Bernie: Communist, Socialist, Liberal, or Progressive?

[Dovahkiin]

Socialism has nothing to do with the government. It has everything to do with the populace owning the "means of production." I disagree with this and find it to be silly, but a quick examination of the history of socialism leads to my conclusion.

Did you know this?

1.Michael Harrington, founder of the Democratic Socialists of America, the DSA., knew that infiltration of the Democratic Party was primary, and it already contained all of the progressive elements The Eduard Bernstein Internet Archive

Socialism time line. The DSA remains the principle branch of the Socialist International, whose primary goal is global governance under worldwide socialism.

a. The SI boasts it is successor to the First International of Karl Marx, 1864. “Ever since its inception in 1951, the Socialist International has made cosmetic efforts to distance itself from communist socialists.”
Congressional Socialists No Longer in the Marxist Closet 1

and

The Grasp of Socialist International


2. "#WeNeedBernie

Senator Bernie Sanders (I-VT) has announced that he is officially running as a candidate for President in 2016 to further a desperately needed political revolution in the USA.

Senator Sanders is a lifelong champion of the public programs and democratic rights that empower working class people. His candidacy could help expand both the progressive movement and the democratic socialist voice within that movement." #WeNeedBernie

The KKK endorsed Trump, does that make trump a white supremacist? Of course not.

The KKK???

This KKK?
Liberal historian Eric Foner writes that the Klan was “…a military force serving the interests of the Democratic Party…” Foner, “Reconstruction: America’s Unfinished Revolution, 1863-1877,” p. 425


The very same KKK that Franklin Roosevelt looked to for his very first Supreme Court nominee, Hugo Black???
"... Black was head of new members for the largest Klan cell in the South. New members of the KKK had to pledge their allegiance to the “eternal separation of Church and State.”... Separation was a crucial part of the KKK’s jurisprudential agenda. It was included in the Klansman’s Creed..."

http://egnorance.blogspot.com/2011/10/hugo-black-and-real-history-of-wall-of.html]



Didn't know that either, huh?

The majority of KKK members support the democrats? Since when?

Where did you find that in my post?

Oh....you made it up?


I didn't fabricate anything in my posts......you should learn from that.

You C&P nonsense that hasn't been relevant for decades. No one cares that a tiny party said some stuff about democrats.

 

[TNHarley]

LMAO whuut?

Where do you believe net financial assets in regards to the domestic private sector come from?

lol ok

I'll try to make it simple: Banks create money from thin air in regards to loans. An asset and a liability is created for both parties, the person getting the loan, and the bank. It nets to zero. Let's not forget that credit isn't exactly stable. Anyways, when the government runs a deficit, the money goes somewhere. Mostly to the domestic private sector. NET financial assets. The national "debt" actually represents financial assets in regards to the domestic private sector. Entities decide to park money at the fed in an interest earning savings account. (Treasury securities) (This actually is related to banks, when banks build up excess reserves, in order to prevent a loss of control of the determined interest rate, the fed moves the money in the banks reserve (some of it) to an interest bearing savings account at the fed. (Treasury security.)

Ok, so socialism = big govt.

How did you get that from my post? Once you understand that the private sector relies on the government to get net financial assets and bail various entities out, your whole world changes.

No it doesn't. Government doesn't just apply to one concept. That's preposterous.

 

[TNHarley]

Bernie is a social democrat, more to the right then the social democrats in other countries.

You must have missed this...

1. " [At] the University of Chicago,Sanders joined the Young People’s Socialist League, the youth wing of the Socialist Party USA. He also organized for a communist front,the United Packinghouse Workers Union, which at the time was under investigation by the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

2. ...graduating with a political science degree, Sanders moved to Vermont, wherehe headed the American People’s History Society, an organ for Marxist propaganda.There, he produced a glowing documentary on the life of socialist revolutionary Eugene Debs, who was jailed for espionage during the Red Scare and hailed by the Bolsheviks as “America’s greatest Marxist.”Don’t be fooled by Bernie Sanders — he’s a diehard communist | New York Post

That all happened many years ago. I can show you reagan's liberal past.

