Benefits of adding grades 13 and 14 to Secondary Ed.

[Moonglow]

Most communities have Jr. Colleges, which could incorporate such a two-year program, as well as a jumping off place for those who choose to transfer to a 4-year school.

THERE'S the path. K-12 has enough tasks on their plate. Get them out. Even EARLY out for trades, and specialty services. The Comm Colleges AND the trade schools that are making a comeback will do a better job.

If you live in a state that can afford subsidizing AA, AS degrees, like Tennessee just did --- even better.

And the message to the K-12 gulag is -- you better RAISE the expectations and shoot for getting kids to that "post secondary" level or you've failed them completely. Their lives are gonna depend on it...

Labor laws inhibit effective training in apprenticeship programs..

 

[Moonglow]

I would like to see them break away from the group paced model and use the individual paced model, allowing faster students to move on at an accelerated rate and let the ducks waddle with the ducks.. The open classroom model that started in the 1990's is not really working.

 

[flacaltenn]

Most communities have Jr. Colleges, which could incorporate such a two-year program, as well as a jumping off place for those who choose to transfer to a 4-year school.

THERE'S the path. K-12 has enough tasks on their plate. Get them out. Even EARLY out for trades, and specialty services. The Comm Colleges AND the trade schools that are making a comeback will do a better job.

If you live in a state that can afford subsidizing AA, AS degrees, like Tennessee just did --- even better.

And the message to the K-12 gulag is -- you better RAISE the expectations and shoot for getting kids to that "post secondary" level or you've failed them completely. Their lives are gonna depend on it...

Labor laws inhibit effective training in apprenticeship programs..

In some trades maybe. If the Union is picky. But Unions are not really concerned with careers. They only care about the definition of "the job". Don't give a **** about your ten year job role. That's why they are endangered. Because the definition of jobs changes YEARLY now. And you have to be more flexible. Do the data entry or reporting related to the job. Maybe even part of the material acquisition.

So screw them. Other than construction -- apprenticeships work fine and benefit both sides of the deal..

Kinda flaky that GOVT can have all the apprentices they want -- but make laws that prohibit it because it's predatory or not "fairly compensated". It's ON THE JOB TRAINING. Not employment in the strict sense.

If they unions didn't SQUEAL about it -- there wouldn't be so many laws.

 

[Moonglow]

Most communities have Jr. Colleges, which could incorporate such a two-year program, as well as a jumping off place for those who choose to transfer to a 4-year school.

THERE'S the path. K-12 has enough tasks on their plate. Get them out. Even EARLY out for trades, and specialty services. The Comm Colleges AND the trade schools that are making a comeback will do a better job.

If you live in a state that can afford subsidizing AA, AS degrees, like Tennessee just did --- even better.

And the message to the K-12 gulag is -- you better RAISE the expectations and shoot for getting kids to that "post secondary" level or you've failed them completely. Their lives are gonna depend on it...

Labor laws inhibit effective training in apprenticeship programs..

In some trades maybe. If the Union is picky. But Unions are not really concerned with careers. They only care about the definition of "the job". Don't give a **** about your ten year job role. That's why they are endangered. Because the definition of jobs changes YEARLY now. And you have to be more flexible. Do the data entry or reporting related to the job. Maybe even part of the material acquisition.

So screw them. Other than construction -- apprenticeships work fine and benefit both sides of the deal..

Kinda flaky that GOVT can have all the apprentices they want -- but make laws that prohibit it because it's predatory or not "fairly compensated". It's ON THE JOB TRAINING. Not employment in the strict sense.

If they unions didn't SQUEAL about it -- there wouldn't be so many laws.

It's the operation of equipment with moving parts that are restricted to kids 16-18.

 

[JoeMoma]

Most communities have Jr. Colleges, which could incorporate such a two-year program, as well as a jumping off place for those who choose to transfer to a 4-year school.

THERE'S the path. K-12 has enough tasks on their plate. Get them out. Even EARLY out for trades, and specialty services. The Comm Colleges AND the trade schools that are making a comeback will do a better job.

