Author Debate: Influence of Christianity on America's Founders

[Picaro]

The xian automaton #17 fails to address Hall's Quaker contradiction in the video: how to support an oath, which is a copulation of church and state, while simultaneously supporting it.

Well, I'm not an Xian, and you aren't well read enough on this to have an opinion that has any bearing on reality. Quakers weren't the most important sect with any political influence, just because you found a YouTube somewhere and thought it would make you sound all intellectual n stuff if you posted it. The Virginia Anglicans were more important, as were the New England Congregationists, but both were less important combined then the evangelical Methodists, Presbytarians, and Baptists of the Great Awakenings, who out voted the rest. You can always just take your Prozac as prescribed if that bothers you a lot.

 

[Picaro]

Post # 17's weirdness stems from the xian faith, and Hall's contradiction does too. The Indigene represents the Quaker attempt to reconcile the infinite (their aligning as friends with the Indigene) as the colonies became established. That is why the constitutional convention sought to disenfranchise Quakers: god's math always becomes problematic with the infinite and remainders. The Great Awakenings I-IV also have the same problem which prompts evangelizations based on guilt and (vicarious) redemption. It becomes more clear why a pivot question in the video was asked from the audience by an ex-Quaker atheist:

'The Production of Atheism. It may indeed be the serenity of the philosopher, but achieving atheism (in the modern sense) was made possible, at least in part, by Christian theology. We have noted several reasons for the exceptional atheistic secretion of the latter, all of which are related to its persistence in -- and simultaneous resistance to -- representing the infinite. The Christian idea of an infinite, transcendent moralistic Entity is simply unbearable -- cognitively and coalitionally.'
(Shults, Iconoclastic Theology, p. 185 Secreting Atheism)

Says an emotionally disturbed pseudo-intellectual. lol we have diaries of the Convention, which makes the poster of post #20 look ridiculous.

 

[badger2]

Post #15's claim for Great Awakening (and its pathological math) are mentioned in the video at timepoint 23:14 'Frederick Douglas wrote that, "Revivals of religion and revivals of the slave trade go hand in hand." '

 

[badger2]

#21 We are basing our discourse on Rothbard's Conceived in Liberty, not youtube. There are many approaches to the exposing of religion as mental disease. Despite attempts to side-step the topic, which is religious influence on America's founders, no one should be forced to believe how the theological machine worked in the Colonies. As yet, no diary entries have been posted to this thread.

 

[badger2]

Important is to examine both the history and the principles that may have influenced the founders.

At timepoint 133 ' Supreme Court...."They didn't examine any of the principles, they just looked at the history. Same thing happened in the Bladensburg Cross case." '

 

[badger2]

timepoint 1 hour, 20 minutes, 33 seconds.

 

[badger2]

Timepoint

37:50 'It's important because courts are using it to interpret your rights today.'

38:07 'The court elevated history over legal principle.'

39:40 'citations for the bible'

39:43 ' It actually plummets during the constitutional convention years which I thought we were focusing on, to one citation every 16 publications. The study that he (Hall) cited actually says, quote, "The bible's prominence disappears, which is not surprising since the debate centered upon the specific institutions about which the bible has little to say." '

 

[badger2]

We think that post #17 introduced the first ad hominem attack, and for Great Awakenings, one does well to choose a reputable source to cite.Two of them are Rothbard and Taylor, neither one of which is mentioned on the wiki page. The claim of poster #17 is that there was a secret moral xian majority scribbling away into the night (a la John of Patmos) in diaries, of which we will show a "diary example" later. Note Taylor's smuggling of the concept "voluntaristic" into the text:

'The denomination clearly belongs to the Age of Mobilization. It is not a divinely established body (though in another sense, the broader "church" may be seen as such), but something we have to create, not just at our whim, but to fulfill the plan of God. In this, it resembles the new Republic as Providentially conceived in its civil religion. There is an affinity between the two, and each strengthened the other. That is, a voluntaristic dimension of the Great Awakening in the mid-eighteenth century obviously prepared the way for the revolutionary break of 1776; and in turn, the ethos of self-governing "independence" in the new Republic meant that the second Awakening in the early nineteenth century involved an even greater profusion of denominational initiatives than before.'
(Taylor C, A Secular Age, Ch. 12 The Age of Mobilization, p. 450)

Taylor explains a diversity of particularizations concerning religious denominations, though this is taking things out of context for all other non-religious persons involved in early America, Indigene included. The fragmenting, de-homogenization, still contains the pathology, right down to the individual. If the Awakenings were an influence, coercion, guilt, fear of god, and troubled spirit and economic forces were all parameters of it.

