Bernie Sanders thinks our government should be more like the ones found in Scandanavia

[bripat9643]

Not willing to take your own part of the blame?
IMO, our schools are failing because of our insistence that every district be independent and NOT handled like a socialist government collective.

Every public school is a socialist government collective. That's precisely what's wrong with them.

The pupils of the socialist collective schools won WW2 and put a man on the moon for example. They can't be all that bad.

Conservative American engineers and businessmen won WW II and put a man on the moon. However, WW II was just one fascist country fighting another fascist country.

How do you know the engineers were conservatives? These businessmens' asses were saved by FDR and his socialist policies. And FDR was in charge during WW2.

Actually, I am convinced that Russia won world war 2. We served only as a distraction. Not to say the western front didn't fight and die just as valiantly, but if Russia had not been slaughtering the Nazis on the eastern front, we would have been killed on the west for sure.

That said, the business man were not, by any rational position... "saved" by FDR. Not a chance. That's idiotic at best, and down right lying at worst.

Russia would have lost without the vast amounts of supplies provided by the United States. Our bombing campaign also had a large impact on the war.

 

[bripat9643]

Conservatives: rewriting history to serve their agenda.

Same to you.

So-called "history" is just the propaganda of the winning side.

 

[Dragonlady]

No history is the first hand accounts of those who lived through the time.

The conservatives have made a concerted effort to go through history books and rewrite history from a more "conservative" point of view. The intention is not to provide students with facts to allow them to make up their own minds as to what policies work but rather to indoctrinate students into believing conservatives dogma.

This is why Americans are falling further and further behind the rest of the world academically. You don't want people with critical thinking capabilities, you want preprogrammed voters.

 

[Andylusion]

Every public school is a socialist government collective. That's precisely what's wrong with them.

The pupils of the socialist collective schools won WW2 and put a man on the moon for example. They can't be all that bad.

Conservative American engineers and businessmen won WW II and put a man on the moon. However, WW II was just one fascist country fighting another fascist country.

How do you know the engineers were conservatives? These businessmens' asses were saved by FDR and his socialist policies. And FDR was in charge during WW2.

Actually, I am convinced that Russia won world war 2. We served only as a distraction. Not to say the western front didn't fight and die just as valiantly, but if Russia had not been slaughtering the Nazis on the eastern front, we would have been killed on the west for sure.

That said, the business man were not, by any rational position... "saved" by FDR. Not a chance. That's idiotic at best, and down right lying at worst.

Russia would have lost without the vast amounts of supplies provided by the United States. Our bombing campaign also had a large impact on the war.

I would agree with some of that. Russia may or may not have lost... hard to say. The big turning point was that crushing winter, and Stalin placing blocking units behind his own troops, with orders to shoot to kill anyone who tried to run from the front.

Russia was the primary fighter of the war. No question. Did our "Lend Lease" program help? Sure. Only a democrat could come up with a program sold to the US public as "Lend Lease" on military bombs and ammunition. I've heard from reputable sources, none of lent hardware, and leased munitions were returned at the end of that contract... can't imagine why...

Whether or not they could have done it without aid... maybe not... debatable.

I honestly believe that our biggest effect on the war, was that the Germans were willing to surrender to us, because no matter how horrible war is, and how terrible our troops acted, we were angelic compared to the Russians. They raped and pillaged and slaughtered. We didn't. So the Germans pretty much caved along the western front, while they fought to the bloody bitter end on the eastern front.

Hopefully the Middle East nations will learn from that, on how to deal with ISIS, and such.

 

[Andylusion]

No history is the first hand accounts of those who lived through the time.

The conservatives have made a concerted effort to go through history books and rewrite history from a more "conservative" point of view. The intention is not to provide students with facts to allow them to make up their own minds as to what policies work but rather to indoctrinate students into believing conservatives dogma.

This is why Americans are falling further and further behind the rest of the world academically. You don't want people with critical thinking capabilities, you want preprogrammed voters.

Same to you.

