal "correct" choice for all Christians in exercising their beliefs?

 

[candycorn]

Just out of curiosity, how many gay couples do you know (not counting celebrities--that you personally are aware of). Are they going out of their way to flaunt their lifestyles?

I know the question wasn't directed to me, but if I may?

I spent quite a deal of time near San Francisco and knew/saw many gay couples, some triads and other alternate situations. Do they flaunt their lifestyles? Are you kidding me?

Most of the gays I knew and know now will launch into sexual innuendo within 2 minutes of opening their mouths and they tie literally everything they speak about to sex. Their hypersexuality is so rampant that is frankly uncomfortable to be around them. And since I know that kids who were molested have often as their number one symptom: hypersexuality and, that most gay men at least have been found by the CDC to have been molested as boys, their hypersexual "in your face" behavior with the gay thing is doubly uncomfortable. As I listen to them talk and gesticulate, I always have in the front of my mind "this poor creature was abused as a child, untreated, and is now evangelizing his own unresolved psychosis on the world as a cool/hip lifestyle". Which then makes me nauseated at how dark deeds can spiral out of control if not confronted.

Yet, if you confront them now, now that gays have taken this hypersexuality, this untreated mass-compulsions of child sexual abuse to a "civil rights movement", you will be punished in some way...

Gee it's great gays took over the APA and had themselves removed from the DSM; then turned that Association into a political machine instead of a scientific one...so that the AMA, pediatrics and clinicians of all walks can take their orders from the New Establishment. Your first hint of the end of times is medical doctors assisting the amputation of healthy organs instead of confronting the obvious mental issues in so-called "transgenders". Once the AMA itself has abandoned the science, the hippocratic oath, your pretty much dead in the water as a society.

Asking christians to embrace all of this is not only beyond the pale, it is sacreligious and will get them condemned forever to the pit of fire. The buck has to stop somewhere and the frank confrontation must begin. I believe it will be right at the door step of the 1st Amendment and its guarantee of freedom of religion.

Most gay people I know had to inform me of their sexuality. I understand there is a gay football player that was all conference or something or another. I wonder if the players he tackled knew he was gay by the way he did his job. I wonder if it mattered and why it should matter now?

Do you have a link to the CDC study?

 

[1776]

I don't think a business should be forced to support a gay wedding, but just denying some gay person for other types of transactions at a business is illegal.

If some gay person needs to buy gasoline in the middle of nowhere Arizona, needs some food and water to buy, etc....a business can't deny them the basic needs of day to day life. A gay wedding is a luxury item and has a religious angle to it, so that is different.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It's kind of a broad brush you got there Kevin. Not all christians do that.

With that said..I think a business has a right to refuse service to anyone. They are paying the rent, the bills, the overhead. If they want to lose customers due to a sexual preference.....then that is on them. But to FORCE them to service people is kind of..well..unamerican. Isn't it?

And if that bill allowed them to refuse service to women? You'd be ok with that too?

How about blacks? Shall we change the laws back and allow discrimination against them again?

Well, actually, that's sort of a misrepresentation of what happened. It wasn't so much that the law ALLOWED discrimination against blacks as that it REQUIRED it. I don't know that the government has EVER twigged to the fact that associations between people are none of its business, whichever direction it swings on the subject.

And why would I not be okay with the law not forcing people who dislike women to do business with me? I'd rather know who they are, and thus be able to keep from giving them my money.

 

[Antares]

free·dom

the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.

https://www.google.com/#q=freedom

Here is the quandary the Left faces.......

The "business" cannot use its "freedom" to refuse service.....because a "gay" couple screams that "its" freedom to make a person who disagrees with their lifestyle choice bow to their "will" has been violated.

They are "free" to choose to frequent a "Gay" bakers establishment.....and the "Christian" Baker is "free" to refuse to serve them.

It is called "freedom" you Left wing assholes.

 

[Cecilie1200]

No one has proposed any business be permitted to refuse to service gays who go into their business. The controversy is whether someone can be forced to participate in homosexual activities against their will.

Even the lowly pizza delivery man has refused to deliver pizzas to the door steps in black neighborhoods.

Which usually has nothing to do with them being black, and everything to do with them being high-crime areas.

 

[Bfgrn]

No, the answer is to fight the anti-freedom zealots and protect everyone's rights. If a gay baker doesn't want to bake a hetero wedding cake then so be it and visa versa. Being open to the public does NOT mean publically owned. You clearly do not make the distinction. That makes you the enemy of freedom.

Freedom means EVERYONE is able to patronize a business. Now you are faced with the task of defining who is and who isn't considered part of the 'public'.

So...YOU have decided that some people's "freedom" is more important than someone else's "freedom".

Interesting.

If some people's 'freedom', is being able to discriminate, then YES, their 'freedom' is not even worth considering.

 

[Katzndogz]

Freedom means EVERYONE is able to patronize a business. Now you are faced with the task of defining who is and who isn't considered part of the 'public'.

You have no clue about business. Open to the public doesn't mean what you think. However the issue is the relationship, as I've said many times. Not the individual. According to you a Jew would have to bake a Nazi cake.

Not exactly. It would require a Jew to go to a Nazi revival meeting though.

 

[Antares]

Freedom means EVERYONE is able to patronize a business. Now you are faced with the task of defining who is and who isn't considered part of the 'public'.