‘Michael Harrington, co-chairman of the Democratic Socialists of America and author of ''The Other America,'' which helped to encourage the Federal Government's War on Poverty,… Mr. Harrington was probably the most visible spokesman for Socialist ideals in the United States. He often served as the American representative at international Democratic Socialist meetings….he outlined a socialist future that could create a new, progressive society. He said that it must be international; that tax policies should redistribute wealth and increase growth without ''takeover games''; that real control must come from below, and that ''the inexorable socialization of the entire planet'' can become ''the tool, rather than the oppressor, of free women and men.''

Asked in an interview how his brand of socialism differed from the system that had evolved in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, Mr. Harrington said:

''Put it this way. Marx was a democrat with a small d. The Democratic Socialists envision a humane social order based on popular control of resources and production, economic planning, equitable distribution, feminism and racial equality. I share an immediate program with liberals in this country because the best liberalism leads toward socialism. I'm a radical, but as I tell my students at Queens, I try not to soapbox. I want to be on the left wing of the possible.''’
Michael Harrington, Socialist and Author, Is Dead

I don't care about conspiracy theories. If democrats are such 'communists' why do they love promoting free trade? (Apart from a select few.)

Here's a coincidence for you to explain:

The contemporary Democrat Party stands for almost every aim of the communist party (CPUSA).

Shocker, huh?

I don't doubt that

 

[Dovahkiin]

Bernie is a social democrat, more to the right then the social democrats in other countries.

You must have missed this...

1. " [At] the University of Chicago,Sanders joined the Young People’s Socialist League, the youth wing of the Socialist Party USA. He also organized for a communist front,the United Packinghouse Workers Union, which at the time was under investigation by the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

2. ...graduating with a political science degree, Sanders moved to Vermont, wherehe headed the American People’s History Society, an organ for Marxist propaganda.There, he produced a glowing documentary on the life of socialist revolutionary Eugene Debs, who was jailed for espionage during the Red Scare and hailed by the Bolsheviks as “America’s greatest Marxist.”Don’t be fooled by Bernie Sanders — he’s a diehard communist | New York Post

That all happened many years ago. I can show you reagan's liberal past.

‘Michael Harrington, co-chairman of the Democratic Socialists of America and author of ''The Other America,'' which helped to encourage the Federal Government's War on Poverty,… Mr. Harrington was probably the most visible spokesman for Socialist ideals in the United States. He often served as the American representative at international Democratic Socialist meetings….he outlined a socialist future that could create a new, progressive society. He said that it must be international; that tax policies should redistribute wealth and increase growth without ''takeover games''; that real control must come from below, and that ''the inexorable socialization of the entire planet'' can become ''the tool, rather than the oppressor, of free women and men.''

Asked in an interview how his brand of socialism differed from the system that had evolved in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, Mr. Harrington said:

''Put it this way. Marx was a democrat with a small d. The Democratic Socialists envision a humane social order based on popular control of resources and production, economic planning, equitable distribution, feminism and racial equality. I share an immediate program with liberals in this country because the best liberalism leads toward socialism. I'm a radical, but as I tell my students at Queens, I try not to soapbox. I want to be on the left wing of the possible.''’
Michael Harrington, Socialist and Author, Is Dead

I don't care about conspiracy theories. If democrats are such 'communists' why do they love promoting free trade? (Apart from a select few.)

Here's a coincidence for you to explain:

The contemporary Democrat Party stands for almost every aim of the communist party (CPUSA).

Shocker, huh?

Do you find it surprising that the CPUSA is laughed at by communists? Go to reddit/rev left or any other left wing website.
Oh, do you find it surprising that neo nazi's agree with some of what trump wants? That doesn't make trump a neo nazi.
Anyways, onto your point. Can I have the list of things the cpusa stands for?

 

[Dovahkiin]

Where do you believe net financial assets in regards to the domestic private sector come from?

lol ok

I'll try to make it simple: Banks create money from thin air in regards to loans. An asset and a liability is created for both parties, the person getting the loan, and the bank. It nets to zero. Let's not forget that credit isn't exactly stable. Anyways, when the government runs a deficit, the money goes somewhere. Mostly to the domestic private sector. NET financial assets. The national "debt" actually represents financial assets in regards to the domestic private sector. Entities decide to park money at the fed in an interest earning savings account. (Treasury securities) (This actually is related to banks, when banks build up excess reserves, in order to prevent a loss of control of the determined interest rate, the fed moves the money in the banks reserve (some of it) to an interest bearing savings account at the fed. (Treasury security.)

