ATF Atrocity

[garyd]

Note to the few who don't get it the BATF fabricates evidence at will. The last thing posted Diuretic is little more than an attempt at character assassination. Had contact with?? What sort of contact??? Did he dial them as a wrong number or they him? Did he regualrly attend their meetings? What precisely do they mean by having contact with this group? And exactly what does it have to do with the charges against him. He's a retired colonel in the military, looking like and Arrogant prick and passing it off as self confidence is one of the things you learn as a Plebe at West Point and may well be part of the OCS curriculum. And if you are going to convict people based on looks yu ought to be excluded from the Jury pool.

 

[Diuretic]

Which has exactly nothing to do with whether the weapon was an automatic or not.

No, it's much more complex, it actually goes to the veracity of the charge against the defendant but please do continue to take a laughingly simpllstic approach to cases like this.

Just because one owns books on weapons and how to change them does not mean they have done so. Further IF he had altered the weapon they would have been able to charge him with OWNING a Machine Gun. They could not because the weapon was NOT altered. I suggest YOU stop with the simplistic garbage.

The weapon malfunctioned. This is a case of the Government going after someone they personally do not like and doing so illegally. They do not like his associations so used this to get him. The word for that is despotic.

Possession of books on a topic signify interest in that topic. That of itself doesn't prove an action but it does go towards demonstrating an interest. Now, if there were some specialist tools that were needed or those operations described in the books and if there were evidence of a workbench or workshop set up to carry out those operations that would be useful evidence.

This is confusing without more info. If the weapon wasn't altered then how was he convicted of transferring it?

 

[Diuretic]

"...we know that the government has evidence of Mr. Olofson's innocence and through discovery they are required to provide the defense with this, what they term exculpatory information, because the government knows that Mr. Olofson is innocent and there are a couple of reasons that the government knows that Mr. Olofson is innocent because at the same time they were prosecuting Mr. Olofson for illegal transfer of a machine gun, they said it was because it contained the M-16 trigger parts but what they refused to show the judge was that SGW Olympic Arms prior to 1986 made all AR-15 semi-automatic rifles with M-16 trigger parts and that the government in 1986 recognized that there was a possibility of a malfunctioning occurring with certain ammunition, depending on the wear of the gun, fouling and that the guns could go full auto without the user knowing it and they posed a safety hazard and that the ATF mandated Olympic Arms to recall all of these guns and modify the trigger component so that this malfunction couldn't happen. We asked the government to produce this evidence so that the judge and the jury could see it. Mr. Olofson's attorneys asked for it and the ATF chief counsels' office responded to the US attorneys' office and said that it contained tax information, therefore, it would be against the law for the judge to even view the document and that His Honor would have to take the ATF chief counsels' office at their word..." — Len Savage - Radio Interview

Did the defence put this information to the court? That would seem to be relevant. Couldn't they call an expert witness to provide this evidence in defence?

 

[Diuretic]

Enter Len Savage (See “Failing the Test,” July 2005), President of Historic Arms, LLC, brought in by Olofson’s defense to testify the automatic fire was not by design or intent, but rather by mechanical failure, and that the firearm in question was simply a semiautomatic rifle that needed to be repaired.

The opposition would have none of that. Savage was not permitted to personally examine the rifle — not even to touch it. He was required to observe as the ATF officer opened it for inspection. His professional credentials were challenged by the prosecution, who wanted his testimony excluded, even though Savage is a firearm designer by profession, and the government’s expert witness received all of his training in the 2-1/2 years he’d been with the bureau. Then the prosecution reneged on its pledge not to sequester witnesses, and had Savage removed from the courtroom so he could not hear the government’s testimony.

So in the end, it didn’t matter this was merely a case of a “hammer follow.”

It didn’t matter the rifle in question had not been intentionally modified for select fire, or that it did not have an M16 bolt carrier or sear, that it did not show any signs of machining or drilling, or that that model had even been recalled a few years back.

It didn’t matter that, when asked if he’d test fired the gun, Savage testified “From my examination and from what I saw on the [ATF test] video I wouldn’t want to attempt it … the video shows the guy who was shooting it was so afraid to fire it from the shoulder he had to hold it out in front of him. So he knew it was dangerous.”

It didn’t matter the government had repeatedly failed to replicate automatic fire until they replaced the ammunition with a softer primer type. It didn’t even matter that the prosecution admitted it was not important to prove the gun would do it again if the test were conducted today.