The left-wingers have made a concerted effort to go through history books and rewrite history from a more "leftist" point of view. The intention is not to provide students with facts to allow them to make up their own minds as to what policies work but rather to indoctrinate students into believing left-wing dogma.

This is why Americans are falling further and further behind the rest of the world academically. You don't want people with critical thinking capabilities, you want preprogrammed voters.

 

[Papageorgio]

Sanders won't get elected, what he thinks our government should be like is one mans opinion and why Hillary will kick his ass.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

No history is the first hand accounts of those who lived through the time.

The conservatives have made a concerted effort to go through history books and rewrite history from a more "conservative" point of view. The intention is not to provide students with facts to allow them to make up their own minds as to what policies work but rather to indoctrinate students into believing conservatives dogma.

This is why Americans are falling further and further behind the rest of the world academically. You don't want people with critical thinking capabilities, you want preprogrammed voters.

ROFLMNAO! I SO adore the sweeter irony.

Imagine an irony SO sweet, that a Relativist comes to lament SUBJECTIVISM!

LOL! It doesn't GET more pitiful than THAT!

 

[bripat9643]

No history is the first hand accounts of those who lived through the time.

Unfortunately for your delusion, the first-hand accounts of some are considered to be more valid than the first hand accounts of others. If we simply look at what's on the news, which we know to be grossly biased and little more than shameless propaganda, we come to understand that history is little more than propaganda since the news is what becomes "history.

The conservatives have made a concerted effort to go through history books and rewrite history from a more "conservative" point of view. The intention is not to provide students with facts to allow them to make up their own minds as to what policies work but rather to indoctrinate students into believing conservatives dogma.

This is why Americans are falling further and further behind the rest of the world academically. You don't want people with critical thinking capabilities, you want preprogrammed voters.

Conservatives have gone through history books to correct errors and give a more accurate understanding of the past. Only propagandists object to re-examining our understanding of the past.

If anyone is indoctrinating students, it's those who whine about "revisionist" history. Propaganda doesn't work when people have access to all the evidence.

 

[Dragonlady]

There is no evidence at all, that consumer protection laws are better in other countries. You just made that up.

Well again, companies are going to invest where they can get the biggest returns on investment.

If I am going to open a lemonade stand, and I can open it here in Hilliard, or across the road in Columbus, with the difference being that Columbus has a 5% lower tax rate.... where am I going to open the stand? In Columbus. (literally the city limit is the road my home sits on, so I can cross the street, and pay less tax).

Well, the bigger the company, and the bigger the dollar amount of investment, the bigger difference that tax rate makes.

If I'm going to invest hundreds of millions into a project, and have a proposed net profit of $50 Million a year.... which place do you want that investment? In a country with a 40% tax rate, or 20% tax rate? Do you want to lose $10 Million in taxes, or $20 Million?

The left-winger keep complaining that companies invest overseas... that companies are not bringing money back to invest in the US.......... DUR!!! Wonder why???

It's pretty obvious to those of us on the right. I guess being able to do basic math is advantage over the left.

The US has very weak consumer protection laws because of the belief that the market will take care of it, and if a consumer is injured, they can always sue. Of course consumer's can't really sue for small things because it's too expensive. The use of legal remedies is now only open to the wealthy. The process is too expensive to handle small matters, and the average citizen doesn't have the money to pay for it. Most small matters are now addressed by class action suits but there has to be sufficient numbers of injured parties to make it worthwhile. If Joe the Plumber, screws up your plumbing job, and you've already paid him, you have to rely on his honesty to reimburse it or fix it. Even small claims court is too complex for most individuals to take it on themselves.


If you only choose to open your business where the taxes are lower, why not do so in one of the Middle Eastern Countries where they have no income taxes at all?

 

[Dragonlady]

Conservatives have gone through history books to correct errors and give a more accurate understanding of the past. Only propagandists object to re-examining our understanding of the past.

If anyone is indoctrinating students, it's those who whine about "revisionist" history. Propaganda doesn't work when people have access to all the evidence.

Yes, that's why they sanitizing history books of slavery, and the Indian Wars, and other things that "makes American look bad". Every country has good and bad things in their past. It is essential that today's students learn from past mistakes in order to avoid repeating them.

