Atheist soldier says Army punished him

[Shogun]

So, you dont want to have to tell me to whom or what they referred to when they used the term "Creator", in its capitalized form.

That's OK -- if I were you, I'd run away from that question, too.

I made that very clear when I POSTED THE VERY WORDS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON about the DOI.

It's cool, dude.. If I were you i'd hide from that fact too...

You might learn a thing or two if you scroll up and treat yourself the the mans' very own words regarding the necessity of using the vocab that he did. I have to give him credit for knowing just what to say in order to make the christians hop.

What does:

We were under conviction of the necessity of arousing our people from the lethargy into which they had fallen as to passing events; and thought that the appointment of a day of general fasting & prayer would be most likely to call up & alarm their attention.

say to you about his motivation in using the vocab that he did?

 

[M14 Shooter]

I made that very clear when I POSTED THE VERY WORDS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON about the DOI.

Still no answer?
What a surprise.

You might learn a thing or two if you scroll up...

I'm not going to page thru your drivel when you can simply answer the question directly:
To whom or what did they refer to when they used the term "Creator", in its capitalized form.

 

[Shogun]

Still no answer?
What a surprise.

I did answer.. withthe words of Thomas Jefferson. SHOCKER that you have no intention of taking the mans own words into consideration.


I'm not going to page thru your drivel when you can simply answer the question directly:
To whom or what did they refer to when they used the term "Creator", in its capitalized form.

he used the word CREATOR much like a used car saleman uses the word HONEST. You don't need to page through anything since I posted the specific quote in the above post. Feel free to thrash around like a fish on a hook though. I realize you really, REALLY don't want to admit why the Treaty of Tripoli says what it does.


We were under conviction of the necessity of arousing our people from the lethargy into which they had fallen as to passing events; and thought that the appointment of a day of general fasting & prayer would be most likely to call up & alarm their attention.
Thomas Jefferson regarding the DOI.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I did answer.. withthe words of Thomas Jefferson. SHOCKER that you have no intention of taking the mans own words into consideration.

Really?
Since the time I asked the question, you posted the words of TJ describing what he held as the meaning of the term "Creator", in its capitalized form?
What post?
And what of the other people involved?

 

[Shogun]

ahh.. you are going to play the semantics game, eh?

Hey, convincing you really is not skin off of my nuts. If you want to ignore the FACT of Jefferson's own words regarding the DOI and the treaty of tripoly then so be it.


which, by your own logic, where does it say Jesus Christ and how do you know the word CREATOR doesn't mean the flying spaghetti monster? See, we can both play semantic games.


but, do continue to avoid historical documents though.. clearly, when early congress retified a treaty that specifically states a non-affiliation with christianity it's just a giant atheist fabrication.

 

[M14 Shooter]

ahh.. you are going to play the semantics game, eh?

So, again, you run away from the question.

C'mon tough guy -- tell me what to whom or what they refered to when they used the term "Creator", in its capitalized form.

While you;re at it, tell me tell me what to whom or what they refered to when they used the term "Supreme Judge", in its capitalized form.

And, since you're there... tell me what to whom or what they refered to when they invoked the protection of "divine Providence".

I mean, if you're SO sure of yourself and your argument, this should be easy.

 

[Shogun]

So, again, you run away from the question.

C'mon tough guy -- tell me what to whom or what they refered to when they used the term "Creator", in its capitalized form.

I mean, if you're SO sure of yourself and your argument, this should be easy.

Ok, clearly he was letting us know that the FSM, in his noodly wisdom, was the source of our inalienable rights.

can you prove that this is untrue?

Now, prove that CREATOR didn't mean FSM.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Ok, clearly he was letting us know that the FSM, in his noodly wisdom, was the source of our inalienable rights.

How stupid of me to think that you could actually address the questions put to you.

But, just in case you DO have some intellectual honesty, I will ask again:

-Tell me what to whom or what they refered to when they used the term "Creator", in its capitalized form.

-Tell me tell me what to whom or what they refered to when they used the term "Supreme Judge", in its capitalized form.

-Tell me what to whom or what they refered to when they invoked the protection of "divine Providence".

can you prove that this is untrue?

Its up to you to prove your claims, not for me to disprove them.

 

[Shogun]

How stupid of me to think that you could actually address the questions put to you.

HA! yea.. lecture me on avoiding a question after you refuse to address the treaty of tripoli and Jefferson's own words regarding using religion to stir up the population in support of independence. It's probably not ironic or anything.

But, just in case you DO have some intellectual honesty, I will ask again:


INTELLECTUAL HONESTY? HA! tell me that joke again after you address the Treaty of Tripoly.


-Tell me what to whom or what they refered to when they used the term "Creator", in its capitalized form.

The answer to your question is Any generic god that was applicable to ANY colonial american be they Quaker, catholic or whatever was applicable in order to rouse support for a revolution. You seem to think it means Jesus Christ yet there is no evidence to suggest it was that god or the FSM.

It's cool dude.. I've had you in check since posting Jefferson's own words on the subject.


-Tell me tell me what to whom or what they refered to when they used the term "Supreme Judge", in its capitalized form.

