Bill Allowing Businesses to Refuse Gays Service

[Moonglow]

Read the Ten Commandments. Which one says, "Thou shalt not be gay"?

If it's such a terrible sin, why didn't God mention it to Moses? And why didn't Jesus ever say anything about it during his entire life on Earth? Maybe it isn't that big of a deal.

Just how many times DID your mother drop you on your head as a baby?

First of all, Brain Trust, have you ever taken a close look at a Bible? They're fairly big books. Has it ever occurred to you to wonder why, if the Ten Commandments are the sum total of God's instructions on life and sin, there are so many more pages to that sucker?

Second of all, Moses appears in the Bible in Exodus, the second book. Leviticus, the third book, is a compilation of the laws the Israelites lived under after leaving Egypt in search of the Promised Land. These laws are known as the Law of Moses, because they were compiled by him. They include a description of homosexuality as "an abomination", so I think it's safe to say that God DID say something to Moses. Moses certainly seemed to think so.

Third, the same point about the Ten Commandments applies to the words of Jesus. Christ's ministry on Earth only spanned about three years. If the words He spoke while here were intended to be the sum total of God's instructions on life and sin, why are there so many more pages?

Completely aside from that puzzler, Jesus DID say a couple of things that are noteworthy in this context. In Matthew 5:17, He says, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets." The Law would be the aforementioned Law of Moses.

Furthermore, Jesus did condemn adultery (Matthew 19:18), sexual immorality (Matthew 19:9) and fornication (Matthew 15:19), aka sex of any kind outside of marriage. And He did go to the trouble of defining marriage as He saw it: Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh”? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate (Matthew 19:4-6).

This has, of course, all been pointed out many times before, and I find it very hard to believe that you have never seen it. Therefore, I can only assume that you think being deliberately obtuse is somehow a valid defense. It isn't.

How many times did Jesus say to hate people? How many times did he refuse his services to non-heretosexuals?

 

[Antares]

How many times did Christ deny his services because they were gay?

Do you even know that you are a bigot?

Just the sort of pig ignorance I expect from your type......sorry pigs..

In other words, you got nuthin.

You condone your own bigotry in the name of "fairness" and "freedom"....and you refuse to see the Gospel in its entirety....you only like the bits and pieces that "fit" your very own "belief" system.

 

[Iceweasel]

I completely understand your position now, thanks to Cecilie1200's honest and succinct statement:

Hey, I found a picture of Antares, Cecilie and OKTexas

How much farther can your argument deteriorate?

 

[Antares]

Hello? Is there an adult in the room who can assist you? Polygamy was the original 'issue' in in Reynolds v. United States that led the Supreme Court to "interpret the extent of the Free Exercise Clause"

The Supreme Court upheld Reynolds' conviction for bigamy, deciding that to do otherwise would provide constitutional protection for a gamut of religious beliefs, including those as extreme as human sacrifice.

Of federal territorial laws, the Court said: "Laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious beliefs and opinions, they may with practices."

Dude do you have ANY idea how easy it is to yank your chain and make you dance?

But hey YOU have declared not selling a cake to someone is a "weapon".....

YOU have declared that you support ONLY enforcing the parts of the Bill of Rights and Constitution that YOU agree with.

YOU have declared that "freedom" is a zero sum game....and that the ONLY way to "increase" someone's "freedom" is to "restrict" someone else's....

YOU have asserted the same totalitarian approach to things that ALL Lefty's do.....silencing and shutting down all dissent.

Never mind that there is NO logic at all to any of your positions....you believe them therefore they are "right"

You know full well that they were "free" to choose another bakery but they wanted to get their 15 minutes of fame.

I completely understand your position now, thanks to Cecilie1200's honest and succinct statement:

No, we're defending THE RIGHT to discriminate.

And take solace, America has seen your ilk before in our history.

And back then, your ilk said those '*******' are "free" to choose another bakery.

Hey, I found a picture of Antares, Cecilie and OKTexas

(smile) Rest easy in your own "bigotry" and "hatred" it is "justified" in the smugness you feel when YOU hate others that disagree with you.

You've been badly out debated here....so you resort to this

I understand.

