Best Peace Plan I have heard - From a Palestinian American

[GHook93]

If you answer anything other than the obvious you have proven yourself a tool of the terrorists.

Not sure what you are trying to get him to say Rabbi?

But you have proven yourself a "tool" on this board many times.

Pot calling the kettle Black!

 

[Polk]

While I don't agree with "Rabbi" (far from it in fact), it's not that simple. I would argue there is a big difference between targeting civilians (as the Palestinians do) and some civilians being killed in the context of a military operation (as the Israelis do).

What is the difference in the outcome of each situation?

What is the difference between being murdered and dying of natural causes, as the outcome is the same in both situations?

It pains to me to have to agree with you, but this.

 

[Polk]

What is the difference in the outcome of each situation?

What is the difference between being murdered and dying of natural causes, as the outcome is the same in both situations?

Let's not be distracted from the fact that all of the deaths we're discussing here involve murder.

Disagree. Murder requires malice and/or intent.

 

[Kalam]

What is the difference between being murdered and dying of natural causes, as the outcome is the same in both situations?

Let's not be distracted from the fact that all of the deaths we're discussing here involve murder.

Disagree. Murder requires malice and/or intent.

Now we're playing with semantics. Why do we distinguish so readily between violent deaths caused purposefully and violent deaths caused due to apathy, carelessness, and negligence?

 

[Polk]

Let's not be distracted from the fact that all of the deaths we're discussing here involve murder.

Disagree. Murder requires malice and/or intent.

Now we're playing with semantics. Why do we distinguish so readily between violent deaths caused purposefully and violent deaths caused due to apathy, carelessness, and negligence?

It's not semantics. There is a different between intending to kill someone and doing so accidentally. Using your standard, there is no moral difference between a bank robber shooting a hostage and a police sniper accidentally shooting a hostage while trying to fire to take out the sniper.

 

[Kalam]

Disagree. Murder requires malice and/or intent.

Now we're playing with semantics. Why do we distinguish so readily between violent deaths caused purposefully and violent deaths caused due to apathy, carelessness, and negligence?

It's not semantics. There is a different between intending to kill someone and doing so accidentally. Using your standard, there is no moral difference between a bank robber shooting a hostage and a police sniper accidentally shooting a hostage while trying to fire to take out the sniper.

The second scenario would be purely accidental and, therefore, forgivable. The Goldstone Report and other analyses of Israel's Gaza massacre have confirmed what we knew all along: the deaths of many Gazan civilians were easily preventable and resulted from Israel taking insufficient precautions to prevent such "collateral damage." Using cluster munitions in a densely-populated urban area causes easily avoidable civilian casualties. Wanton slaughter is hardly better than purposeful killing in my book.

 

[P F Tinmore]

b. Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.

The history of Islam is a history of ignoring the rights of other religions.
If Israel were to let all the "Palestinians" back in they would immediately turn into second class citizens or outright slaves.

Palestinian Christians and Jews Have more rights than do Christians and Muslims in Israel.

Palestinian Basic Law (constitution)
Article 9
Palestinians shall be equal before the law and the judiciary, without distinction based upon race, sex, color, religion, political views or disability.

The facts on the ground affirm this. A good example is that the mayor of Ramalah, the de-facto capitol of Palestine, is a Christian woman. Another is that Fatah has appointed a Jew to an influential post.

The Jews can stay, it is Israel that must go, ~ Hamas

 

[P F Tinmore]

What is the difference between being murdered and dying of natural causes, as the outcome is the same in both situations?

Let's not be distracted from the fact that all of the deaths we're discussing here involve murder.

Disagree. Murder requires malice and/or intent.

That is true. When Israel drops a bomb on an apartment building to kill a "terrorist" it did not intend to kill all those other people.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Disagree. Murder requires malice and/or intent.

Now we're playing with semantics. Why do we distinguish so readily between violent deaths caused purposefully and violent deaths caused due to apathy, carelessness, and negligence?

It's not semantics. There is a different between intending to kill someone and doing so accidentally. Using your standard, there is no moral difference between a bank robber shooting a hostage and a police sniper accidentally shooting a hostage while trying to fire to take out the sniper.

What if the sniper machine guns the bank in hopes of hitting the robber?

 

[The Rabbi]

What is the difference in the outcome of each situation?

What is the difference between being murdered and dying of natural causes, as the outcome is the same in both situations?