Clearly Republicans are in need of this because Bush II did many of the same stupid things that lead to the first Great Depressions, and *gasp*, it happened again.

 

[Staidhup]

If BS thinks Scandinavia is so great why doesn't he and his cadre of liberal elitists pack their bags and migrate!
This country was founded by people that detested the cronyism and class structure of Europe, built a country founded on the premise that the government is of the people not the people of the government, predicated upon on unrestricted freedom. As Alexis Tocqueville once said "Nothing is more wonderful that the art of being free, but nothing is harder to learn then how to use freedom." I guess Bernie thinks and views government as supreme to individual freedom. Figures, what else would you expect from an status liberal.

 

[Staidhup]

Apparently the Dragonlady fails to understand the power of the free market to punish and reward. But then again without her premise of supreme government control GM and others would have been dissolved which would have hurt her dear unionists and incompetent political neophytes. But then again whats wrong with cronyism and a group of politicians picking winners and losers, hell that would require accountability, and that doesn't buy votes.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Conservatives: rewriting history to serve their agenda.

That would be the right wing.

Just like the left wing.

It has nothing to do with conservatives or liberals.

 

[Andylusion]

There is no evidence at all, that consumer protection laws are better in other countries. You just made that up.

Well again, companies are going to invest where they can get the biggest returns on investment.

If I am going to open a lemonade stand, and I can open it here in Hilliard, or across the road in Columbus, with the difference being that Columbus has a 5% lower tax rate.... where am I going to open the stand? In Columbus. (literally the city limit is the road my home sits on, so I can cross the street, and pay less tax).

Well, the bigger the company, and the bigger the dollar amount of investment, the bigger difference that tax rate makes.

If I'm going to invest hundreds of millions into a project, and have a proposed net profit of $50 Million a year.... which place do you want that investment? In a country with a 40% tax rate, or 20% tax rate? Do you want to lose $10 Million in taxes, or $20 Million?

The left-winger keep complaining that companies invest overseas... that companies are not bringing money back to invest in the US.......... DUR!!! Wonder why???

It's pretty obvious to those of us on the right. I guess being able to do basic math is advantage over the left.

The US has very weak consumer protection laws because of the belief that the market will take care of it, and if a consumer is injured, they can always sue. Of course consumer's can't really sue for small things because it's too expensive. The use of legal remedies is now only open to the wealthy. The process is too expensive to handle small matters, and the average citizen doesn't have the money to pay for it. Most small matters are now addressed by class action suits but there has to be sufficient numbers of injured parties to make it worthwhile. If Joe the Plumber, screws up your plumbing job, and you've already paid him, you have to rely on his honesty to reimburse it or fix it. Even small claims court is too complex for most individuals to take it on themselves.


If you only choose to open your business where the taxes are lower, why not do so in one of the Middle Eastern Countries where they have no income taxes at all?

Name the weak consumer protection laws.
You have my interest on this. Which ones compared to other countries, are weak?

Consumers can't sue for small things in other countries either.

First, I wouldn't randomly hire a "joe the plumber" without knowing enough of his history and other clients, to know if Joe is any good.

Second, are you suggesting that in other countries, it never happens that people hire Joe the Plumber, and he screws stuff up, and disappears?

Besides that, the biggest reason we have such problems, is because the left has been teaching our children for decades, that right and wrong is all relative. You people teach there is no absolute truth, and relative morality, and then complain bitterly when bankers on Wall St live out the philosophy YOU taught them.

Lastly, we do open business in middle east countries. Tons of business.

That said.... there is more to it that only low taxes. I had assumed this didn't need explained to you.

Stability. If the government is unstable, or the population unstable, then investing in a country is more risky.
Say Venezuela for example, and the government is left-wing socialist, and tends to nationalize business in the country. Are you going to invest there? Even if the taxes might be lower? Not a chance. Then the left-wingers in Venezuela complain the economy sucks, and there are power outages. Dur... yeah. No one is going to invest and risk a government decry that they own your business now.