 

[Antares]

I completely understand your position now, thanks to Cecilie1200's honest and succinct statement:

Hey, I found a picture of Antares, Cecilie and OKTexas

How much farther can your argument deteriorate?

That point is well beyond the kids understanding.

 

[Moonglow]

Dude do you have ANY idea how easy it is to yank your chain and make you dance?

But hey YOU have declared not selling a cake to someone is a "weapon".....

YOU have declared that you support ONLY enforcing the parts of the Bill of Rights and Constitution that YOU agree with.

YOU have declared that "freedom" is a zero sum game....and that the ONLY way to "increase" someone's "freedom" is to "restrict" someone else's....

YOU have asserted the same totalitarian approach to things that ALL Lefty's do.....silencing and shutting down all dissent.

Never mind that there is NO logic at all to any of your positions....you believe them therefore they are "right"

You know full well that they were "free" to choose another bakery but they wanted to get their 15 minutes of fame.

I completely understand your position now, thanks to Cecilie1200's honest and succinct statement:

No, we're defending THE RIGHT to discriminate.

And take solace, America has seen your ilk before in our history.

And back then, your ilk said those '*******' are "free" to choose another bakery.

Hey, I found a picture of Antares, Cecilie and OKTexas

(smile) Rest easy in your own "bigotry" and "hatred" it is "justified" in the smugness you feel when YOU hate others that disagree with you.

You've been badly out debated here....so you resort to this

I understand.

Damn if facts don't get in the way.

 

[Antares]

How many times did Christ deny his services because they were gay?

Do you even know that you are a bigot?

Just the sort of pig ignorance I expect from your type......sorry pigs..

Your "selective" Christianity has been duly noted and judged by your god.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The Constitution and the Bill of Rights protects our rights to religious freedom; to worship at any church of our choosing or to not worship at all. But the Constitution and the Bill of Rights does not protect our right to use our religion as a weapon against fellow citizens.

The Constitution gives you that right to freely exercise your religion, not just worship where you want. It's clear you haven't actually read the Constitution lately, you might want to give it a try.

It is part of the Bill of Rights, and maybe you should do a little reading...

The Free Exercise Clause is the accompanying clause with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause together read:
“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... ”

In 1878, the Supreme Court was first called to interpret the extent of the Free Exercise Clause in Reynolds v. United States, as related to the prosecution of polygamy under federal law. The Supreme Court upheld Reynolds' conviction for bigamy, deciding that to do otherwise would provide constitutional protection for a gamut of religious beliefs, including those as extreme as human sacrifice. The Court said (at page 162): "Congress cannot pass a law for the government of the Territory which shall prohibit the free exercise of religion. The first amendment to the Constitution expressly forbids such legislation." Of federal territorial laws, the Court said: "Laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious beliefs and opinions, they may with practices."

Yes, never mind figuring out what the Constitution says by reading the Constitution. You should go read Wikipedia and have it tell you what the Constitution says.

Ohmigod, my sides literally hurt from laughing at this.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Wondering if someone could explain this to me...

You don't hear many stories of a Christian business owner refusing to serve someone who uses the Lord's name in vein, or someone who works on Sunday (by choice), or someone who commits adultery, or someone who worships idols, or someone who gambles/drinks a lot, or someone who doesn't honor his/her parents, etc, but you DO hear stories of Christian business owners refusing to serve a gay customers.

Why just this ONE sin, lol? Why are all the other sins ignored?

I think that's a fair question....

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/22/u...-businesses-to-refuse-to-serve-gays.html?_r=0

It has LOT to do with being PART of the ‘sin’ rather than just a witness to it. IOW, if I serve you a meal and you are gay the two circumstances are completely separate from each other. Your need to eat and me taking care of that need has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you are gay.

That is NOT the case when you are in a wedding and you want me to photograph, make the wedding cake or otherwise support the event that I am against. There is no real difference than if you are asking me to preside over the event and be the pastor. You are not simply asking for a service anymore, you are asking me to take part in or support a function that I fundamentally disagree with.

No matter if you think that is bigoted or incorrect, that is the way that I think the individuals themselves see this. It is why they are refusing to be a part of such an event. I can’t say that I think the law should be involved one way or another.