If you live in a state that can afford subsidizing AA, AS degrees, like Tennessee just did --- even better.

And the message to the K-12 gulag is -- you better RAISE the expectations and shoot for getting kids to that "post secondary" level or you've failed them completely. Their lives are gonna depend on it...

Labor laws inhibit effective training in apprenticeship programs..

In some trades maybe. If the Union is picky. But Unions are not really concerned with careers. They only care about the definition of "the job". Don't give a **** about your ten year job role. That's why they are endangered. Because the definition of jobs changes YEARLY now. And you have to be more flexible. Do the data entry or reporting related to the job. Maybe even part of the material acquisition.

So screw them. Other than construction -- apprenticeships work fine and benefit both sides of the deal..

Kinda flaky that GOVT can have all the apprentices they want -- but make laws that prohibit it because it's predatory or not "fairly compensated". It's ON THE JOB TRAINING. Not employment in the strict sense.

If they unions didn't SQUEAL about it -- there wouldn't be so many laws.

Some kids would learn a hell of a lot more from a free 4 year apprenticeship than a very expensive 4 year degree.

 

[Moonglow]

Most communities have Jr. Colleges, which could incorporate such a two-year program, as well as a jumping off place for those who choose to transfer to a 4-year school.

THERE'S the path. K-12 has enough tasks on their plate. Get them out. Even EARLY out for trades, and specialty services. The Comm Colleges AND the trade schools that are making a comeback will do a better job.

If you live in a state that can afford subsidizing AA, AS degrees, like Tennessee just did --- even better.

And the message to the K-12 gulag is -- you better RAISE the expectations and shoot for getting kids to that "post secondary" level or you've failed them completely. Their lives are gonna depend on it...

Labor laws inhibit effective training in apprenticeship programs..

In some trades maybe. If the Union is picky. But Unions are not really concerned with careers. They only care about the definition of "the job". Don't give a **** about your ten year job role. That's why they are endangered. Because the definition of jobs changes YEARLY now. And you have to be more flexible. Do the data entry or reporting related to the job. Maybe even part of the material acquisition.

So screw them. Other than construction -- apprenticeships work fine and benefit both sides of the deal..

Kinda flaky that GOVT can have all the apprentices they want -- but make laws that prohibit it because it's predatory or not "fairly compensated". It's ON THE JOB TRAINING. Not employment in the strict sense.

If they unions didn't SQUEAL about it -- there wouldn't be so many laws.

Some kids would learn a hell of a lot more from a free 4 year apprenticeship than a very expensive 4 year degree.

I never did like the way that corporations threw away OJT for a degree.

 

[flacaltenn]

Most communities have Jr. Colleges, which could incorporate such a two-year program, as well as a jumping off place for those who choose to transfer to a 4-year school.

THERE'S the path. K-12 has enough tasks on their plate. Get them out. Even EARLY out for trades, and specialty services. The Comm Colleges AND the trade schools that are making a comeback will do a better job.

If you live in a state that can afford subsidizing AA, AS degrees, like Tennessee just did --- even better.

And the message to the K-12 gulag is -- you better RAISE the expectations and shoot for getting kids to that "post secondary" level or you've failed them completely. Their lives are gonna depend on it...

Labor laws inhibit effective training in apprenticeship programs..

In some trades maybe. If the Union is picky. But Unions are not really concerned with careers. They only care about the definition of "the job". Don't give a **** about your ten year job role. That's why they are endangered. Because the definition of jobs changes YEARLY now. And you have to be more flexible. Do the data entry or reporting related to the job. Maybe even part of the material acquisition.

So screw them. Other than construction -- apprenticeships work fine and benefit both sides of the deal..

Kinda flaky that GOVT can have all the apprentices they want -- but make laws that prohibit it because it's predatory or not "fairly compensated". It's ON THE JOB TRAINING. Not employment in the strict sense.

If they unions didn't SQUEAL about it -- there wouldn't be so many laws.

It's the operation of equipment with moving parts that are restricted to kids 16-18.