Let's not be distracted from the fact that all of the deaths we're discussing here involve murder.

Not every death is murder. Some deaths are the result of war. Some the result of terrorism. SOme the result of accident. Some the result of negligence.
When Hamas stages operations from heavily populated civilian areas knowing what the outcome will be (Israeli action that results in the death of civilians) then they are guilty of criminal negligence.

 

[GHook93]

b. Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.

The history of Islam is a history of ignoring the rights of other religions.
If Israel were to let all the "Palestinians" back in they would immediately turn into second class citizens or outright slaves.

Palestinian Christians and Jews Have more rights than do Christians and Muslims in Israel.

Palestinian Basic Law (constitution)
Article 9
Palestinians shall be equal before the law and the judiciary, without distinction based upon race, sex, color, religion, political views or disability.

The facts on the ground affirm this. A good example is that the mayor of Ramalah, the de-facto capitol of Palestine, is a Christian woman. Another is that Fatah has appointed a Jew to an influential post.

The Jews can stay, it is Israel that must go, ~ Hamas

LOL, tell that to the Gazans Christians! A writing on paper means nothing if its not enforced (a source)!

The Jew in Fatah! LOL, he is used as a great propaganda piece. He is a self-hating Jew that has repeatedly called for the destruction of Israel.


Get your facts right. Where are the Christians in the Palestinian Parliament, or Hamas's leadership in Gaza. Israel has more Muslims in their Parliament than the entire Arab and Persian world (excluding Lebanon) has Christians and Jews in their.

Their is even an Arab sitting on the Israeli Supreme Court! Arabs and Christians are mayors and hold municipal positions.

Arabs and Christians have all the same rights as Jews in Israeli, except they are not forced to serve in the military.

So take your weakl propaganda and shove it up your ass!

 

[Coyote]

Arabs and Christians have all the same rights as Jews in Israeli, except they are not forced to serve in the military.

Wrong.

According to a State Department report, Arabs and Jews do not have the same rights (I don't know about Christians but you don't make much sense mixing a religious identity with an ethnic identity in that statement).

Israel welcomes and gives automatic citizenship to any Jewish immigrants or immigrants who have a Jewish parent or grandparent. It denies such citizenship and residence rights to Palestinians living in refugee camps in the West Bank and in Gaza who were born in Israel, and whose very lands Israel has expropriated and holds "in trust for the Jewish people."

Israel also has a a registration law classifying it's citizens as either of "Jewish nationality," or of "Arab nationality" - there is no Israeli nationality. Citizenship and nationality are not the same nor are the rights given to each group the same.

Citizens with "Jewish nationality" have certain rights and privileges which are denied to those with "Arab nationality" including rights involving the ownership or use of the very land which was expropriated from the Palestinians in the first place. Israeli Arabs own less than 3% of the land in Israel.

So right there we have distinct differences in citizenship rights and land rights.

Permits are rarely granted to Arab families to expand their housing; and most Jewish towns and neighborhoods remain off-limits to Arabs as are most Jewish (publically funded) schools. Is that not reminiscent of pre-civil rights America? Seperate but "equal"? Arab neighborhoods suffer severe overcrowding because they are refused permits to expand. Over a thousand new Jewish villages were approved and created since the creation of Israel. How many new Arab villages? (One?)

 

[Coyote]

While I don't agree with "Rabbi" (far from it in fact), it's not that simple. I would argue there is a big difference between targeting civilians (as the Palestinians do) and some civilians being killed in the context of a military operation (as the Israelis do).

What is the difference in the outcome of each situation?

See my avatar for the difference Kalam!

A difference that is a oft perpetrated myth because you are using a distinct minority of Palestinians who use citizens as "human shields". Keep in mind that in the last conflict the Palestinians were all trapped together in one congested area and no means of separating out and that Israeli soldiers themselves have been accused of using Palestinian human shields.

A myth that, in this case, serves a convenient political purpose.

 

[Coyote]

If I throw your dog in front of a truck, who is responsible for killing your dog, me or the truck? If I claim I did that because you looked bad at me, does that absolve me from all guilt?

If you answer anything other than the obvious you have proven yourself a tool of the terrorists.

Your logic is flawed. Simply looking at the last conflict within Gaza points that out. White phospherous in an urban center - the most densly populated area on earth?