I will state that the mere idea of a law ‘allowing’ you to do anything is absolutely insane. The very concept is against everything I believe this nation stands for. Laws outline the boundaries – what I cannot do. I can do EVERYTHING else. At no time should a law tell me what I can do.

No I get that (I think OKTexas was pointing it out too), but my question was more around exploring the idea that Christians (in my view) tend to fixate on not wanting to participate in anything that has to do with gay marriage/gay lifestyle (and will go to the length to maybe turn down a wedding photography job, or cake job), but are fine allowing themselves to participate in a wedding where a man and woman are remarrying for the 2 and 3 times (respectively).

Maybe it does happen and people refuse to participate in remarriages under religious grounds and it simply doesn't get covered in the news. However, in my view, it seems the gay lifestyle (and all the sins that come with it) tends to get the most notice - why?

This is probably more of a religious question than anything; I'm fine with businesses refusing service - to be honest - from a legal standpoint.

The issue would have to depend upon if the individual is changing his/her ways or simply doesn't care and is continuing in their sin. The bible always looks to the thoughts and intent of the "heart" when it comes to sin... are they being remorseful or finding ways (looking to others) to condone such behavior? In the mind of a Christian, everyone sins at some degree and no one is by any means perfect. The important question is how you choose to deal with it when faced with the knowledge that it is a sin. Now Christians are not to judge others, for by the same measure you are to be judged. However, there is no biblical scripture that states one must condone sin, but rather strive to overcome it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It's okay. Homosexuals and lesbians are free to find other places to shop, and society in general is free to tell Christians that there never was a talking snake and it's just stupid for grown adults to believe that Noah was able to get two of every animal on Earth onto one boat.

And we're free to look at you quizzically and inquire as to who the **** asked you.

 

[Antares]

Here is the funny thing

My wife is black and my sister is married to her "partner".....you see you live in a theoretical world....and THOSE are the easiest worlds to live in

 

[Cecilie1200]

If I owned a business I would take who ever monies were extended to me to make a profit.

Who cares?

 

[Moonglow]

If I owned a business I would take who ever monies were extended to me to make a profit.

Who cares?

My wallet.

 

[Bfgrn]

Dude do you have ANY idea how easy it is to yank your chain and make you dance?

But hey YOU have declared not selling a cake to someone is a "weapon".....

YOU have declared that you support ONLY enforcing the parts of the Bill of Rights and Constitution that YOU agree with.

YOU have declared that "freedom" is a zero sum game....and that the ONLY way to "increase" someone's "freedom" is to "restrict" someone else's....

YOU have asserted the same totalitarian approach to things that ALL Lefty's do.....silencing and shutting down all dissent.

Never mind that there is NO logic at all to any of your positions....you believe them therefore they are "right"

You know full well that they were "free" to choose another bakery but they wanted to get their 15 minutes of fame.

I completely understand your position now, thanks to Cecilie1200's honest and succinct statement:

No, we're defending THE RIGHT to discriminate.

And take solace, America has seen your ilk before in our history.

And back then, your ilk said those '*******' are "free" to choose another bakery.

Hey, I found a picture of Antares, Cecilie and OKTexas

(smile) Rest easy in your own "bigotry" and "hatred" it is "justified" in the smugness you feel when YOU hate others that disagree with you.

You've been badly out debated here....so you resort to this

I understand.

No, we're defending THE RIGHT to discriminate.

Please tell me what part of Cecilie1200's declaration you disagree with?

America was founded on the tenets of the Declaration of Independence. Now we have the Declaration of Discrimination.

 

[OKTexas]

Hello? Is there an adult in the room who can assist you? Polygamy was the original 'issue' in in Reynolds v. United States that led the Supreme Court to "interpret the extent of the Free Exercise Clause"

The Supreme Court upheld Reynolds' conviction for bigamy, deciding that to do otherwise would provide constitutional protection for a gamut of religious beliefs, including those as extreme as human sacrifice.

Of federal territorial laws, the Court said: "Laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious beliefs and opinions, they may with practices."

Dude do you have ANY idea how easy it is to yank your chain and make you dance?

But hey YOU have declared not selling a cake to someone is a "weapon".....

YOU have declared that you support ONLY enforcing the parts of the Bill of Rights and Constitution that YOU agree with.

YOU have declared that "freedom" is a zero sum game....and that the ONLY way to "increase" someone's "freedom" is to "restrict" someone else's....