Don't you watch Gold Rush. Parker was 14 when he worked his Grandpa's gold mine in Alaska. And they have labor laws. Now he runs $8Mill a year as a 20 yr old as a mine boss. Not sure it has a LOT to do with age in farming either. Not for family. If the govt wants to be stupid about it and think they are "protecting" children with apprentice age restrictions, I'll just say -- letting a unfocused 16 yr old run an excavator highly supervised just might be an experience that will save his economic ass for life.

 

[Moonglow]

Most communities have Jr. Colleges, which could incorporate such a two-year program, as well as a jumping off place for those who choose to transfer to a 4-year school.

THERE'S the path. K-12 has enough tasks on their plate. Get them out. Even EARLY out for trades, and specialty services. The Comm Colleges AND the trade schools that are making a comeback will do a better job.

If you live in a state that can afford subsidizing AA, AS degrees, like Tennessee just did --- even better.

And the message to the K-12 gulag is -- you better RAISE the expectations and shoot for getting kids to that "post secondary" level or you've failed them completely. Their lives are gonna depend on it...

Labor laws inhibit effective training in apprenticeship programs..

In some trades maybe. If the Union is picky. But Unions are not really concerned with careers. They only care about the definition of "the job". Don't give a **** about your ten year job role. That's why they are endangered. Because the definition of jobs changes YEARLY now. And you have to be more flexible. Do the data entry or reporting related to the job. Maybe even part of the material acquisition.

So screw them. Other than construction -- apprenticeships work fine and benefit both sides of the deal..

Kinda flaky that GOVT can have all the apprentices they want -- but make laws that prohibit it because it's predatory or not "fairly compensated". It's ON THE JOB TRAINING. Not employment in the strict sense.

If they unions didn't SQUEAL about it -- there wouldn't be so many laws.

It's the operation of equipment with moving parts that are restricted to kids 16-18.

Don't you watch Gold Rush. Parker was 14 when he worked his Grandpa's gold mine in Alaska. And they have labor laws. Now he runs $8Mill a year as a 20 yr old as a mine boss. Not sure it has a LOT to do with age in farming either. Not for family. If the govt wants to be stupid about it and think they are "protecting" children with apprentice age restrictions, I'll just say -- letting a unfocused 16 yr old run an excavator highly supervised just might be an experience that will save his economic ass for life.

Labor laws do not apply to family operated business when the worker is a family member.

 

[Disir]

There was a guy here last election cycle that floated this 13th and 14th year crap. Now either he was not aware of vo tech or knew but clearly wanted to siphon off cash for the "business" of education. A&P does one additional year out of high school. However, you can take those courses to a university if you wish. You win your own airplane that last year. Technically--you are assigned to an airplane and you repair it. You spend about $1000 in tests but that's it. That's great if you don't want to go on to a university.

If you come from the land of DeVry as a trade school then you may not be aware of it.

There is no difference between the privatization promoted by Democrats and the privatization promoted by Republicans. It's all about a profit motive now.

Now, I have two more years of dealing with the education system at a personal level. I took my kid out of a school in another state that had few options but he wasn't going to be shot by gang bangers and he wasn't going to join any gangs and moved him to a place where he excels. Once I get him into college then I don't give a hot damn what you do with the k-12 education system.

 

[Correll]

None! Use computers intelligently like some people were talking about in 1996:

Bennett

Our educators can't even create a curated National Recommended Reading List.

The textbook publishing business would not like that. How many useless variations in math books have been published in the last 50 years?

That link looked pretty extensive. Care to give us a concise summary?



But, I also think that online education is where the future is at.

 

[Wry Catcher]

There was a guy here last election cycle that floated this 13th and 14th year crap. Now either he was not aware of vo tech or knew but clearly wanted to siphon off cash for the "business" of education. A&P does one additional year out of high school. However, you can take those courses to a university if you wish. You win your own airplane that last year. Technically--you are assigned to an airplane and you repair it. You spend about $1000 in tests but that's it. That's great if you don't want to go on to a university.