Ok, so socialism = big govt.

How did you get that from my post? Once you understand that the private sector relies on the government to get net financial assets and bail various entities out, your whole world changes.

No it doesn't. Government doesn't just apply to one concept. That's preposterous.

Of course, government also applies to maintaining stability, controlling inflation, public sector management, etc, etc...

 

[PoliticalChic]

Bernie Sanders is a Democratic-Socialist. He is a good man and his brand of socialism is infinitely better than whatever a Trump presidency would bring

Greed ruined America's free market. Hate socialism, but our alternative is evil and not working

Let's review what Socialists are: Communists without guns.

In an article on socialism in the Encyclopedia Britannica, Prof. G. D. H. Cole, a leading theoretician and historian of the British Labor Party, declares: The distinction between socialism as distinguished by various Labor and Socialist parties of Europe and the New World, and communism, as represented by the Russians and minority parties in other countries is one of tactics-and-strategy rather than one of objective.

Communism is indeed only socialism pursued by revolutionary means and making its revolutionary method a canon of faith...."

 

[TNHarley]

"communism represented by the Russians" lol

 

[PoliticalChic]

You must have missed this...

1. " [At] the University of Chicago,Sanders joined the Young People’s Socialist League, the youth wing of the Socialist Party USA. He also organized for a communist front,the United Packinghouse Workers Union, which at the time was under investigation by the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

2. ...graduating with a political science degree, Sanders moved to Vermont, wherehe headed the American People’s History Society, an organ for Marxist propaganda.There, he produced a glowing documentary on the life of socialist revolutionary Eugene Debs, who was jailed for espionage during the Red Scare and hailed by the Bolsheviks as “America’s greatest Marxist.”Don’t be fooled by Bernie Sanders — he’s a diehard communist | New York Post

That all happened many years ago. I can show you reagan's liberal past.

‘Michael Harrington, co-chairman of the Democratic Socialists of America and author of ''The Other America,'' which helped to encourage the Federal Government's War on Poverty,… Mr. Harrington was probably the most visible spokesman for Socialist ideals in the United States. He often served as the American representative at international Democratic Socialist meetings….he outlined a socialist future that could create a new, progressive society. He said that it must be international; that tax policies should redistribute wealth and increase growth without ''takeover games''; that real control must come from below, and that ''the inexorable socialization of the entire planet'' can become ''the tool, rather than the oppressor, of free women and men.''

Asked in an interview how his brand of socialism differed from the system that had evolved in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, Mr. Harrington said:

''Put it this way. Marx was a democrat with a small d. The Democratic Socialists envision a humane social order based on popular control of resources and production, economic planning, equitable distribution, feminism and racial equality. I share an immediate program with liberals in this country because the best liberalism leads toward socialism. I'm a radical, but as I tell my students at Queens, I try not to soapbox. I want to be on the left wing of the possible.''’
Michael Harrington, Socialist and Author, Is Dead

I don't care about conspiracy theories. If democrats are such 'communists' why do they love promoting free trade? (Apart from a select few.)

Here's a coincidence for you to explain:

The contemporary Democrat Party stands for almost every aim of the communist party (CPUSA).

Shocker, huh?

Do you find it surprising that the CPUSA is laughed at by communists? Go to reddit/rev left or any other left wing website.
Oh, do you find it surprising that neo nazi's agree with some of what trump wants? That doesn't make trump a neo nazi.
Anyways, onto your point. Can I have the list of things the cpusa stands for?

Wise of you not to deny that the contemporary Democrat Party stands for almost every aim of the communist party (CPUSA).

 

[kaz]

The Republican meltdown has allowed Bernie access to the mainstream and helped the Democrats move the country left.

Call him what you will, he's been pretty successful.
.

He's a hit with the "give me free shit" crowd....that and the uneducated

Ooooh, ooooh...I know the joke to use here......

So you're a Bernie supporter I take it?

How did I do?

Maybe you could give us thoroughly well thought through policy focused on effective real world solutions that are guaranteed to work like you usually do. You know, like your positions on:

Hunger: You're against it

Crime: You're against it

Responsible government: You're for it

You know, like that

 

[PoliticalChic]

Did you know this?