'So far we have been concentrating on the leading developments in (each colony [italics]) in the first half of the eighteenth century, in the "domestic" affairs, so to speak, peculiar to the colony. Now let us turn to the increasingly important experiences that were common to several of all of the colonies, experiences that helped to impart a greater degree of community in colonies that originated as completely separate and independent entities. Among these we can distinguish two categories: first, events and developments that, while still chiefly domestic to the colonies, permeated some of rall ot them (for example, such new developments as paper money or such intellectual currents as the Great Awakening); second, "foreign affairs" -- that is, the emergence of common relations and problems outside the colonies, specifically relations with Great Britain and the British Empire, with the other European colonies in North America (France and Spain), and with the Indians (the last two spheres often blending). Many of the predominantly domestic questions, of course, had external ramifications, particularly vis-a-vis Great Britain.'
(Rothbard MN, Conceived in Liberty, Ch. 26 Inflation and the Creation of Paper Money, p. 621)

' "It's like finding a lost letter from the past," says curator Bly Straube. Little by little, the things the colonists brought with them across the Atlantic joined their bodies in Virginia's strange soil, buried testaments to the hope which they embarked on an all too perilous journey. "The land we have searched out is a very good land, and if the Lord love us, he will bring our people to it, and give it to us for a possession." (Robert Johnson). p. 60: A black mineral crucifix that may have belonged to one of Jamestown's few Catholics speaks of the colonists' Christian faith, to which they hoped to convert the Indians.'
(Mann CC, America, Found and Lost, The Real Story of Jamestown: How Settlers Destroyed a Native Empire and Changed the Landscape from the Ground Up, National Geographic, May 2007)

 

[badger2]

#28 should read "permeated some or all of them." A worthwhile comparison for the introduction of paper money is the Siane (New Guinea) example in A Thousand Plateaus, forthcoming. There would have been a centrifugal force of this money distribution, reminiscent of the Corinthian tyranny, likely coming from Philadelphia.

 

[james bond]

So the state won in the Bladensburg WW I peace cross case. Haha. It makes no mention of Jesus, is a symbol for peace, and has history behind it. FU atheists, humanists, and the Satanists and their Satanic Temple and Baphomet statue

"A federal court in Maryland has ruled that a cross-shaped war memorial in Prince George's County is constitutional, after an organization argued the structure's presence on public land is a violation of the First Amendment.

The U.S. District Court for the District of Maryland ruled Monday that even though the Bladensburg World War I Veterans Memorial, a 40-foot-tall monument erected in 1925, takes the shape of a cross, its purpose is not primarily religious. Therefore, the court found, it does not violate the First Amendment's provision that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

Known locally as the Peace Cross, the structure that stands at the intersection of Route 450 and Alternate U.S. 1 neither depicts nor mentions Jesus.

The ruling was a victory for the co-defendants in the case, the Maryland-National Capital Park and Planning Commission, the government entity that owns and controls the land on which the cross stands, and the American Legion, which erected it 90 years ago and continues to use the site for Memorial Day and Veterans Day celebrations.

It marked a setback for the American Humanist Association, a Washington-based group that describes its mission as bringing about "a progressive society where being 'good without a god' is an accepted way of life" and strengthening secular influence in government."

Legion prevails in Bladensburg Cross Case

 

[Taz]

So the state won in the Bladensburg WW I peace cross case. Haha. It makes no mention of Jesus, is a symbol for peace, and has history behind it. FU atheists, humanists, and the Satanists and their Satanic Temple and Baphomet statue

"A federal court in Maryland has ruled that a cross-shaped war memorial in Prince George's County is constitutional, after an organization argued the structure's presence on public land is a violation of the First Amendment.