An Israeli kills an unarmed Palestinian.
A Palestinian kills an unarmed Israeli.

What's the difference?

The fact that you would label anyone who disagrees with you "a tool of the terrorists" shows you up as the joke you are - incapable of honest debate.

While I don't agree with "Rabbi" (far from it in fact), it's not that simple. I would argue there is a big difference between targeting civilians (as the Palestinians do) and some civilians being killed in the context of a military operation (as the Israelis do).

I'm not sure that difference is always so clear.

I'll give two examples:

It has been said that in some cases Israeli military installations are mixed in with civilian populations making it almost impossible for the poorly aimed rockets to avoid hitting civilians whether or not they are the intended targets.

It has also been documented that in the last conflict in Gaza where Israel closed access and attacked the civilians had no place of safety. There were many reports of directed violence towards civilians, preventable homicide, the use of white phosperous (specifically contra-indicted for urban areas) and the refusal to admit medical aid into the area until much time had passed.

I think what is most telling though, is the disproportionate numbers in civilian casualties between the two groups.

 

[Barb]

If I throw your dog in front of a truck, who is responsible for killing your dog, me or the truck? If I claim I did that because you looked bad at me, does that absolve me from all guilt?

If you answer anything other than the obvious you have proven yourself a tool of the terrorists.

Your logic is flawed. Simply looking at the last conflict within Gaza points that out. White phospherous in an urban center - the most densly populated area on earth?

An Israeli kills an unarmed Palestinian.
A Palestinian kills an unarmed Israeli.

What's the difference?

The fact that you would label anyone who disagrees with you "a tool of the terrorists" shows you up as the joke you are - incapable of honest debate.

While I don't agree with "Rabbi" (far from it in fact), it's not that simple. I would argue there is a big difference between targeting civilians (as the Palestinians do) and some civilians being killed in the context of a military operation (as the Israelis do).

The difference there is in means, not end results. The Palestinians aren't allowed the means for "traditional" (see respectable) warfare which kills innocent innocent civilians, women, and children, but they are fighting (without a "respectable" army) against a force that does. Taken in toto, it is a distinction without a definitive difference.

 

[Coyote]

Now we're playing with semantics. Why do we distinguish so readily between violent deaths caused purposefully and violent deaths caused due to apathy, carelessness, and negligence?

It's not semantics. There is a different between intending to kill someone and doing so accidentally. Using your standard, there is no moral difference between a bank robber shooting a hostage and a police sniper accidentally shooting a hostage while trying to fire to take out the sniper.

The second scenario would be purely accidental and, therefore, forgivable. The Goldstone Report and other analyses of Israel's Gaza massacre have confirmed what we knew all along: the deaths of many Gazan civilians were easily preventable and resulted from Israel taking insufficient precautions to prevent such "collateral damage." Using cluster munitions in a densely-populated urban area causes easily avoidable civilian casualties. Wanton slaughter is hardly better than purposeful killing in my book.

This.


And it is this conflict more than any thing else that has eroded Israel's legitimacy in this conflict. It is no better than the terrorists they are fighting.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The history of Islam is a history of ignoring the rights of other religions.
If Israel were to let all the "Palestinians" back in they would immediately turn into second class citizens or outright slaves.

Palestinian Christians and Jews Have more rights than do Christians and Muslims in Israel.

Palestinian Basic Law (constitution)
Article 9
Palestinians shall be equal before the law and the judiciary, without distinction based upon race, sex, color, religion, political views or disability.

The facts on the ground affirm this. A good example is that the mayor of Ramalah, the de-facto capitol of Palestine, is a Christian woman. Another is that Fatah has appointed a Jew to an influential post.

The Jews can stay, it is Israel that must go, ~ Hamas

LOL, tell that to the Gazans Christians! A writing on paper means nothing if its not enforced (a source)!

The Jew in Fatah! LOL, he is used as a great propaganda piece. He is a self-hating Jew that has repeatedly called for the destruction of Israel.


Get your facts right. Where are the Christians in the Palestinian Parliament, or Hamas's leadership in Gaza. Israel has more Muslims in their Parliament than the entire Arab and Persian world (excluding Lebanon) has Christians and Jews in their.

Their is even an Arab sitting on the Israeli Supreme Court! Arabs and Christians are mayors and hold municipal positions.