Crime and violence is another issue. Yeah, you might have low taxes in Kenya for example, but there's a high risk your people will be shot. If you have to also spend millions on armed security, fences and cameras.... well duh... whatever money you saved on taxes, you lost on spending on security.

We see that in inner-cite urban areas in the US. The left-winger complain bitterly that business refuses to invest in low-income areas, but refuse to deal with the crime (because that's racists). Hello.... there's a connection.

And lastly, the Corporate Tax, is a massively bigger problem than Income Tax. Income tax is avoidable. You do know that Warren Buffet does not, and has never paid the top marginal tax rate.... right? Warren Buffet only earns $100,000 a year in cash income. He has never paid the 30% to 40% top marginal income tax rate.

Most wealthy people, earn the majority of their wealth from stocks. The same system can be used in any other high income tax country.

This is how Olav Thon of Norway, has a net worth of $6 Billion dollars. He own a real estate company, that has a total portfolio of 450 properties, and over 50 hotels.

Most of his wealth is tied up in capital investments... not money. Thus he doesn't pay the income tax on that income, but rather the capital gains tax, which is only 30%, instead of the 56% on income.

And of course, just like the US, there are many deductions.

But Corporate tax is an entirely different beast. First there really are not a ton of corporate tax deductions, unless you lobby for a specific dedication to be added. Which then you people on the left complain about... but you setup the whole thing with your high tax rates. That's your fault.

But corporate taxes are huge. Take Walmart, according to their 2015 Annual report. They had a total income of $25 Billion.

Their US tax burden was $7 Billion dollars. Their International Tax burden was only $1.5 Billion.

Then you wonder why they are investing more and more internationally? You think Walmart could open quite a few more stores, and create thousands of new jobs, with an extra $3.5 Billion dollars to invest with, if the tax rate in the US was cut in half?

You think that having $3.5 Billion more in revenue might make those stock prices go up a bit? Yeah.

That boost from higher share and dividends will more than offset paying a bit more in personal income tax.

 

[bripat9643]

Conservatives have gone through history books to correct errors and give a more accurate understanding of the past. Only propagandists object to re-examining our understanding of the past.

If anyone is indoctrinating students, it's those who whine about "revisionist" history. Propaganda doesn't work when people have access to all the evidence.

Yes, that's why they sanitizing history books of slavery, and the Indian Wars, and other things that "makes American look bad". Every country has good and bad things in their past. It is essential that today's students learn from past mistakes in order to avoid repeating them.

Clearly Republicans are in need of this because Bush II did many of the same stupid things that lead to the first Great Depressions, and *gasp*, it happened again.

They don't do that, so your accusation is groundless. If anything, precisely the opposite is the case.

 

[bripat9643]

Every public school is a socialist government collective. That's precisely what's wrong with them.

The pupils of the socialist collective schools won WW2 and put a man on the moon for example. They can't be all that bad.

Conservative American engineers and businessmen won WW II and put a man on the moon. However, WW II was just one fascist country fighting another fascist country.

How do you know the engineers were conservatives? These businessmens' asses were saved by FDR and his socialist policies. And FDR was in charge during WW2.

Turds like you keep claiming businessmen are all conservatives, don't you? American business saved FDR's ass, not the other way around.

Do some reading about the situation the country was in when FDR won the election. Why are you starting with the vulgarity?

They were in that situation only because of imbecile scumbags like FDR and Hoover. FDR didn't solve the problem. He made it worse.

 

[Andylusion]

Conservatives have gone through history books to correct errors and give a more accurate understanding of the past. Only propagandists object to re-examining our understanding of the past.

If anyone is indoctrinating students, it's those who whine about "revisionist" history. Propaganda doesn't work when people have access to all the evidence.

Yes, that's why they sanitizing history books of slavery, and the Indian Wars, and other things that "makes American look bad". Every country has good and bad things in their past. It is essential that today's students learn from past mistakes in order to avoid repeating them.

Clearly Republicans are in need of this because Bush II did many of the same stupid things that lead to the first Great Depressions, and *gasp*, it happened again.