1.Michael Harrington, founder of the Democratic Socialists of America, the DSA., knew that infiltration of the Democratic Party was primary, and it already contained all of the progressive elements The Eduard Bernstein Internet Archive

Socialism time line. The DSA remains the principle branch of the Socialist International, whose primary goal is global governance under worldwide socialism.

a. The SI boasts it is successor to the First International of Karl Marx, 1864. “Ever since its inception in 1951, the Socialist International has made cosmetic efforts to distance itself from communist socialists.”
Congressional Socialists No Longer in the Marxist Closet 1

and

The Grasp of Socialist International


2. "#WeNeedBernie

Senator Bernie Sanders (I-VT) has announced that he is officially running as a candidate for President in 2016 to further a desperately needed political revolution in the USA.

Senator Sanders is a lifelong champion of the public programs and democratic rights that empower working class people. His candidacy could help expand both the progressive movement and the democratic socialist voice within that movement." #WeNeedBernie

The KKK endorsed Trump, does that make trump a white supremacist? Of course not.

The KKK???

This KKK?
Liberal historian Eric Foner writes that the Klan was “…a military force serving the interests of the Democratic Party…” Foner, “Reconstruction: America’s Unfinished Revolution, 1863-1877,” p. 425


The very same KKK that Franklin Roosevelt looked to for his very first Supreme Court nominee, Hugo Black???
"... Black was head of new members for the largest Klan cell in the South. New members of the KKK had to pledge their allegiance to the “eternal separation of Church and State.”... Separation was a crucial part of the KKK’s jurisprudential agenda. It was included in the Klansman’s Creed..."

http://egnorance.blogspot.com/2011/10/hugo-black-and-real-history-of-wall-of.html]



Didn't know that either, huh?

The majority of KKK members support the democrats? Since when?

Where did you find that in my post?

Oh....you made it up?


I didn't fabricate anything in my posts......you should learn from that.

You C&P nonsense that hasn't been relevant for decades. No one cares that a tiny party said some stuff about democrats.

Nonsense?
Let's see you deny any of it....

 

[Dovahkiin]

That all happened many years ago. I can show you reagan's liberal past.

‘Michael Harrington, co-chairman of the Democratic Socialists of America and author of ''The Other America,'' which helped to encourage the Federal Government's War on Poverty,… Mr. Harrington was probably the most visible spokesman for Socialist ideals in the United States. He often served as the American representative at international Democratic Socialist meetings….he outlined a socialist future that could create a new, progressive society. He said that it must be international; that tax policies should redistribute wealth and increase growth without ''takeover games''; that real control must come from below, and that ''the inexorable socialization of the entire planet'' can become ''the tool, rather than the oppressor, of free women and men.''

Asked in an interview how his brand of socialism differed from the system that had evolved in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, Mr. Harrington said:

''Put it this way. Marx was a democrat with a small d. The Democratic Socialists envision a humane social order based on popular control of resources and production, economic planning, equitable distribution, feminism and racial equality. I share an immediate program with liberals in this country because the best liberalism leads toward socialism. I'm a radical, but as I tell my students at Queens, I try not to soapbox. I want to be on the left wing of the possible.''’
Michael Harrington, Socialist and Author, Is Dead

I don't care about conspiracy theories. If democrats are such 'communists' why do they love promoting free trade? (Apart from a select few.)

Here's a coincidence for you to explain:

The contemporary Democrat Party stands for almost every aim of the communist party (CPUSA).

Shocker, huh?

Do you find it surprising that the CPUSA is laughed at by communists? Go to reddit/rev left or any other left wing website.
Oh, do you find it surprising that neo nazi's agree with some of what trump wants? That doesn't make trump a neo nazi.
Anyways, onto your point. Can I have the list of things the cpusa stands for?

Wise of you not to deny that the contemporary Democrat Party stands for almost every aim of the communist party (CPUSA).

I'll ask again: Can I have the list of things the cpusa claims to stand for?

 

[Super_Lantern]

I respect you as a person OP. People shouldn't be attacking you in this thread, but it's not 1960 anymore and America's free market has failed us. If you are against socialism, be against it. I still think our alternative is evil. I also think Bernie Sanders is the most caring candidate running when it comes to empathy for the American people

 

[kaz]

That all happened many years ago. I can show you reagan's liberal past.