According to the sords of the Treaty of Tripoly it could mean Allah, jebus, the FSM, Buddah, etc.. Can you prove otherwise? I mean, don't cry on my shoulder just yet, dude. Can you or can you not prove that CREATOR means jebus christ rather than Allah?


-Tell me what to whom or what they refered to when they invoked the protection of "divine Providence".


Again, could have been a wide array of mythological identities.. After all, freemasons have never been accused of practicing pagan worship.. And, we sure do know that none of the FFs were associated with freemasons!

Like I said, Jefferson's own words convey that they used religious vocab in order to muster the population, not to define this nation as a christian nation...

which you would see if you wanted to consider:

The treaty was signed at Tripoli on November 4, 1796 and at Algiers (for a third-party witness) on January 3, 1797, finally receiving ratification from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797 and signed by President John Adams on June 10, 1797.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli



Its up to you to prove your claims, not for me to disprove them.


Treaty of Tripoli.

ZING!

 

[BrianH]

SHOGUN
"HA! yea.. lecture me on avoiding a question after you refuse to address the treaty of tripoli and Jefferson's own words regarding using religion to stir up the population in support of independence. It's probably not ironic or anything."


So religion did play a part? I thought it didn't? IF I read that correctly, it played a part of massing support behind independence. You just contradicted yourself. Good Day

 

[M14 Shooter]

HA! yea.. lecture me on avoiding a question after you refuse to address the treaty of tripoli and Jefferson's own words regarding using religion to stir up the population in support of independence. It's probably not ironic or anything.

Nice try. None of these things address the question I asked you, and since I didn't in any way engage in any discussion of these topics, there;s no reason for me to do so now.

So, actually answer the questions, or admit you cannot.

The answer to your question is Any generic god that was applicable to ANY colonial american be they Quaker, catholic or whatever

Show this to be true.

You seem to think it means Jesus Christ

Show this to be true.
Given that your entire argument seems to be based on the idea that I thik they were referring to JC, you'll need to do this for your argument to hold any water whatsoever.

Tell me tell me what to whom or what they refered to when they used the term "Supreme Judge", in its capitalized form.

According to the sords of the Treaty of Tripoly it could mean Allah, jebus, the FSM, Buddah, etc..

I didnt ask you what it COULD mean, I asked you what they DID mean, in the context used.

Can you prove otherwise?

Again, its not up to me to prove or disproive your assertions.

-Tell me what to whom or what they refered to when they invoked the protection of "divine Providence".

Again, could have been a wide array of mythological identities.

Again, I didnt ask you what it COULD mean, I asked you what they DID mean, in the context used.

It's cool dude.. I've had you in check since posting Jefferson's own words on the subject.

That's just as likely as you stroking yourself under the desk as you drool over that picture of Adam you posted.

C'mon son -- tell me, specifcally, to whom or what they were referring to.

Never mind that you're necessarily admitting that they WERE referring to a Divine Power, whatever His name might be.

 

[midcan5]

back on topic:

And who agrees the soldier has every right as a freedom loving, and serving his country American, to discuss atheism just as his Christian counterparts discuss their beliefs openly and not be penalized? Last I checked we removed religious tests long long ago.

 

[M14 Shooter]

back on topic:
And who agrees the soldier has every right as a freedom loving, and serving his country American, to discuss atheism just as his Christian counterparts discuss their beliefs openly...

This is a freedom of speech issue, not a freedom of religion issue.

We all know (well, OK, maybe we don't ALL know) that soldiers do not have the same freedom of speech as civilians.

 

[Shogun]

SHOGUN
"HA! yea.. lecture me on avoiding a question after you refuse to address the treaty of tripoli and Jefferson's own words regarding using religion to stir up the population in support of independence. It's probably not ironic or anything."


So religion did play a part? I thought it didn't? IF I read that correctly, it played a part of massing support behind independence. You just contradicted yourself. Good Day

hehehehe...

No, I've stated that this nation is not a christian nation as cited by quotes from Jefferson and the Treaty of Tripoli. If culture were all that significant then we'd have to give credit to whoever Hammurabi was worshipping, eh?

Perhaps you should read my posts a little more carefully.

 

[mattskramer]

This is a freedom of speech issue, not a freedom of religion issue.

We all know (well, OK, maybe we don't ALL know) that soldiers do not have the same freedom of speech as civilians.

You be the judge: Should the soldier have every right as a freedom loving man serving his country American to discuss atheism just as his Christian counterparts discuss their beliefs openly? Yes or No

 

[midcan5]

M14Shooter, So what you are saying is the Military has a religious test? That is unconstitutional.

 

[M14 Shooter]

You be the judge: Should the soldier have every right as a freedom loving man serving his country American to discuss atheism just as his Christian counterparts discuss their beliefs openly? Yes or No

If that discussion falls under the usual free speech preclusions that solders suffer, then no.

 

[jillian]

This is a freedom of speech issue, not a freedom of religion issue.

We all know (well, OK, maybe we don't ALL know) that soldiers do not have the same freedom of speech as civilians.

True, but if Christians are allowed to say/do things that atheists are not, THAT is a first amendment/freedom of religion issue.

 

[M14 Shooter]

M14Shooter, So what you are saying is the Military has a religious test?

Read what I said.
This is a free speech issue, not a freedom of religion issue.

 

[M14 Shooter]

True

I know.