I don't think dwelling on the mistakes of the past does anything to prevent those mistakes from happening again.

In fact... I would suggest that doing so causes the very reverse.

Take China and Japan for example. China for decades had no issue with Japan. They pretty much ignored the past, and moved forward. Similarly Japan also acknowledged what they had done, but largely moved on, and ignored it.

Today, China has been hyping how awful the Japanese were during the war, and the Japanese have gotten so tired of this, they have rejected their pacifism, and are now in the process of rebuilding a conventional standing military, and navy.

When you demonize people for every error that someone 100 years ago did... eventually they stop caring about it, and become hostile.

We see this today in America. I've seen more race hatred on the forum over the last 3 years, than I saw in the previous decade. Dwelling on the racism of the past, has resulted in more and more racism in the present.

 

[Dragonlady]

That's not true though. The I-9 and identification is required to get a job, and a drivers license.

The problem is, it's easy to get fake identification.

There is just no possible way that the government could check the identification of 142 Million jobs across the entire country. And even if they did... it still wouldn't work. There are too many under-the-table jobs. I used to work for a parts store here, and there were a group of Mexicans who would walk in, buy stuff, and pay with all cash, all covered in grease and oil from head to foot. It was a back yard repair shop, run by illegals. They hired illegals, and lived fixing cars. Good group of guys honestly.

But how exactly would you propose we stop that? The entire business operated cash only. No banks accounts, no electronic transfers. Of course no IRS forms, or Social Security payments. And obviously no I-9s to turn in.

What is your solution?

The government doesn't check the ID's, that's up to employers. And they can check online whether or not the ID is valid and matches the individual providing it. All payments to employees must be made to the person named on the ID. You can't open a bank account or get a phone without government issued photo ID.

There are individuals who operate all cash businesses, and you're always going to have some cheaters (people overstaying student or visitor visas can be an issue). But those things won't get you a SIN card and without a valid SIN you can't apply for credit, buy a house, or get health insurance, welfare or other government services.

I understand that there are issues with your SSN records and that's unfortunate. Ours are in great shape.

What Americans don't seem to realize or accept, is that the current situation didn't happen in a vacuum. Having millions of workers submitting withholding taxes they can never collect benefits on is a tremendous boon to your government programs. The cheap labour pool keeps the cost of legal labour down because if Americans are unwilling to work for the money offered, an illegal worker will be happy for the work.

I saw some studies a few years ago that said that illegals contribute far more to the government by way of withholding taxes, than they cost in government services, and that includes the costs of schooling for their children. Simple logic says that no one would allow 11 million illegals in without doing something, if somebody wasn't making a shitload of money letting it happen. The idea that illegals are flooding across the border in these numbers without the consent of governments and business, is just ludicrous.

 

[Andylusion]

That's not true though. The I-9 and identification is required to get a job, and a drivers license.

The problem is, it's easy to get fake identification.

There is just no possible way that the government could check the identification of 142 Million jobs across the entire country. And even if they did... it still wouldn't work. There are too many under-the-table jobs. I used to work for a parts store here, and there were a group of Mexicans who would walk in, buy stuff, and pay with all cash, all covered in grease and oil from head to foot. It was a back yard repair shop, run by illegals. They hired illegals, and lived fixing cars. Good group of guys honestly.

But how exactly would you propose we stop that? The entire business operated cash only. No banks accounts, no electronic transfers. Of course no IRS forms, or Social Security payments. And obviously no I-9s to turn in.

What is your solution?

The government doesn't check the ID's, that's up to employers. And they can check online whether or not the ID is valid and matches the individual providing it. All payments to employees must be made to the person named on the ID. You can't open a bank account or get a phone without government issued photo ID.

There are individuals who operate all cash businesses, and you're always going to have some cheaters (people overstaying student or visitor visas can be an issue). But those things won't get you a SIN card and without a valid SIN you can't apply for credit, buy a house, or get health insurance, welfare or other government services.

I understand that there are issues with your SSN records and that's unfortunate. Ours are in great shape.