‘Michael Harrington, co-chairman of the Democratic Socialists of America and author of ''The Other America,'' which helped to encourage the Federal Government's War on Poverty,… Mr. Harrington was probably the most visible spokesman for Socialist ideals in the United States. He often served as the American representative at international Democratic Socialist meetings….he outlined a socialist future that could create a new, progressive society. He said that it must be international; that tax policies should redistribute wealth and increase growth without ''takeover games''; that real control must come from below, and that ''the inexorable socialization of the entire planet'' can become ''the tool, rather than the oppressor, of free women and men.''

Asked in an interview how his brand of socialism differed from the system that had evolved in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, Mr. Harrington said:

''Put it this way. Marx was a democrat with a small d. The Democratic Socialists envision a humane social order based on popular control of resources and production, economic planning, equitable distribution, feminism and racial equality. I share an immediate program with liberals in this country because the best liberalism leads toward socialism. I'm a radical, but as I tell my students at Queens, I try not to soapbox. I want to be on the left wing of the possible.''’
Michael Harrington, Socialist and Author, Is Dead

I don't care about conspiracy theories. If democrats are such 'communists' why do they love promoting free trade? (Apart from a select few.)

Here's a coincidence for you to explain:

The contemporary Democrat Party stands for almost every aim of the communist party (CPUSA).

Shocker, huh?

Do you find it surprising that the CPUSA is laughed at by communists? Go to reddit/rev left or any other left wing website.
Oh, do you find it surprising that neo nazi's agree with some of what trump wants? That doesn't make trump a neo nazi.
Anyways, onto your point. Can I have the list of things the cpusa stands for?

Wise of you not to deny that the contemporary Democrat Party stands for almost every aim of the communist party (CPUSA).

More directly their Democrat party planks directly mirror the Communist manifesto

 

[Dovahkiin]

Bernie Sanders is a Democratic-Socialist. He is a good man and his brand of socialism is infinitely better than whatever a Trump presidency would bring

Greed ruined America's free market. Hate socialism, but our alternative is evil and not working

Let's review what Socialists are: Communists without guns.

In an article on socialism in the Encyclopedia Britannica, Prof. G. D. H. Cole, a leading theoretician and historian of the British Labor Party, declares: The distinction between socialism as distinguished by various Labor and Socialist parties of Europe and the New World, and communism, as represented by the Russians and minority parties in other countries is one of tactics-and-strategy rather than one of objective.

Communism is indeed only socialism pursued by revolutionary means and making its revolutionary method a canon of faith...."

Communism is a situation, taking definitions commonly found, where a "stateless, classless, moneyless society" exists. Socialism simply involves collective ownership of production.

 

[Dovahkiin]

‘Michael Harrington, co-chairman of the Democratic Socialists of America and author of ''The Other America,'' which helped to encourage the Federal Government's War on Poverty,… Mr. Harrington was probably the most visible spokesman for Socialist ideals in the United States. He often served as the American representative at international Democratic Socialist meetings….he outlined a socialist future that could create a new, progressive society. He said that it must be international; that tax policies should redistribute wealth and increase growth without ''takeover games''; that real control must come from below, and that ''the inexorable socialization of the entire planet'' can become ''the tool, rather than the oppressor, of free women and men.''

Asked in an interview how his brand of socialism differed from the system that had evolved in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, Mr. Harrington said:

''Put it this way. Marx was a democrat with a small d. The Democratic Socialists envision a humane social order based on popular control of resources and production, economic planning, equitable distribution, feminism and racial equality. I share an immediate program with liberals in this country because the best liberalism leads toward socialism. I'm a radical, but as I tell my students at Queens, I try not to soapbox. I want to be on the left wing of the possible.''’
Michael Harrington, Socialist and Author, Is Dead

I don't care about conspiracy theories. If democrats are such 'communists' why do they love promoting free trade? (Apart from a select few.)

Here's a coincidence for you to explain:

The contemporary Democrat Party stands for almost every aim of the communist party (CPUSA).

Shocker, huh?