If you come from the land of DeVry as a trade school then you may not be aware of it.

There is no difference between the privatization promoted by Democrats and the privatization promoted by Republicans. It's all about a profit motive now.

Now, I have two more years of dealing with the education system at a personal level. I took my kid out of a school in another state that had few options but he wasn't going to be shot by gang bangers and he wasn't going to join any gangs and moved him to a place where he excels. Once I get him into college then I don't give a hot damn what you do with the k-12 education system.

Your last sentence tell me much more about you, thanks for that.

 

[Wry Catcher]

None! Use computers intelligently like some people were talking about in 1996:

Bennett

Our educators can't even create a curated National Recommended Reading List.

The textbook publishing business would not like that. How many useless variations in math books have been published in the last 50 years?

That link looked pretty extensive. Care to give us a concise summary?



But, I also think that online education is where the future is at.

School should be much more than learning by rote, and the socialization should begin in pre-school which teaches the basics of getting alone with others and learning by touching and doing. In fact putting a child in a chair and expecting them to sit still and be quiet, turns off too many children who do not thrive.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I would be more in favor of replacing the 11th and 12th grades with career skills training. Sometimes it’s the bright kids that would rather learn a trade than go to college for a Bull Shit degree.

That is exactly what I meant in this thread, by adding two more years to a high school diploma, for those who choose not to enter the military, seek a higher education and cannot afford a private school which may not even provide them with the MQ's to apply and be hired.

You're correct, some kids know what they want to be when they 'grow up' but many don't. My vision includes field visits and guest lectures from business, industry and government to tell them about their own careers, possibility of advancement and of course salary and benefits, in the first months of the 12th grade. Followed by a focus much like Job Corp., which incorporates tactile learning along with traditional education.

For example, a student interested in construction learns by building a foundation, framing, adding wiring and plumbing, sheet rocking, taping, painting and adding finished carpentry. Then, learning the needed classroom work in the classroom in the trade they are most interested in and develop the MQ's, including basic math trade connected with the job, and how to prepare a resume and have practice interviews.

 

[rightwinger]

I’d prefer to offer free/low cost community college to those who want it

 

[miketx]

Not every child seeks a four-year college degree upon completion of high school. Many want employment and to begin earning money.

Consider these bullet points;

• Teachers will come from business, industry and government.
• Students will be paid a minimum wage, and held to what is expected by future employers as to being on time, getting along with others and staying on task.
• Students will be introduced to the array of jobs listed here: Occupational Outlook Handbook: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
• Guest lectures and field trips will augment regular lessen plans
• Upon completion of the two-year course of study, the successful student will have all the tools necessary to apply for and secure entry level employment in their chosen field.
• these tools will include practice interviews and written resumes

Most communities have Jr. Colleges, which could incorporate such a two-year program, as well as a jumping off place for those who choose to transfer to a 4-year school.

What do you think?

Two more years of liberal indoctrination? No thanks.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Most communities have Jr. Colleges, which could incorporate such a two-year program, as well as a jumping off place for those who choose to transfer to a 4-year school.

THERE'S the path. K-12 has enough tasks on their plate. Get them out. Even EARLY out for trades, and specialty services. The Comm Colleges AND the trade schools that are making a comeback will do a better job.

If you live in a state that can afford subsidizing AA, AS degrees, like Tennessee just did --- even better.

And the message to the K-12 gulag is -- you better RAISE the expectations and shoot for getting kids to that "post secondary" level or you've failed them completely. Their lives are gonna depend on it...

Labor laws inhibit effective training in apprenticeship programs..

In some trades maybe. If the Union is picky. But Unions are not really concerned with careers. They only care about the definition of "the job". Don't give a **** about your ten year job role. That's why they are endangered. Because the definition of jobs changes YEARLY now. And you have to be more flexible. Do the data entry or reporting related to the job. Maybe even part of the material acquisition.

So screw them. Other than construction -- apprenticeships work fine and benefit both sides of the deal..