What mattered was the government’s position that none of the above was relevant because “[T]here’s no indication it makes any difference under the statute. If you pull the trigger once and it fires more than one round, no matter what the cause it’s a machine gun.”

No matter what the cause.

GUNS Magazine GUNS Rights Watch​

So, the defence did have an expert witness (I should have read on before posting my previous post). But interesting about him being removed - here a witness can't be in court until they've given their evidence, then they're permitted to sit in the body of the court for the rest of the case if they wish.

I wonder if this is a case of there being a really crappy piece of legislation in place?

 

[Diuretic]

Overzelous prosecutor with and agenda and/or a piss poor statute.

I REALLY should read the whole thread before posting

 

[Dr Grump]

I admit I was a bit sus about this case, I did think this bloke was getting railroaded. I'm not so sure now. I still would need to read a lot more before being convinced all was above board but I know bullshit and propaganda when I see it and I'm starting to think there's a bit of that around.

Also this little nugget from the lin:

previous gun-related convictions, including carrying a concealed weapon with his children trick-or-treating. He also noted that Olofson was reprimanded for corrupting Army computers and perhaps providing militia groups access to sensitive information.

Guy is another State's rightest who wants to live outside the law. Hope he has a great vacation...

 

[Diuretic]

Note to the few who don't get it the BATF fabricates evidence at will. The last thing posted Diuretic is little more than an attempt at character assassination. Had contact with?? What sort of contact??? Did he dial them as a wrong number or they him? Did he regualrly attend their meetings? What precisely do they mean by having contact with this group? And exactly what does it have to do with the charges against him. He's a retired colonel in the military, looking like and Arrogant prick and passing it off as self confidence is one of the things you learn as a Plebe at West Point and may well be part of the OCS curriculum. And if you are going to convict people based on looks yu ought to be excluded from the Jury pool.

Hey gary - any evidence the BATF fabricates at will? And you have the cheek to accuse me of character assassination?

As for the rest of it. Ever fronted a jury as a witness? One of the things they do is look right at you, very carefully, to decide if you're lying or telling the truth. First impressions.

If I were this bloke's defence lawyer I would be sending him along for lessons in how not to look like an arrogant prick - for his own good. I would be trying very hard to exclude any evidence about his associations or interests, except where it could be proven that he was a Rotarian, volunteered his time for his local community, was kind to children and dogs and was a general wholesome bloke.

 

[Diuretic]

Also this little nugget from the lin:

previous gun-related convictions, including carrying a concealed weapon with his children trick-or-treating. He also noted that Olofson was reprimanded for corrupting Army computers and perhaps providing militia groups access to sensitive information.
......

It seems that evidence of previous convictions was introduced - must be some sort of similar fact evidence process. I do think it's relevant to prove this bloke's proclivities. But I must admit to being uncomfortable about "perhaps providing..." If it wasn't proven then it shouldn't have been allowed in front of the jury.

 

[Dr Grump]

Also this little nugget from the lin:

previous gun-related convictions, including carrying a concealed weapon with his children trick-or-treating. He also noted that Olofson was reprimanded for corrupting Army computers and perhaps providing militia groups access to sensitive information.
......

It seems that evidence of previous convictions was introduced - must be some sort of similar fact evidence process. I do think it's relevant to prove this bloke's proclivities. But I must admit to being uncomfortable about "perhaps providing..." If it wasn't proven then it shouldn't have been allowed in front of the jury.

I agree, to a degree. If it walks, quacks and looks like a duck, it probably is...:O)

 

[Amanda]

I wouldn't be surprised to see more cases like this once our new administration gets settled in. Personally, I don't see the problem of people knowing how to mod weapons. And I know that parts can wear down on things, so this isn't a clear case of 2 + 2 = 4 in my eyes.

 

[Ravi]

I wouldn't be surprised to see more cases like this once our new administration gets settled in. Personally, I don't see the problem of people knowing how to mod weapons. And I know that parts can wear down on things, so this isn't a clear case of 2 + 2 = 4 in my eyes.

Most ATFers are conservative. At least that's my experience. I know one of them, I'll ask him what he thinks of this case.

 

[Amanda]

I wouldn't be surprised to see more cases like this once our new administration gets settled in. Personally, I don't see the problem of people knowing how to mod weapons. And I know that parts can wear down on things, so this isn't a clear case of 2 + 2 = 4 in my eyes.