Do you find it surprising that the CPUSA is laughed at by communists? Go to reddit/rev left or any other left wing website.
Oh, do you find it surprising that neo nazi's agree with some of what trump wants? That doesn't make trump a neo nazi.
Anyways, onto your point. Can I have the list of things the cpusa stands for?

Wise of you not to deny that the contemporary Democrat Party stands for almost every aim of the communist party (CPUSA).

More directly their Democrat party planks directly mirror the Communist manifesto

..And? Maybe the commies had some good ideas that can be applied without killing engine of prosperity. < ----- (Capitalism)

 

[kaz]

Bernie Sanders is a Democratic-Socialist. He is a good man and his brand of socialism is infinitely better than whatever a Trump presidency would bring

Greed ruined America's free market. Hate socialism, but our alternative is evil and not working

Let's review what Socialists are: Communists without guns.

In an article on socialism in the Encyclopedia Britannica, Prof. G. D. H. Cole, a leading theoretician and historian of the British Labor Party, declares: The distinction between socialism as distinguished by various Labor and Socialist parties of Europe and the New World, and communism, as represented by the Russians and minority parties in other countries is one of tactics-and-strategy rather than one of objective.

Communism is indeed only socialism pursued by revolutionary means and making its revolutionary method a canon of faith...."

Communism is a situation, taking definitions commonly found, where a "stateless, classless, moneyless society" exists. Socialism simply involves collective ownership of production.

Actually, it doesn't say it "exists," it is about that being the supposed goal. And the strategy is to go through the construction of totalitarian control of the society to create the right conditions. Then the expectation is that the politicians that wield that absolute power recognizing it's time will give all that up for the stateless society.

That's clearly the path the Democrats are following, and like all other "communists," they will never give up that power

 

[kaz]

I don't care about conspiracy theories. If democrats are such 'communists' why do they love promoting free trade? (Apart from a select few.)

Here's a coincidence for you to explain:

The contemporary Democrat Party stands for almost every aim of the communist party (CPUSA).

Shocker, huh?

Do you find it surprising that the CPUSA is laughed at by communists? Go to reddit/rev left or any other left wing website.
Oh, do you find it surprising that neo nazi's agree with some of what trump wants? That doesn't make trump a neo nazi.
Anyways, onto your point. Can I have the list of things the cpusa stands for?

Wise of you not to deny that the contemporary Democrat Party stands for almost every aim of the communist party (CPUSA).

More directly their Democrat party planks directly mirror the Communist manifesto

..And? Maybe the commies had some good ideas that can be applied without killing engine of prosperity. < ----- (Capitalism)

Right, because we can have a centrally planned economy with distributed decision making ...

 

[Londoner]

More propaganda from our resident Trotskyite

Sanders doesn't endorse communism nor even traditional socialism.

He is advocating for the kind of "managed capitalism" we had during the postwar years - before Reagan and Clinton dismantled welfare and handed regulatory control to big business. His tax rate doesn't come close to Eisenhower or Nixon's.

He is also looking to unwind the subsidy, bailout & monopoly system that has evolved under steroidal lobbying pressure and the dark money that flows into our elections. This will free up revenue to expand access to education and health care.

The OP needs to stop cutting-and-pasting oversimplified garbage. Why not learn the difference between someone who wants to end private property and someone who merely wants to bust up monopolies and direct subsidies to more than just large corporations.

When Reagan took office, he ended the subsidies and policies that helped middle class consumers. He also liberalized trade so the donor class could shift production to more profitable labor markets in freedom hating tyrannies. Indeed, he doubled down on handouts to the wealthy, and helped create a culture of no-bid contracts where Big Pharma now spends more money lobbying Republican politicians than on R&D.

Sanders wants to roll-back our post-Reagan version of capitalism where a narrow portion of wealthy elites receive all the gains, and the middle class is handed credit cards to make up for the prosperity that never trickled down.

His policies are FAR closer to Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy &Nixon than Karl Marx.

(Stop Lying)

 

[CrusaderFrank]

PoliticalChic is

a. a fascist
b. a cultural mccarthyite
c. both

Reactionary Jake can't control his reflexive response to defend Communists

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Oh look, another cut and paste job from PoliticalChic.

"Here is something someone else said, argue their point with me as if it were my own".

Translation: I have no response to any of her points yet feel an urge to say something...