YOU have asserted the same totalitarian approach to things that ALL Lefty's do.....silencing and shutting down all dissent.

Never mind that there is NO logic at all to any of your positions....you believe them therefore they are "right"

You know full well that they were "free" to choose another bakery but they wanted to get their 15 minutes of fame.

I completely understand your position now, thanks to Cecilie1200's honest and succinct statement:

No, we're defending THE RIGHT to discriminate.

And take solace, America has seen your ilk before in our history.

And back then, your ilk said those '*******' are "free" to choose another bakery.

Hey, I found a picture of Antares, Cecilie and OKTexas

Still running like a little girl from my questions in post #135, you want to tell the class why?

 

[Cecilie1200]

If I owned a business I would take who ever monies were extended to me to make a profit.

....and we would support that decision.

Just as we support the decision NOT to take their money.

Se how flexible we are?

The intransigence and suppression of freedom is coming from the Left.

Freedom to hate is right there in the Bible.. Even though the by-line is love and acceptance. See why people that call themselve religious are so confused to be able to understand the duality of the scriptures?

Seriously, all you Billy Graham wannabes should really start your own religion. You could call it The Church of Nobody Gives a ****, and then we could all OFFICIALLY ignore what you think, rather than doing so on the informal basis we do now.

 

[Moonglow]

....and we would support that decision.

Just as we support the decision NOT to take their money.

Se how flexible we are?

The intransigence and suppression of freedom is coming from the Left.

Freedom to hate is right there in the Bible.. Even though the by-line is love and acceptance. See why people that call themselve religious are so confused to be able to understand the duality of the scriptures?

Seriously, all you Billy Graham wannabes should really start your own religion. You could call it The Church of Nobody Gives a ****, and then we could all OFFICIALLY ignore what you think, rather than doing so on the informal basis we do now.

Shallow and pedantic, who knew?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Freedom to hate is right there in the Bible.. Even though the by-line is love and acceptance.

You need to prove that they were motivated by hate, you have made the charge.

A thing is not hate just because YOU don't like it.

You see the Left ALWAYS thinks that they can marginalize dissent by labeling it something....that only works on you low information voters.

How does one person's statement reflect what millions may think?
Hate, disassociation, repugnance, call it what you want. But if you don't like something then you hate it. Christians are taught to love the sinner but hate the sin.

And leftist twerps teach that if you don't applaud the sin, you obviously hate the sinner. Which may be why no one whatsoever is looking to you fools for religious wisdom.

 

[Antares]

I completely understand your position now, thanks to Cecilie1200's honest and succinct statement:



And take solace, America has seen your ilk before in our history.

And back then, your ilk said those '*******' are "free" to choose another bakery.

Hey, I found a picture of Antares, Cecilie and OKTexas

(smile) Rest easy in your own "bigotry" and "hatred" it is "justified" in the smugness you feel when YOU hate others that disagree with you.

You've been badly out debated here....so you resort to this

I understand.

No, we're defending THE RIGHT to discriminate.

Please tell me what part of Cecilie1200's declaration you disagree with?

America was founded on the tenets of the Declaration of Independence. Now we have the Declaration of Discrimination.

Kid YOU are the one trying to redefine what the Constitution and the Bill of Rights say not me.

I speak only for me.

The fact that you are completely oblivious to your own hatred and bigotry is lost only on you.

Me?

Adam and Steve can CHOOSE any other Bakery.
The Bakery who "chose" not to sell to them are completely within THEIR "rights" to so.

This means that YOU choose to use the point of a gun to ENFORCE your version of "freedom" upon everyone else....

I CHOOSE to let everyone else CHOOSE whom they will serve and why...you see THAT is what "freedom" is.

Freedom is NOT you making others do as YOU think is right.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Moonglow, do YOU hate Christians?

No. I was raised as one. I also know the Bible like the back of me hand. Was in choir for many years as my grandmother was the music director for 55 years and a theologian.I was taught what true love of God was and how to be a nice person to all peoples on the earth.

If you think Christianity is all about being nice and tolerating anything people choose to do so they won't feel offended, then you don't know anything about the Bible, and someone ought to go back in time and slap the snot out of your grandmother.