What Americans don't seem to realize or accept, is that the current situation didn't happen in a vacuum. Having millions of workers submitting withholding taxes they can never collect benefits on is a tremendous boon to your government programs. The cheap labour pool keeps the cost of legal labour down because if Americans are unwilling to work for the money offered, an illegal worker will be happy for the work.

I saw some studies a few years ago that said that illegals contribute far more to the government by way of withholding taxes, than they cost in government services, and that includes the costs of schooling for their children. Simple logic says that no one would allow 11 million illegals in without doing something, if somebody wasn't making a shitload of money letting it happen. The idea that illegals are flooding across the border in these numbers without the consent of governments and business, is just ludicrous.

Those studies are garbage. It's like trying to document the black market. If you knew how much was where, the police would go and get it. Thus they are not going to allow you to document it.

There is no validated information on how much social benefits illegals collect, verse how much in taxes they pay, that they don't collect. For example, they do collect social payments when they can. If they use a false ID to pay taxes, they can use the same false ID to collect unemployment compensation.

Research that shows otherwise, is normally based on estimates, based on estimates, based on estimates. In other words, it's junk. If legal citizens can collect food stamps, while having millions of dollars..... don't tell me an illegal can't. Gaming the system is wide spread among citizens and non-citizens alike. There is a reason that SSI is going to Puerto Rico, which isn't even a state.

And the Surveys of this are even less believable. Think about it.... are you as an illegal, more or less likely to tell people you pay taxes for benefits you do not receive, or that you are collecting benefits you are not allowed to get? Why anyone would be shocked that few would admit to the latter over the former, is beyond me.

Yeah, the government doesn't check the IDs, because they can't. Checking and validating each and every single ID for 142 Million jobs, every year, would be impossible. And still people would easily get through, if they did.

Now my solution is two things....

First, I honestly don't care if illegals get out more than they pay in, or pay in more than they get out. I truly don't care either way.

The solution there is.... eliminate the welfare state. Then it doesn't matter. No welfare, food stamps, section 8, and on and on... and then we don't care what they do. I am just as pissed off at legal citizens collection hand outs from the tax payers, as anyone else.

Second, all Illegals should be imprisoned or deported, not because of whether they do, or do not do a job we may or may not want, or whether they get social benefits or not.

They should be imprisoned or deported because.... THEY ARE ILLEGAL. We are nation of laws. Our laws must be respected, or you don't get to live here.

That said...... I think immigration should be easier and quicker. Everyone who has followed the law, should have a quick painless (other than the fees) method for becoming legal citizens.

But the left doesn't want either of those. That's the irony. They don't want to fully enforce the law, and deport people breaking the law... but they also don't want to change it so they can be legal citizens. Either of those would fix the problem. But leftist LIKE having problems. Problems and complaints and issues, are what they run on. It's how they bribe people to vote for them.

Bill Clinton ran on fixing the illegal immigration.... did he fix it? No. Obama ran on fixing illegal immigration. Did he fix it? No. Got both of them a ton of votes though.

Of course Republicans have ignored it.... which hasn't helped either.

 

[Dragonlady]

I strongly disagree about the elimination of the social safety net. A capitalist system is subject to boom and bust cycles which result in job losses and financial hardship for lower income workers. It is essential to the system to have protections built in for the downturns to protect the most vulnerable.

Lack of social assistance leads to higher crime rates and in a country as wealthy as the US would lead to serious social unrest. Even the Romans knew that bread and circuses were necessary to keep the headcount from turning on the aristocracy.

I find the US administration of social programs to be unnecessarily expensive. You have one program for housing, another for food stamps, another for welfare and another for Medicaid. That's four different programs to provide necessities to one family.

All these applications require a review, means tests, and verifications, before approval. Administration eats up a lot of funds. If the process was streamlined, administration costs would be reduced, as would the overall costs of these programs.

Part of the problem seems to be that the funding comes from different levels of government. Welfare is municipal (?), food stamps and Medicaid are federal, and housing is what? State?

There has to be a better way.