Arabs and Christians have all the same rights as Jews in Israeli, except they are not forced to serve in the military.

So take your weakl propaganda and shove it up your ass!

""We are all one people who suffer together for the sake of freedom, independence and restoration of our inalienable citizenship rights," Hanyieh stated publicly. "We are waging a single struggle and refuse to allow any party to tamper with or manipulate this historical relationship, [between Muslims and Christians]."

Currently, Palestine's Christian community hovers between two and 10 percent.

In Gaza, approximately 3,000 Christians still call this former Egyptian territory home - with the majority of the community living within Gaza City near the three main churches: The Greek Orthodox, the Roman Catholic, and the Gaza Baptist.

Christians in Gaza have the same rights as their Muslim neighbours, rights guaranteed under the Palestinian Declaration of Independence. Within the Legislative Council, several seats have been reserved for Christian leaders.

Seventeen-year-old Christian student Ali Al Jeldah told IPS about attending a dual faith school: "My life is normal and I've never felt oppressed. Being Muslim or Christian is never an issue."

"I have many Muslim friends. We hang out and study together with no differences at all," Al Jeldah said.

Lelias Ali, a 16-year-old Muslim student at Holy Family School, concurs. "We have a unity of struggle, a unity of aim - to live under the same circumstances. This land is for both of us and being a Christian or Muslim should not separate us" she said.

"I have lots of friends. Being Muslim or Christian is not an issue," Diana Al Sadi, a 17-year-old student told IPS.

"I go to my friends' homes for happy and sad occasions," Al Sadi said, "including Christmas and Easter. They visit mine during Eid [the Muslim holiday that marks the end of Ramadan, the Islamic holy month of fasting]."

When the students were asked if Christians are being harassed by Hamas or the Palestinian police, all agreed that this was not the case."

Sorry I can't post a link yet

Hanan Ashrawi comes to mind as a Christian Google for info.

 

[Polk]

Now we're playing with semantics. Why do we distinguish so readily between violent deaths caused purposefully and violent deaths caused due to apathy, carelessness, and negligence?

It's not semantics. There is a different between intending to kill someone and doing so accidentally. Using your standard, there is no moral difference between a bank robber shooting a hostage and a police sniper accidentally shooting a hostage while trying to fire to take out the sniper.

What if the sniper machine guns the bank in hopes of hitting the robber?

Except that's not what happens.

 

[Polk]

Arabs and Christians have all the same rights as Jews in Israeli, except they are not forced to serve in the military.

Wrong.

According to a State Department report, Arabs and Jews do not have the same rights (I don't know about Christians but you don't make much sense mixing a religious identity with an ethnic identity in that statement).

Israel welcomes and gives automatic citizenship to any Jewish immigrants or immigrants who have a Jewish parent or grandparent. It denies such citizenship and residence rights to Palestinians living in refugee camps in the West Bank and in Gaza who were born in Israel, and whose very lands Israel has expropriated and holds "in trust for the Jewish people."

Israel also has a a registration law classifying it's citizens as either of "Jewish nationality," or of "Arab nationality" - there is no Israeli nationality. Citizenship and nationality are not the same nor are the rights given to each group the same.

Citizens with "Jewish nationality" have certain rights and privileges which are denied to those with "Arab nationality" including rights involving the ownership or use of the very land which was expropriated from the Palestinians in the first place. Israeli Arabs own less than 3% of the land in Israel.

So right there we have distinct differences in citizenship rights and land rights.

Permits are rarely granted to Arab families to expand their housing; and most Jewish towns and neighborhoods remain off-limits to Arabs as are most Jewish (publically funded) schools. Is that not reminiscent of pre-civil rights America? Seperate but "equal"? Arab neighborhoods suffer severe overcrowding because they are refused permits to expand. Over a thousand new Jewish villages were approved and created since the creation of Israel. How many new Arab villages? (One?)

Beyond that, there have been efforts to ban Arab political parties.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It's not semantics. There is a different between intending to kill someone and doing so accidentally. Using your standard, there is no moral difference between a bank robber shooting a hostage and a police sniper accidentally shooting a hostage while trying to fire to take out the sniper.

What if the sniper machine guns the bank in hopes of hitting the robber?

Except that's not what happens.

Israel will shoot a rocket into a "terrorist's" house killing the whole family and a few neighbors. Or into a car on a busy street. That is close enough for me.