So...YOU have decided that some people's "freedom" is more important than someone else's "freedom".

Interesting.

If some people's 'freedom', is being able to discriminate, then YES, their 'freedom' is not even worth considering.

Nope.

free·dom

the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.

https://www.google.com/#q=freedom

Here is the quandary the Left faces.......

The "business" cannot use its "freedom" to refuse service.....because a "gay" couple screams that "its" freedom to make a person who disagrees with their lifestyle choice bow to their "will" has been violated.

They are "free" to choose to frequent a "Gay" bakers establishment.....and the "Christian" Baker is "free" to refuse to serve them.

It is called "freedom" you Left wing assholes.

 

[Katzndogz]

No one has proposed any business be permitted to refuse to service gays who go into their business. The controversy is whether someone can be forced to participate in homosexual activities against their will.

Even the lowly pizza delivery man has refused to deliver pizzas to the door steps in black neighborhoods.

Which usually has nothing to do with them being black, and everything to do with them being high-crime areas.

Because they cannot force the employees to go someplace where they don't want to go. Like forcing a photographer or baker or even caterer to attend a gays wedding is someplace they don't want to go.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It's kind of a broad brush you got there Kevin. Not all christians do that.

With that said..I think a business has a right to refuse service to anyone. They are paying the rent, the bills, the overhead. If they want to lose customers due to a sexual preference.....then that is on them. But to FORCE them to service people is kind of..well..unamerican. Isn't it?

Kevin appears to agree with you, he's just in this to mock the Christians apparently.

I'm most certainly not here to "mock" Christians in general. I'm here pointing out something that seems like an hypocrisy and opening a dialog about it. We don't have to make this into one of those apocalyptic name calling battles.

The problem here is that you're assuming your perceptions are the sum total of reality. You perceive that Christians should think and feel and behave THIS way, and they don't, so you assume that it's hypocrisy, rather than just the fact that YOU do not dictate other people's consciences to them. YOU perceive that Christians don't refuse participation based on other sins, and therefore you assume that it never happens. The reality, of course, is that many things happen in the world completely outside your extremely limited awareness.

Perhaps instead of TELLING us what Christians do and why, you should try ASKING what they do and why. Maybe then we might believe that you're the seeker after knowledge that you'd like to be, instead of the Christian-bashing religiophobe you're seeming like.

 

[candycorn]

As far as I know the requirement for an annulment is only in the Catholic church so that leave a wide spectrum of Christians that wouldn't necessarily worry about that. You asked "why is it that the gay lifestyle gets more attention than other similarly sinful lifestyles", because they are going out of their way to force their lifestyle on a population that doesn't want it in their face. Very simple concept, people tend to push back.

Just out of curiosity, how many gay couples do you know (not counting celebrities--that you personally are aware of). Are they going out of their way to flaunt their lifestyles?

Personally, none, I have done business with a couple but not for a wedding. Tell me, how many heterosexual pride parades have you seen across the country? Can you tell me gay pride parades aren't flaunting their lifestyle?

Gay pride parades do flaunt their lifestyles. Do you have a problem with St. Patrick's day parades...they're flaunting their lifestyles...???

Likely not.

 

[Bfgrn]

So...YOU have decided that some people's "freedom" is more important than someone else's "freedom".

Interesting.

If some people's 'freedom', is being able to discriminate, then YES, their 'freedom' is not even worth considering.

Nope.

free·dom

the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.

https://www.google.com/#q=freedom

Here is the quandary the Left faces.......

The "business" cannot use its "freedom" to refuse service.....because a "gay" couple screams that "its" freedom to make a person who disagrees with their lifestyle choice bow to their "will" has been violated.

They are "free" to choose to frequent a "Gay" bakers establishment.....and the "Christian" Baker is "free" to refuse to serve them.

It is called "freedom" you Left wing assholes.

discrimination

noun

1. the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, age, or sex.

synonyms: prejudice, bias, bigotry, intolerance, narrow-mindedness, unfairness, inequity, favoritism, one-sidedness, partisanship; sexism, chauvinism, misogyny, racism, racialism, anti-Semitism, heterosexism, ageism, classism, casteism; historical apartheid, racial discrimination

WOW, all the tenets of conservatism in a tidy list.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Again, everyone - let me restate.

With regards to the law I actually might side with the business in some cases to refuse service. That's OK. If it's against your religion not to participate in a gay wedding that's fine - you're your own person. Is it smart business? No. Do I think it's silly? Yes. But that's my viewpoint.

HOWEVER, the point I'm making is that there are SO MANY sins that some Christians in today's society seem to ignore completely. Again, worshiping idols, divorce, sex out of wedlock, using the lord's name in vein, working on Sunday, etc, etc? It is a fair statement to say that sometimes the gays are targeted because it's "the other's" lifestyle and therefore an easy scapegoat (whereas criticizing yourself or others for getting divorced might be a bit more difficult)?

.

Again, let me restate: I find it hilarious when someone says, "You Christians are such hypocrites. Let's have a dialogue about that. What do you mean, I'm attacking you? I just want to learn more about why you're all such haters."

I mean, really? Are we supposed to take that seriously?

You just keep telling us over and over again what we do, and what we believe, and what we SHOULD do and SHOULD believe, and then you get all innocent and shocked when that's not treated as seeking knowledge.