The U.S. District Court for the District of Maryland ruled Monday that even though the Bladensburg World War I Veterans Memorial, a 40-foot-tall monument erected in 1925, takes the shape of a cross, its purpose is not primarily religious. Therefore, the court found, it does not violate the First Amendment's provision that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

Known locally as the Peace Cross, the structure that stands at the intersection of Route 450 and Alternate U.S. 1 neither depicts nor mentions Jesus.

The ruling was a victory for the co-defendants in the case, the Maryland-National Capital Park and Planning Commission, the government entity that owns and controls the land on which the cross stands, and the American Legion, which erected it 90 years ago and continues to use the site for Memorial Day and Veterans Day celebrations.

It marked a setback for the American Humanist Association, a Washington-based group that describes its mission as bringing about "a progressive society where being 'good without a god' is an accepted way of life" and strengthening secular influence in government."

Legion prevails in Bladensburg Cross Case

That cross is to show that god won't save Christians.

 

[james bond]

So the state won in the Bladensburg WW I peace cross case. Haha. It makes no mention of Jesus, is a symbol for peace, and has history behind it. FU atheists, humanists, and the Satanists and their Satanic Temple and Baphomet statue

"A federal court in Maryland has ruled that a cross-shaped war memorial in Prince George's County is constitutional, after an organization argued the structure's presence on public land is a violation of the First Amendment.

The U.S. District Court for the District of Maryland ruled Monday that even though the Bladensburg World War I Veterans Memorial, a 40-foot-tall monument erected in 1925, takes the shape of a cross, its purpose is not primarily religious. Therefore, the court found, it does not violate the First Amendment's provision that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

Known locally as the Peace Cross, the structure that stands at the intersection of Route 450 and Alternate U.S. 1 neither depicts nor mentions Jesus.

The ruling was a victory for the co-defendants in the case, the Maryland-National Capital Park and Planning Commission, the government entity that owns and controls the land on which the cross stands, and the American Legion, which erected it 90 years ago and continues to use the site for Memorial Day and Veterans Day celebrations.

It marked a setback for the American Humanist Association, a Washington-based group that describes its mission as bringing about "a progressive society where being 'good without a god' is an accepted way of life" and strengthening secular influence in government."

Legion prevails in Bladensburg Cross Case

That cross is to show that god won't save Christians.

Satan won't, but Jesus already saved and OSAS.

 

[badger2]

#32: 'no one comes to the Father but through Me." Both capitalized. Can anyone imagine nazism without daddy? Timepoint 38:07 'elevated history over legal principle,' is SCOTUS on Bladensburg. #30's report is from 2015. There are more recent ones that include SCOTUS' dissenting views. It is interesting to read the comments in the 2015 report.

 

[badger2]

The second report comes closer to revealing the fascism behind the SCOTUS decision, 'promising great trouble ahead....'

townhall.com/tipsheet/cortneyobrien/2019/06/20/bladensburg-cross-scotus-case-n2547868
(URL functions when typed in the spacebar)

The Bladensburg Cross Case is a National Disgrace
abovethelaw.com/2019/06/bladensburg-cross-case-is-a-national-disgrace/
(URL functions if typed in the spacebar)

 

[badger2]

In comparing the discourse of post #32, there is

The Cross of Christ and the Swastika
(URL functions if typed in the spacebar)
research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/christuskreuz.htm
'....The church must affirm without reservation: Adolf Hitler's total state, the last bulwark against the Satan of Bolshevism.'

Using the little screenal space toys such as can be seen in post #30, compares the crooks of the cross to an encounter with a pinball violently propelled outward by centrifugal force. Swastikoschismogenesis, the kuklos exothen caused by the creation of division, whilst Bladensburg equates the monument to valor, the better part of the latter being discretion.