Most ATFers are conservative. At least that's my experience. I know one of them, I'll ask him what he thinks of this case.

People still have to do their jobs. Doesn't matter if they agree with policies or not, they still have to follow orders.

 

[rayboyusmc]

President Hussein will be using the ATF to prosecute fire arms owners for pedantic issues such as this...

And the camel you rode in on, Pogo. This particular incident is more part of Bush's than Obama's presidency.

No one is going to take our guns away. Register, yes. Waiting period, yes.
Total confiscation, no fucking way right wing bullshit.

You'll have to prey these out my hands.

 

[Diuretic]

President Hussein will be using the ATF to prosecute fire arms owners for pedantic issues such as this...

And the camel you rode in on, Pogo. This particular incident is more part of Bush's than Obama's presidency.

No one is going to take our guns away. Register, yes. Waiting period, yes.
Total confiscation, no fucking way right wing bullshit.

You'll have to prey these out my hands.

What if I hit you over the head and stole them?

Nice pieces by the way

 

[Sky Dancer]

NRA atrocity stories typically leave out key facts:
ATF UNDER SIEGE - TIME

 

[del]

NRA atrocity stories typically leave out key facts:
ATF UNDER SIEGE - TIME

that's to make up for chris.

 

[Sky Dancer]

NRA atrocity stories typically leave out key facts:
ATF UNDER SIEGE - TIME

that's to make up for chris.

Huh?

 

[007]

My take... the ATF has had their eye on this guy for quite some time. They think he's another Ruby Ridge or Branch Dividion in the making, and they just wanted him gone. So they rail roaded him on whatever they had, even if they had to bend the law to get it done.

I wish "people" had the kind of power the "government" has. Maybe we wouldn't be where we're at. Maybe we wouldn't have Ruby Ridges.

 

[Missourian]

NRA atrocity stories typically leave out key facts:
ATF UNDER SIEGE - TIME

I think you should read the whole article Jalu.



The bureau is not the jackbooted monolith of N.R.A. lore, however. Far from it: court documents and internal reports uncovered in a two-month TIME investigation reveal ATF as a divided and troubled agency far more likely to abuse the rights of its own employees than those of law-abiding citizens.

If anything, its internal troubles have impaired its law-enforcement abilities by embroiling agents and managers in a web of in-house scandals and divisive controversies. The agency faces a class action by black agents who claim widespread discrimination and intimidation, including the posting at one office of a "State of Oklahoma ****** Hunting License." Last week charges resurfaced that ATF agents attended a racist gathering in Tennessee, the annual "Good O' Boys Roundup." Agents complain too of a management culture that doles harsh discipline to agents but goes to great lengths to protect its managers. In one case, a former head of its Dallas office who sexually harassed an employee received a demotion and transfer -- to the Virgin Islands.

"Any agent who's honest with you will tell you this agency has to be gutted," says Diane Klipfel, a supervisory agent in ATF's Chicago division who is mired in a battle with the bureau that began when she accused her commanders of corruption.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

If one believes that, for example, the Government may collapse, owning books on how to do things now illegal makes sense , if those things will help you survive in a new lawless world of anarchy.

The weapon WAS NOT MODIFIED. It does not matter how many books he had on HOW TO MODIFY the weapon. It would have been a sperate charge and easily sustained. Modifying the weapon is obvious and you can not hide it.

Read the articles and the charges and the court case. He did not alter the weapon, they never claimed he altered it. What they did is confuse a jury and then lie to them. They denied the accused of his rights to a competent defense and they refused to allow his expert witness the right to put on such a defense.

They used innuando and out right fabrications to build a house of cards. Then they hamstrung the defense and prevented them from knocking down the house.

This Country has NUMEROUS example of the Government through the ATF doing illegal things. They have killed people in what amounted to government sanctioned murder before. They have seized weapons illegal and when ORDERED by Courts to return them simply refused. They have been ordered by courts to pay restitution and simply refused. They have been caught manufacturing evidence and nothing is ever done about it.

At Waco they claimed the group was illegally buying weapons. What they did not tell you is that at least 2 members of the compound had Fire License Licenses to buy and sell weapons provided BY the Government and ATF canceled those permits JUST before the raid without ever informing the owners of the Licenses.

ATF is a rogue agency.