Kinda flaky that GOVT can have all the apprentices they want -- but make laws that prohibit it because it's predatory or not "fairly compensated". It's ON THE JOB TRAINING. Not employment in the strict sense.

If they unions didn't SQUEAL about it -- there wouldn't be so many laws.

It's the operation of equipment with moving parts that are restricted to kids 16-18.

Don't you watch Gold Rush. Parker was 14 when he worked his Grandpa's gold mine in Alaska. And they have labor laws. Now he runs $8Mill a year as a 20 yr old as a mine boss. Not sure it has a LOT to do with age in farming either. Not for family. If the govt wants to be stupid about it and think they are "protecting" children with apprentice age restrictions, I'll just say -- letting a unfocused 16 yr old run an excavator highly supervised just might be an experience that will save his economic ass for life.

True, as far as it goes. Not everyone is a fictional character or has family connections. Most at 16 have more interests in today than their future.

Putting the blame on Unions is nothing more than "ain't it awful", which seems to be the guiding ideology which frames the current iteration of conservatism.

More children died or were crippled before the stupid government stepped in and a Union was established, than ended up running a million dollar corporation.

Consider for example:

The Coal Mining Massacre America Forgot | History | Smithsonian

 

[Wry Catcher]

Not every child seeks a four-year college degree upon completion of high school. Many want employment and to begin earning money.

Consider these bullet points;

• Teachers will come from business, industry and government.
• Students will be paid a minimum wage, and held to what is expected by future employers as to being on time, getting along with others and staying on task.
• Students will be introduced to the array of jobs listed here: Occupational Outlook Handbook: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
• Guest lectures and field trips will augment regular lessen plans
• Upon completion of the two-year course of study, the successful student will have all the tools necessary to apply for and secure entry level employment in their chosen field.
• these tools will include practice interviews and written resumes

Most communities have Jr. Colleges, which could incorporate such a two-year program, as well as a jumping off place for those who choose to transfer to a 4-year school.

What do you think?

Two more years of liberal indoctrination? No thanks.

LOL, miketx, you truly are stupid, that's so sad.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I’d prefer to offer free/low cost community college to those who want it

Community College usually requires tuition, and the focus requires much of the same curriculum (history, social science, math, and physical and biological sciences) which a student seeking a trade or technology degree has had in their secondary education). Not all communities have a close by community college and high schools could accommodate more students, even if the 13th and 14th student body attended in the late afternoon and early evening. Also, most Community Colleges have an entrance exam, and require those who haven't mastered English or Math end up in Bone Head classes which undermines self confidence.

 

[rightwinger]

I’d prefer to offer free/low cost community college to those who want it

Community College usually requires tuition, and the focus requires much of the same curriculum (history, social science, math, and physical and biological sciences) which a student seeking a trade or technology degree has had in their secondary education). Not all communities have a close by community college and high schools could accommodate more students, even if the 13th and 14th student body attended in the late afternoon and early evening. Also, most Community Colleges have an entrance exam, and require those who haven't mastered English or Math end up in Bone Head classes which undermines self confidence.

Not everyone needs a secondary education
I would like to see more trade opportunities and job skills/ apprenticeships

 

[miketx]

Not every child seeks a four-year college degree upon completion of high school. Many want employment and to begin earning money.

Consider these bullet points;

• Teachers will come from business, industry and government.
• Students will be paid a minimum wage, and held to what is expected by future employers as to being on time, getting along with others and staying on task.
• Students will be introduced to the array of jobs listed here: Occupational Outlook Handbook: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
• Guest lectures and field trips will augment regular lessen plans
• Upon completion of the two-year course of study, the successful student will have all the tools necessary to apply for and secure entry level employment in their chosen field.
• these tools will include practice interviews and written resumes

Most communities have Jr. Colleges, which could incorporate such a two-year program, as well as a jumping off place for those who choose to transfer to a 4-year school.

What do you think?

Two more years of liberal indoctrination? No thanks.

LOL, miketx, you truly are stupid, that's so sad.

Oh I'm just calling it what it is. The schools are turning out illiterate imbeciles.