Schismogenesis
Schismogenesis - Wikipedia

In Taylor's A Secular Age, on the Great Awakening, Taylor tries to pervert immance back into transcendence for his own (and others') satisfaction after he has smuggled the presupposition, "voluntaristic," into the history of the Great Awakening (post #28):

'Morality without God may no longer be inconceivable, even though still not fully credible for us. But further experience may also entrench it. And there are cases where it greatly strengthens it, even converts us from an initial stance of immanence. A good example, discussed in the previous chapter, were the conversion experiences of the Great Awakening and its successors, whereby people felt empowered by God or Christ to live up to demands of discipline and effort that their life laid on them, becoming sober, productive providers, for instance. This kind of experience continues today, as we saw in the spreading of Pentecostalism, as well as in extra-Christian forms, as with Black Muslims in the U.S.A. But this is only one among many forms of conversion narrative in modern times.
....
In the U.S.A., the country from about 1800 is in the grips of the "Second Awakening" and the forming of an evangelical consensus, which somewhat marginalizes the Deistic outlook of so many of the founding Fathers of the Republic. Church membership begins its steady rise, which continues into the twentieth century.....We see this dynamic played out in France and Spain, even to some extent in Prussia. In Britain, on the other hand, we saw that much popular anti-clericalism found expression in Nonconformity. But even here an alternative stream was there from the beginning, in figures like Tom Paine and Godwin; whereas ideas of this sort didn't have the same impact in the early history of the United States. The imprint of an impressive array of Deists among the founders, most notably Jefferson, seems to have been largely effaced by the second Great Awakening.'
(Taylor, op cit pp.322, 526, 545)

 

[badger2]

In the video at timepoint 23:14 'Frederick Douglas wrote that "Revivals of religion and revivals of the slave trade go hand in hand."

Rothbard dedicates an entire chapter to The Great Awakening:

'Still, by the end of the first third of the eighteenth century, liberalism was advancing and religion was definitely declining as a vital force in the lives of the people.
....
Into this relaxing atmosphere came a great reaction, which has become known in rather loaded terms as the Great Awakening. Since the Great Awakening was certainly a peoples' movement, it has been dubbed as necessarily a progressive force by Marxist and neo-Marxist historians. But it was nothing of the sort. The Great Awakening was a profoundly reactionary counterblow to the emergence of a liberal and more rational and cosmopolitan religious atmosphere. It set itself determinedly against all that was enlightened, and constituted an attempt to return to pure Calvinism of the previous century. This is particularly true of the form taken by the great Awakening in New England, where the religious revival had its most eminent leader.

The founder of the Great Awakening in New England was the Reverend Jonathan Edwards, minister of the important inland town of Northampton, Massachusetts. Born in Connecticut, young Edwards, who came from a long line of Puritan ministers on both his father's side and his mother's, was graduated from and taught at Yale, the center of Puritan orthodoxy. He then took up his post at Northampton in 1727. Edwards was horrified to find Northampton happily filled with a most un-Puritan addiction to "mirth and jollity," including the frequenting of taverns. Edwards began to thunder at these modern corruptions, and moved on to rail at the rising menace of Arminianism and its "papist" view that salvation was a function of man's free will and his consequent good works. What was happening to the good old creed of their fathers: of the depravity of man, of the predestination of the elect, of the reliance on faith and not on reason? Was the pervasive Calvinist fear of hellfire and damnation to be replaced by the modern namby-pamby view that God is love? To the sinners -- and who is not a sinner? -- Edwards warned: "The God that holds you over the pit of hell much as anyone holds a spider or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire."

It is possible to pinpoint the time when the rapidly growing influence of this oratory reached a crisis and accelerated and burst into flame: December 1734. Religious concerns swept the people of Northampton: "other discourse than of the things of religion would scarcely be tolerated in any company." In an orgy of proclaiming their repentance, over three hundred people of Northampton soon professed conversion to the true faith. Children formed prayer groups to repent the monstrousness of their sins, and Edwards' own uncle committed suicide in remorse. The intense religious excitement faded in Northampton by the spring, but the precedent had been set and the revivals of the Great Awakening spread to other towns in the colonies.

Apart from the content of the creed, the mechanism and strategy of the revival movement was profoundly reactionary: in contrast to the older Calvinism, it functioned by whipping up the emotions of the masses rather than by serving or convincing their intellect. With emotional frenzy and hysteria suspending sober and rational conviction, the leaders of the revivals soon reached the point of making this frenzy the acid test of a person's true Christianity: a man, even a minister of Christ, was still a sinner unless he too had been born again, and experienced conversion by emotional hysteria.'
(Rothbard, Conceived in Liberty, Ch. 29 The Great Awakening)